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Seen Brokeback Mountain? Thoughts? (possible spoilers)
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I saw it a few days ago and I really can't believe what a beautiful and haunting movie it was. The main focus of the movie is love in all its forms and the sad fact that love can't always conquer everything. I've always thought of myself as accepting of homosexual relationships but I never really thought of them as having the same feelings that a man and a woman can have for each other.
The first sex scene was uncomfortable to watch but as the movie progressed, I forgot about my discomfort and treated the characters as I would any other. The sad thing is that the people who really should see this movie will never see it because they can't get past their own desire to focus on the homosexuality rather than the genuine love.
Ultimately, what this movie tries to say is that the emotion of love is connected to itself in all of its forms and is never as simple as we want it to be.
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"This show is filmed before a live studio audience as soon as someone removes that dead guy!" - Stephen Colbert
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S P O I L E R
Near the end of the movie when Ennus finds out that Jake has died I interpreted the scene as he was killed by a bunch of men who found out he was gay. Whereas a friend thought it was Ennus' idea of what happened (relating it back to the dead man he saw as a kid). Whats the general opinion of this scene?
I don't often see movies more than once - usually due to cable replays. Has anyone seen this movie more than once? Does it lose or gain anything in the repeat? The reason I am asking is I am thinking of buying the DVD when it becomes available.
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It was a very beautiful movie and it shows that gay love is not different from heterosexual love. And even today there are still lots of ignorant people that would murder others just because of their sexual orientation. And I think it was important to show that because it reflects reality.
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I have no problem with gay people in general, but I dont want to see a gay love story for a movie. I think most of America feels the same. I'm not going to apologize for it because bluntly, its not wrong to dislike it.
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simonjames: that's a good question, because 1) Ennis's childhood trauma is only shown as a memory flashback and 2) jack's death is shown in the same way.
Roger Ebert summed it up when he asked: Is that the way it actually happened, or is that just the way Ennis saw it?
We know that Jack didn't die the way his wife explained over the phone, but also we know that the "flashback" may not be correct.
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Thoughts?
Anne Hathaway nudiditiness ++
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In both the novella and the movie, Ennis is just making an educated assumption of what happened to Jack Twist. While it is never revealed exactly what happened to Jack, Anne Proulx's words suggest that Ennis' assumption is closer to the truth despite the story Jack's wife's tells about the exploding tire.
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Cartman: It was about gay cowboys eating puddin', wasn't it?
Stan: Yeah, pretty much.
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"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
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Meh, it's just a movie. It is selling on the gay element. Wouldn't be very sellable without it. Neither to straight people nor gay.
Cowboys + gay love = sellable drama. Actually it's a chickflick.
cheers
W-Y
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Originally Posted by UNTeMac
I saw it a few days ago and I really can't believe what a beautiful and haunting movie it was. The main focus of the movie is love in all its forms and the sad fact that love can't always conquer everything. I've always thought of myself as accepting of homosexual relationships but I never really thought of them as having the same feelings that a man and a woman can have for each other.
The first sex scene was uncomfortable to watch but as the movie progressed, I forgot about my discomfort and treated the characters as I would any other. The sad thing is that the people who really should see this movie will never see it because they can't get past their own desire to focus on the homosexuality rather than the genuine love.
Ultimately, what this movie tries to say is that the emotion of love is connected to itself in all of its forms and is never as simple as we want it to be.
What "people" are those?
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Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
Actually it's a chickflick.
I heard someone say it's the perfect chick movie: A love story starring hot guys.
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Originally Posted by Railroader
What "people" are those?
The people who don't want to see it because they don't believe in that homosexuals can actually experience love for each other. Those people will skip the movie because they believe in the homosexual agenda and that this movie is trying to "sell" homosexuality.
They'll miss a very good movie about love. Sucks to be them.
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I'm not much for tragic love stories, or love stories at all for that matter. However, when "Return to Brokeback Mountain" debuts starring Jessica Alba and Scarlet Johanson, I'm there.
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that would dispell any notion that americans are lesbophobic
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Originally Posted by UNTeMac
The people who don't want to see it because they don't believe in that homosexuals can actually experience love for each other. Those people will skip the movie because they believe in the homosexual agenda and that this movie is trying to "sell" homosexuality.
They'll miss a very good movie about love. Sucks to be them.
You're talking about people from every walk of life. Every persuasion of belief. Muslims, atheists, Catholics, Agnostics, Humanists, Christians, Buddhists...
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Originally Posted by Railroader
You're talking about people from every walk of life. Every persuasion of belief. Muslims, atheists, Catholics, Agnostics, Humanists, Christians, Buddhists...
Yes. I believe that if they think homosexuals cannot experience love, then they are wrong. It's what I think. I can't know it but who am I to really judge? As a heterosexual, I can't possibly understand what the real nature of the relationship is so why pass judgement on something I can't quantify?
This movie, while fictional, does represent an idea that all love is the same and connected to the simple deep need for human companionship that manifests itself in different ways in different people. To discount one kind of love or another simply because a book says so or because it makes you squirm in your seat at first is imho...silly.
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Blah blah blah. A run-of-the-mill tragic love story comes out featuring gay guys, and suddenly everyone is blabbing on about the philosophy of love as if it's some new thing.
If BrokeBack didn't feature homosexuals as it's main characters, but rather was about a hetero couple, nobody would be talking about it. And before you make the comment "it's about love not gays" read the sentence before this one.
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Originally Posted by greenamp
Blah blah blah. A run-of-the-mill tragic love story comes out featuring gay guys, and suddenly everyone is blabbing on about the philosophy of love as if it's some new thing.
If BrokeBack didn't feature homosexuals as it's main characters, but rather was about a hetero couple, nobody would be talking about it. And before you make the comment "it's about love not gays" read the sentence before this one.
My point exactly. It also helps it is a high-caliber chickflick.
cheers
W-Y
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“Building Better Worlds”
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Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
My point exactly. It also helps it is a high-caliber chickflick.
cheers
W-Y
Yeah I wonder how great everyone would think the movie was if the two fellas were played by ugly fat guys.
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I did not expect it to be as tragic as it was. Most tragedies build up through the story and wind up with a tragedic situation; Brokeback built one tragedy on top of another on top of another. Enis and Jack were just as trapped as Romeo and Juliet by their society and their times.
I saw it something like three or four weeks ago. It was very strong and very haunting, and I'm not really sure yet how I feel about it. I'm sad for many of the characters; Enis in particular because of all he gave up, his ex and daughters, and the girlfriend too. Enis just did not seem to be able to properly relate to a lot of people... I'm sad for Jack and his wife and family too.
I do believe that Enis' concept of what happened to Jack is very close to the truth-I've lived in Texas for quite a while, and in some parts, particularly in the panhandle (Childress, TX is near the corner Oklahoma makes with the root of the Texas panhandle), "'em queer folks is trouble." And in for trouble too.
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Originally Posted by greenamp
Yeah I wonder how great everyone would think the movie was if the two fellas were played by ugly fat guys.
Absoloutly! This film is a fairly well exacuted high profile Hollywood attempt at a formula picture made to sell.
It has:
Sex
horses
Homosex
Anne Hathaway
Two pretty boys who are confused
American WildWest/LittleHouseonthePrairie nostalgia
21st century political correctness
beautiful scenery
evil Christians
tragic end
love
It is a movie that can make almost any demographic group feel pretty happy about this movie. Except maybe evangelicals or fundamentalists who tend to get pre-emptively upset. It is a gimmick film and it isn't shy to hide it. It is IMO worth as much discussion as Timecop 2.
However, use it as a chance to take a girl out to the movies. It is that sort of film as well.
cheers
W-Y
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I don't think we've mentioned Anne Hathaway enough. Not only was she gorgeous (in a big-hair sort of way, of course) and not only did we find that she has significant "assets," but her acting was superb! I've known women like that here in Texas, and by golly, she got the character nailed.
Oh, and she's topless in one scene too. Weeee!
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greenamp and weyland just made my point. There are two people who can't look past their own desire to spin the movie and see it for what it is.
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it's sad to see so many people dismiss the movie just because it's got some homosexual characters. perhaps the fact that it is treating their love as something just as valid is any other love is exactly the point.
instead of portraying homosexual men as sex-obsessessed feminine queers we see average men who fall deeply in love with each other. no **** if it had a heterosexual couple leading the movie it probably wouldn't be as popular, but that's the point! it is remarkable because it so boldly displays the fullness that can exist in homosexual relationships just as much as a heterosexual one. what you see as boring, many people see as brave. maybe if, for all your life, people told you your love was less than theirs you would think differently.
btw, the actors aren't "hot."
Originally Posted by greenamp
suddenly everyone is blabbing on about the philosophy of love as if it's some new thing.
perhaps for many people, "blabbing on" about this facet of love is a very new thing.
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Originally Posted by forkies
it is remarkable because it so boldly displays the fullness that can exist in homosexual relationships just as much as a heterosexual one.
I would like to take this oppertunity to point out to you and everyone else who hasn't noticed. This is a movie and it is based on a novel. It is utter and complete fiction.
It has as much truthful value as Dungeons & Dragons 2: Wrath of the Dragon God.
cheers
W-Y
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i am fully aware of that fact & have read the novel. are you trying to say that we should ignore its message or anything one may take from it because of those facts?
maybe you prefer movies to be dumb entertainment. did this one make you think too much?
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Originally Posted by forkies
i am fully aware of that fact & have read the novel. are you trying to say that we should ignore its message or anything one may take from it because of those facts?
I'm saying that people shouldn't read too much into a movie. What is the real message if the movie in question? Is it love? Is it love that cannot be achieved? Is it love between persons of the same sex? Or is it not about love, but about society? Prejudice? Finding oneself? How about.. nature? Could this movie be about nature? Protection of nature, wild lands?
Or is it perhaps just a movie of queer cowherders and its purpose to sell tickets?
maybe you prefer movies to be dumb entertainment. did this one make you think too much?
I don't prefer it, but I expect it from Hollywood. They seem to be incapable of making half as good movies as talented people can. I wonder why.
cheers
W-Y
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Actually, it's based on a short story, not a novel. In fact, bookstores are selling JUST the short story published by itself for a cover price of $10! I usually get short stories in collections, and they cost around $6 or so for something like 4-10 short stories...
Anyway, fiction often is used to illustrate real life, as much as it's used to ask questions. Enos and Jake are just as real as Romeo and Juliet or Iago and Othello, and both were created for the same reason: to tell a story.
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Originally Posted by forkies
it's sad to see so many people dismiss the movie just because it's got some homosexual characters. perhaps the fact that it is treating their love as something just as valid is any other love is exactly the point.
instead of portraying homosexual men as sex-obsessessed feminine queers we see average men who fall deeply in love with each other. no **** if it had a heterosexual couple leading the movie it probably wouldn't be as popular, but that's the point! it is remarkable because it so boldly displays the fullness that can exist in homosexual relationships just as much as a heterosexual one. what you see as boring, many people see as brave. maybe if, for all your life, people told you your love was less than theirs you would think differently.
btw, the actors aren't "hot."
perhaps for many people, "blabbing on" about this facet of love is a very new thing.
Oh gimme a break. So what you're saying is, any old tired movie can be made in a new light if it features homosexuals? Maybe "The Island" would have taken on some new great meaning were it depicting two gay guys escaping the cloning compound! Heck, lets just round up all the stinkers of the past decade, and rewrite them to feature two homosexual men falling in love! Men In Black 2, Bad Boys 1&2, MInority Report! They'd be sure to win oscars then!
Please. There are plenty of stereotypes in Hollywood, that's what Hollywood is all about. Does anyone in the South talk like they do in Gone With the Wind or Steel Magnolias? Have they ever? (NO!) Do all black guys act like Will Smith or Martin Lawrence? Are all fat white guys comedians? Are all midgets evil sidekicks?
Brokeback is trendy right now amongst intellectuals b/c people who generally don't care for much outside their own little box can see the movie, muster up some empathy, philosophize about "gay love" at their local coffee shops, and go to bed feeling good about themselves as if they just helped save a dying whale while recycling a plastic bottle.
Brokeback Mt. is pandering to Gay Male stereotypes just as much as anything else. Tragic Love™ Against All Odds™ Social Predjedice™, etc, etc.
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Anyway it is not going to win for best picture because of the controversy. Hollywood likes to show it but not reward it. And the winner will be Munich.
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Originally Posted by greenamp
Oh gimme a break. So what you're saying is
no, i believe we were talking about one movie in particular, brokeback mountain. if you want to talk about how apparently easy it is to make tons of money by filling **** movies with homosexual themes while fooling millions of people, please make a new thread. i'm sure you could discuss the great long list of movies which do that.
Brokeback is trendy right now amongst intellectuals b/c people who generally don't care for much outside their own little box can see the movie, muster up some empathy, philosophize about "gay love" at their local coffee shops, and go to bed feeling good about themselves as if they just helped save a dying whale while recycling a plastic bottle.
although you are admittedly not an intellectual, tell me, what is "gay love" & why is it in quotes?
Brokeback Mt. is pandering to Gay Male stereotypes just as much as anything else. Tragic Love™ Against All Odds™ Social Predjedice™, etc, etc.
since when are these hallmarks of homosexuality, and in what way is the movie stereotypically homosexual other than showing that even gay people can love each other?
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Originally Posted by forkies
no, i believe we were talking about one movie in particular, brokeback mountain. if you want to talk about how apparently easy it is to make tons of money by filling **** movies with homosexual themes while fooling millions of people, please make a new thread. i'm sure you could discuss the great long list of movies which do that.
Wtf are you talking about? I was making a direct analogy of your comment: "instead of portraying homosexual men as sex-obsessessed feminine queers we see average men who fall deeply in love with each other. no **** if it had a heterosexual couple leading the movie it probably wouldn't be as popular, but that's the point! for the purpose of showing how ridiculous is sounded.
although you are admittedly not an intellectual, tell me, what is "gay love" & why is it in quotes?
Nice. So I provide an honest critique of a movie and b/c that movie just so happens to be about 2 gay guys falling in love you're first reaction is to call me stupid. I'm sure you were thumbing the word Homophobe!™ but maybe didn't have enough time to use it properly.
And gay-love was in quotes b/c I was using it satirically in the context of Hollywood cliche.
since when are these hallmarks of homosexuality, and in what way is the movie stereotypically homosexual other than showing that even gay people can love each other?
Again, wtf are you talking about? I used all those catch phrases with "™" as examples of Hollywood Stereotypes which are far from the "norm," b/c you seem to be trying to push the point that Brokeback Mountain is stereotype free. Yes stereotypes are bad, and Brokeback does not lack in them.
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first, i never called you stupid. you clearly separated yourself from "intellectuals" while also pigeonholing anyone who wants to discuss the movie. nor did i ever suggest you are homophobic, rather that you were criticizing this movie just because of the particular aspect of love it explores. however, looking over the thread again, i realize you did mention a movie about female homosexuality, so maybe it's only certain aspects of love you are opposed to & you are more homophobic than you make me make you out to be...
i think you are misinterpreting what i see as the point of this movie & the way in which it is being delivered. given what you quoted above you seem to be leaving out the core of my first post, "it is remarkable because it so boldly displays the fullness that can exist in homosexual relationships just as much as a heterosexual one." as ghporter stated above, "fiction often is used to illustrate real life, as much as it's used to ask questions." i don't care what form it's in, or the fact that it is one so common in movies. some people might see this movie & walk away from it trying to understand others' feelings. that fact, given the current social climate regarding homosexual relationships, should be of some value.
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Enough philosophising moralising. This thread needs some David
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Hmm. It's a good movie.
Lot's of issues being looked at in the film: poverty, broken families, marriage, sexuality, violence, independence, responsibility, fatherhood, secrets, alcoholism, etc.
So, it's not just a "gay" + "cowboy" movie.
And seeing as the director was gay, I'm assuming that my impression that the issue of violence and homophobia was probably spotlighted a little more than just passingly is probably correct.
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When you were young and your heart was an open book, you used to say "live and let live."
But if this ever changing world, in which we live in, makes you give in and cry, say "live and let die."
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Forkies wrote it's sad to see so many people dismiss the movie just because it's got some homosexual characters
Well its also sad that any discussion about the movie has been stopped and turned into a discussion about gay love and whether the movie would have been at all successful if it didn't feature two gay men (personally I think they're bi-sexual as they have sex with women and men). All good points but the topic of discussion is about the movie itself and not "what-if" scenarios.
As for meelk's post - if you don't like something then don't see it. The topic is not about views on life (and homosexuality) but on a movie. As you haven't seen it then you can't really discuss the movie now can you?
Two questions :
1. I heard the movie was shot on a really low budget. Something like $5M USD. Is this correct.
2. I also heard that most of the scenes were not shot in Wyoming. Is this correct and if so, where is all that beautiful country-side?
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I had a good friend in college who wouldn`t go see `The Vagina Monologues` because he, to quote, `Didn`t want to support that kind of thing.` Then again, he was also very anti-gay. Then again, hes 23 and has yet to kiss a girl.
Anyways, long story short, its a movie about love that reflects issues currently being brought up in society.
Forkies, I don`t think I ever saw you talk this much in college. Even the summer I lived in the same apartment area as you.
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Originally Posted by forkies
first, i never called you stupid. you clearly separated yourself from "intellectuals" while also pigeonholing anyone who wants to discuss the movie. nor did i ever suggest you are homophobic, rather that you were criticizing this movie just because of the particular aspect of love it explores. however, looking over the thread again, i realize you did mention a movie about female homosexuality, so maybe it's only certain aspects of love you are opposed to & you are more homophobic than you make me make you out to be...
It's called :
satire |ˈsaˌtīr| noun
the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.
DERIVATIVES satirist |ˈsatərist| noun
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It's the best damn Gay Cowboy movie I ever saw!
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Originally Posted by simonjames
2. I also heard that most of the scenes were not shot in Wyoming. Is this correct and if so, where is all that beautiful country-side?
The movie was shot in Alberta
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Originally Posted by dlefebvre
The movie was shot in Alberta
This is why I love Canada. The true home of gay cowboys these days.
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Originally Posted by JoshuaZ
This is why I love Canada. The true home of gay cowboys these days.
I didn't say it.
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Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Los Angeles
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What's the merit in saying "if there weren't gay protagonists, it wouldn't be successful?" Can't you go to any movie, good or bad, and say that it wouldn't be the movie it was without one of the primary narrative elements? It's disingenuous and logically specious to attack a movie from the standpoint that it would have failed without a lynchpin of its story.
Furthermore, undermining the movie's quality by focusing on the actors' looks demonstrates either severe tunnel vision or a highly debilitated memory. If you haven't noticed, 95% of major movie releases feature attractive leads regardless of the movie's subject matter.
As for Brokeback itself, I thought it was a delicate, subtle story that artfully conveyed the struggle brought on by homosexuality in the 1960's heartland. Without ever succumbing to cliche, it emphasized the humanity behind the homosexual image. I found its exploration of practical hardships, dual lifestyles, internal desires struggling with external perceptions, and forbidden love to be believable, graceful, and insightful.
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It's the devil's way now.
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Forum Regular
Join Date: Jan 2005
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I liked the movie, but the hype set my standards too high. It was a good movie, but it was way over-hyped.
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Mac Elite
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Denton, TX
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Originally Posted by PookJP
As for Brokeback itself, I thought it was a delicate, subtle story that artfully conveyed the struggle brought on by homosexuality in the 1960's heartland. Without ever succumbing to cliche, it emphasized the humanity behind the homosexual image. I found its exploration of practical hardships, dual lifestyles, internal desires struggling with external perceptions, and forbidden love to be believable, graceful, and insightful.
Wow. Nice.
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"This show is filmed before a live studio audience as soon as someone removes that dead guy!" - Stephen Colbert
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Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Los Angeles
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Cheers.
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It's the devil's way now.
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Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Frickersville
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ugh, PookJP, thank you. you artfully said what i wanted to but couldn't articulate. bah, maybe i've been in japan too long; as my japanese skill increases my english goes down the shitter.
btw, i like your sig, but this isn't happening
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Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Yamanashi, Japan
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Originally Posted by dlefebvre
I didn't say it.
Joke. Canada joke. I love Canada. Really.
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