[fisherKing]

okay, i've been bitching since tuesday about the new imac's glossy screen...figured it was time to take an actual look.

just got back from apple soho, here's my report:

machine is beautiful, slim, modern. did i mention slim?
not crazy about the logo (it is VERY pronounced), and miss the sleep light.
after 2 minutes, was perfectly comfortable typing on the new keyboard.

but the screen...

i made a black box in photoshop, and...was looking at a $1300 mirror. i do a lot of graphics with black backgrounds (and have black backgrounds as my desktop pic).

i pulled a salesperson over, asked (the useless question; how could he know?) if apple planned a matte version of the new imac.

then HE launched into a rant:

he said the store employees have been discussing this all week, that 50% of store visitors DID NOT like the glossy screen; okay, half did, but that's a significant number.

then he told me that HE wanted a new mac, but, as a photographer, was really unhappy with the glossy screen.

the last thing is interesting: the gloss comes from the glass overlay, so...i wonder if any adventurous third parties will offer a replacement..??

anyway, i really want a new mac, but am disappointed in this. it's not a small thing: we use our computers as a VISUAL AID, controlling events with a keyboard & mouse; the screen is EVERYTHING.

and for me, with my current screens facing 2 huge southern-exposure windows...the new imac will not work.

END RANT...!

[ghporter]

I find it interesting that the "photography and graphics crowd" that ranted and complained about MacBook Pros said that the glossy screen was the only way to go. I like the screen-I do not have any glare problems where I have the thing (the room light's at about a 120º angle from the screen), and I can fiddle with the display settings if I want the brightness and contrast different from the default.

I think a lot of people are confusing the glossy screen on the iMac with the glossy screen on MacBooks and MBPs. On the laptops there's a coating that makes the LCD either matte or glossy, and these coatings seem to have the ability to alter how images look (though I don't see this happening on my matte MBP).

[fisherKing]

isn't it the other way around? from my own web research (especially forums), seems most graphics & photo pros are NOT fans of the glossy screen.

either way, i hope apple offers a matte-screen option, just as they eventually offered glossy screens on the mbps...

[amazing]

I'm not a fan of the glossy screens, whether laptops or desktops. Just a whole bunch of eye fatigue, IMO. But don't bother waiting for any implementation of matte screens on Apple's part: They've targetted the MB and the iMac, don't think they'll reverse their marketing decision anytime soon.

Thing is, it seemed to be the gaming and entertainment crowd that went for the glossy laptops, for watching DVDs and other entertainment media. Gaming fell short on the MB because of the poor integrated graphics, and now the poor graphics card in the iMac isn't gonna satisfy the gaming crowd, either.

The iMac will do well in dorm rooms for watching movies. However, that crowd really wants gaming as well, so will they put up with the poor graphics solution or will they go elsewhere?

edit: just saw the benchmarks at macworld.com and the gaming doesn't look too bad. So, forget that comment. Back to complaining about the screen.

Macworld: First Look: From the Lab: iMac benchmarks

[MichiganRich]

People with hi-end rear-projection HDTV's pay tuners to calibrate them and to remove the shiny glare screens. The newest generation of plasma HDTV's are touting their anti-glare coating. Premium projection screens are matte finished. Reflections aren't good!

Why on earth would I want my computer, which I view up close, to be reflective and shiny? Because some designer thought shiny black looks cool everywhere?

[fisherKing]

i know for me, am not arguing which is 'better', matte or glossy.
just think this part of the computer experience is so (obviously) the center of that experience, that we should have a choice of screens...

meanwhile, will wait a month or so, see what happens. after that??? not sure...

oh well.

[hldan]

I asked this on a different posting. What's everyone complaining so much about? Apple is virtually the last company to offer glossy screens on their computers. Glossies have been around on Windows notebooks for years and there's been no choice for a matte option. You buy Sony, HP and Dell and you get glossy. These companies all have AIO's with glossy screens and It's nothing new but when Apple does it you all act like it's the first time you've seen it. Has Apple committed a crime? The iMac will sell regardless.
Apple is going mainstream like the rest.

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by hldan 

I asked this on a different posting. What's everyone complaining so much about? Apple is virtually the last company to offer glossy screens on their computers. Glossies have been around on Windows notebooks for years and there's been no choice for a matte option. You buy Sony, HP and Dell and you get glossy. These companies all have AIO's with glossy screens and It's nothing new but when Apple does it you all act like it's the first time you've seen it. Has Apple committed a crime? The iMac will sell regardless.
Apple is going mainstream like the rest.

it IS new on the imac. it's NOT a dell, sony, hp. and apple has always created it's own space, not 'gone mainstream'.
it's not a crime to make a glossy-screen imac, nor is it a crime to talk about wanting a matte screen option; they offer this on the macbook pro!

[hldan]

Originally Posted by fisherKing 

it IS new on the imac. it's NOT a dell, sony, hp. and apple has always created it's own space, not 'gone mainstream'.
it's not a crime to make a glossy-screen imac, nor is it a crime to talk about wanting a matte screen option; they offer this on the macbook pro!

Yes and this is typical of people like you who get spoiled when Apple is a bit different from the others. The MBP's are "Pro" machines and the iMac and MacBooks are not and most consumers have used glossy screens and the PC manufactures haven't stopped forcing it down the consumers throat so it's obviously not going away and yes you are going to have to realize that Apple HAS gone mainstream. That should have been obvious the moment they sorta had to sell out and allow for Windows to be installed on the Mac and they support the utility to do it.
It's no longer about "Think Different".

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by hldan 

Yes and this is typical of people like you who get spoiled when Apple is a bit different from the others. The MBP's are "Pro" machines and the iMac and MacBooks are not and most consumers have used glossy screens and the PC manufactures haven't stopped forcing it down the consumers throat so it's obviously not going away and yes you are going to have to realize that Apple HAS gone mainstream. That should have been obvious the moment they sorta had to sell out and allow for Windows to be installed on the Mac and they support the utility to do it.
It's no longer about "Think Different".

yikes. you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
i know A LOT of people using imacs professionally (i do mac support in nyc), and, as the apple store employee said, half the people who've checked out the machines don't like the glossy screen.

anyway. i stand by my words, and hope apple will give us an option. if not...so it goes, will deal with it.

[Tigerlittle]

Carlibration tests by a user on dpreview.com confirm my fear that the new iMac is not suitable for photo-editing due to poor colour accuracy:

First iMac calibration impressions...: Mac Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

After extensive research, I have decided to skip the 2007 iMac and bought the 2006 iMac instead. Hope that Apple will make a better screen on the 2008 iMac that is suitable for photo-editing.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by fisherKing 

most graphics & photo pros are NOT fans of the glossy screen.

Almost all. (I have never heard of, or read a post of a serious photographer or graphics person who liked them)

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by hldan 

What's everyone complaining so much about?
Apple is going mainstream like the rest.

You said it yourself.

[Veltliner]

I also made the trip today to see the new iMacs.

I would say the term "glossy screen" is a misnomer. It seems to be not the screen itself, that is glossy.

It looks like a sheet of plexiglass is covering a classic matte screen, making the surface glossy (maybe there is a kind of bonding involved, but I doubt it).

I did a few image adjustments with Aperture to get the feel.

What really annoys me is not only the gloss (which distracts the eye, and changes the exact perception of color and contrast), but also that the viewer is separated from the actual image by this plexiglass. It is like looking at the image through a window, or through a filter. The image is sunk down there, under the plexiglass surface.

This would make the "glossiness" a part of the design, and Apple would have to change it for the classic matte screen.

[hldan]

I understand some of the posters concerns in regards to the glossy on the new iMac. I went to the Apple store and played with it and while the picture was really clear the glossy did have glare. At this point it's either take it or leave it. I decided to buy it.
My question to everyone is what are all the Windows notebook users doing then? They are forced to use glossy screens. There are plenty of graphics pros and photographers that use those glossy Windows notebooks, they have to be getting along since there's no alternative in Windows.
CRT's were used by graphics pros and photographers and they were glossy. My point is working with glossy displays is nothing new.

Tigerlittle mentioned that he wants Apple to make an iMac display suitable for photo-editing? What about a display suitable for gaming and movie watching? Matte screens don't always suit that purpose. When a company goes mainstream they go with the majority.

[Tigerlittle]

I agree that glossy screen may be great for watching movies or playing games.

Given the popularity of digital cameras, Apple should have offered a matte screen version as an alternative for consumers who dislike glossy screen. It is about choice, not one-or-the-other.

[iDaver]

Anti-glare coating for monitors was invented for a reason. Glare and reflection is bad when looking at a computer monitor! I've been shaking my head ever since Apple first went in this direction with the MacBook. It is stupid, stupid, stupid.

I bought a MacBook anyway. There was no anti-glare option. I now have to be sure I'm sitting where there is no light or window behind me when I use it. I also need to wear a dark colored shirt. A light shirt makes an annoying reflection. All together now: stupid, stupid, stupid.

[Veltliner]

At least you don't need an extra mirror if you want to comb your hair.

I just never thought it necessary to put a Core 2 Duo chip into a mirror.

[L'enfanTerrible]

I have not seen the new iMacs, so I'm not going to talk about whether it's better or not.

But in the whole argument between matte and glossy for the graphic artists out there, didn't you guys prefer glossy CRT displays to LCDs because of their color accuracy?

As for the iMacs, I'm on the fence. I was in the crowd that wanted to see an extra hard drive bay and a PCIe expansion slot. A more modular Mac.

[mavherzog]

Originally Posted by Veltliner

It looks like a sheet of plexiglass is covering a classic matte screen, making the surface glossy (maybe there is a kind of bonding involved, but I doubt it).

It's glass. And it is held there by magnets. It can easily be removed with a strong suction cup.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by mavherzog 

It's glass. And it is held there by magnets. It can easily be removed with a strong suction cup.

Interesting. Details? Do you have a tech manual on the new machines? Considering that this is the first Mac desktop I've ever had this much contact with, I'm very curious about it.

[JKT]

The usual thing - Kodawarisan got one and took it apart straight away.

[ghporter]

Too bad I don't speak Japanese-I'd like to read the text that goes with the pictures. Very interesting design there. Thanks!

[nat]

I bought a Gateway laptop a few years back on sale and it is matte. I don't follow Windows laptops but at least a few years back they weren't all glossy.

[darkmatter]

Originally Posted by fisherKing 

machine is beautiful, slim, modern. did i mention slim?

The only idea i can express is that the only chance left to get a performance and flexible Apple's computer lays on making to the idea to have a nearly 20 kg bulky computer at one's desk

Options @ Apple are becoming tighter
Best Regards

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Interesting. Details? Do you have a tech manual on the new machines? Considering that this is the first Mac desktop I've ever had this much contact with, I'm very curious about it.

Not a technical or service manual but I have found the Developer note here…

iMac Developer Note

they used to have the same as pdf to download but I haven't found it right now…

[mdc]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Too bad I don't speak Japanese-I'd like to read the text that goes with the pictures. Very interesting design there. Thanks!

The Mac maniac Mac up-to-date information and the disassembly rose which KODAWARISAN delivers it does,: The glass panel is removed from iMac

[Mediaman_12]

Originally Posted by mavherzog 

It's glass. And it is held there by magnets. It can easily be removed with a strong suction cup.

Magnets, So that's where you can place the little remote, the older iMacs having a magnet on the right hand side.
The good news is that with it being held on by magnets then it would be possible for some enterprising co' to make a replacement screen with a anti reflection mat finish.

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by Mediaman_12 

Magnets, So that's where you can place the little remote, the older iMacs having a magnet on the right hand side.
The good news is that with it being held on by magnets then it would be possible for some enterprising co' to make a replacement screen with a anti reflection mat finish.

now if only APPLE would do this!

i am going to wait; i dont want to spend $1500 on something i have a serious issue with.
and i hope a 3rd party DOES offer a matte glass option...would be well worth it for some of us!

[ioaz]

I have to say, after reading this I decided to take a trip to the apple store myself. I couldn't believe that these glossy screens could really be as bad as some people were making them out to be. After all, why would Apple do this if they were that bad.

Unfortunately after arriving at the store I was proven incredible wrong.

The glare on these things is worse than my old CRT from 2001!

I was so happy when I got my first LCD because it was so much easier to see in any kind of lighting. I just don't understand why apple would do this.

They say this is good for media?! I loaded an HD trailer of the new fantastic 4 movie and any part that was black reflected me perfectly, it was a distracting disaster. (Check it out, go to an apple store and look at a fullscreen trailer.)

I have to say, I was really excited to get a new iMac, but now I'm thinking I'll buy a used previous generation 24".

Maybe after using the screen for a while a person gets pretty used to it, but I don't know if I can go back to a display that causes that much glare. I'm a pretty picky guy.

[ghporter]

ioaz, did you see any difference if you changed the tilt of the computer? Did you turn it and see any change? While looking at the 20" aluminum iMac at my local Apple Store, I looked at a lot of pictures, both moving (a couple of trailers) and static, and there was no glare at all, simply because the display was angled so it didn't reflect.

At home with my aluminum iMac, I have ZERO reflections while it's on. Even with black backgrounds. It's because I turn or tilt it if I see even a hint of a reflection, and just a tiny bit is all it takes to eliminate any glare or reflection.

[ioaz]

Really? I didn't physically move the computer at all, but I looked at it from as many angles as I could and moved closer and farther away, etc. Maybe the apple store I went to has their imacs placed poorly, but I could immediately see myself in the black border (or any place that was black on the screen) in every one of them I looked at . I guess, at that point I was looking for it, but that doesn't change the fact that it happens; didn't happen in the previous generation or in the cinema displays that were at the store.

I might have to run back and move the computers around a bit and see what happens, but still, where my computer is placed now, it would be a nightmare. As I type this, there is a little sun shining on my lcd. I fear the new iMac would be completely useless in a situation like this.

I mean don't get me wrong, the screen is still good in ideal situations, but I feel it is definitely a step in the wrong direction.

Maybe if I use a vesa mount on an arm I could move it around enough so there wouldn't be any problems. Oh well, I guess I can just get one and if it bothers me too much I can get rid of it.

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by ioaz 

Really? I didn't physically move the computer at all, but I looked at it from as many angles as I could and moved closer and farther away, etc. Maybe the apple store I went to has their imacs placed poorly, but I could immediately see myself in the black border (or any place that was black on the screen) in every one of them I looked at . I guess, at that point I was looking for it, but that doesn't change the fact that it happens; didn't happen in the previous generation or in the cinema displays that were at the store.

I might have to run back and move the computers around a bit and see what happens, but still, where my computer is placed now, it would be a nightmare. As I type this, there is a little sun shining on my lcd. I fear the new iMac would be completely useless in a situation like this.

I mean don't get me wrong, the screen is still good in ideal situations, but I feel it is definitely a step in the wrong direction.

Maybe if I use a vesa mount on an arm I could move it around enough so there wouldn't be any problems. Oh well, I guess I can just get one and if it bothers me too much I can get rid of it.

i have the same sort of issue with my workspace...sunlight.

i REALLY am going to wait a bit, see if apple (or another co) offers a matte option.
or... i may do a new macbook pro (& use that with my LG monitor as a second screen).

all things considered, the imac IS a beautiful, well-spec'd machine, and i LOVE the idea of the small wireless keyboard, but, like a girlfriend, it HAS to look good to me if i am gonna look at it all day..!

[Veltliner]

The new iMacs had a very strong negative response.

That may spur apple to give us options:

1. Matte screen

2. No ugly, black border, just plain aluminum or black.

[Eriamjh]

Can't one put a thin matte applique on the screen to make it matte? Sure, it will reduce the brightness, but aftermarket anti-glare screens have existed for hundreds of years (in computer years).

[amazing]

Just saw the new iMacs at one of the nearby Apple Stores.

Incredibly reflective and distracting when trying to read a full page Word doc (I just opened one of the interminable legal docs that come with it.) If you get one portion of the doc to have no glare, you're reading along and 2 paragraphs down, bad glare again. On the 20", you also have the narrow viewing angle, so type at the bottom of the page is not as distinct as type at the top. Yes, you can change the angle--but who wants to be constantly jiggling the screen forward and backward, or side to side? On top of that, the 24" screen was 'shivering' and bouncing whenever someone leaned on the waist high counter.

Quicktime movies, stuff like that, look great: the eye takes in a more general viewing area, so glare--while still there--is less of a central concern. It's docs and type that would lead to incredible eye fatigue...imo.

[Eug]

Well, to be fair, the glare would be especially bad in the store.

I find the glare on my MacBook annoying under certain lighting (and I generally much prefer matte screens to glossy), but it's not as bad in my house as it is at the Apple Store. (I keep my lighting at home much dimmer and usually more diffuse.) It can be bad in my office though.

YMMV in your home.

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Well, to be fair, the glare would be especially bad in the store.

I find the glare on my MacBook annoying under certain lighting (and I generally much prefer matte screens to glossy), but it's not as bad in my house as it is at the Apple Store. (I keep my lighting at home much dimmer and usually more diffuse.) It can be bad in my office though.

YMMV in your home.

and therein lies the problem; do we have to modify our homes or offices to accomodate a new computer?
a choice of screens would make more sense (but i guess apple disagrees).

my home office is set up in the most logical way for me; and a glossy screen will not do in this setup.

oh well, so it goes...

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

ioaz, did you see any difference if you changed the tilt of the computer? Did you turn it and see any change? While looking at the 20" aluminum iMac at my local Apple Store, I looked at a lot of pictures, both moving (a couple of trailers) and static, and there was no glare at all, simply because the display was angled so it didn't reflect.

At home with my aluminum iMac, I have ZERO reflections while it's on. Even with black backgrounds. It's because I turn or tilt it if I see even a hint of a reflection, and just a tiny bit is all it takes to eliminate any glare or reflection.

I inspected it in several stores, sitting in front of them at normal height and if there is glare anywhere within line of sight behind you it is unavoidable. I tried tilting it as far forward as possible and caught reflections of the keyboard and desk in the glass.

Adjusting the contrast and brightness is self defeating. It distorts the colors on the screen to the point of uselessness and can not eliminate the dark areas which are the worst hit. It is not the image on screen that is the problem it is the highly reflective surface that sits in front of it.

Since the dark areas of any image are always the hardest to edit they are really hard to deal with. By turning it square on to yourself to eliminate as much of the background as possible you reveal your own reflection.

Tilting it up, down or slightly to one side just shows the reflection in that particular direction, which may be more or less than any other direction, but still there. Imagine having to edit material perpetually at an angle anyway?

Obviously there are some amongst you who are not designers and are mystified by the angst felt by we who are designers, but even you need to make out what is on screen to read or differentiate the text, menus, images or options presented to you.

Old CRTs were not totally glossy like these, they all had some anti-glare coating on them. Some PC screens to the point they were diffuse.

Books are printed on matte paper specifically for this reason. You will notice those printed on cheap glossy paper, they too are shiny and hard to read. The best photography or art books are printed on expensive low sheen or matte coated stock for this very reason.

Replacing the glass is not going to solve the problem. If the anti-glare coating is at the back of the glass in contact with the actual screen the front of the glass will still be glossy and reflective. If the front of the glass is slightly frosted it is separated by the glass fom the actual screen and will blur the image. Neither will resolve the issue. The problem is the glass.

Apple may have to, in addition to the enclosed cleaning cloth, offer a black burqa for the user to wear whilst using the new iMacs.

[experimental]

Originally Posted by Veltliner 

The new iMacs had a very strong negative response.

That may spur apple to give us options:

1. Matte screen

2. No ugly, black border, just plain aluminum or black.

I couldn't agree more .........

[0157988944]

What the hell WAS their motivation to give the iMac a black eye? Now it just looks like your screen should extend further than it does. Looks like a CRT. There is no design functionality to it, and would be TONS less distracting to just have an old iMac with the white changed to aluminum. I don't need a black back...

[ioaz]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

Apple may have to, in addition to the enclosed cleaning cloth, offer a black burqa for the user to wear whilst using the new iMacs.

lol, thanks, I got a good chuckle out of that. Too bad it's true.

If it doesn't look too ugly I might just get one and pop out the glass and hope a company will come out with a replacement border in black, or better yet, aluminum. Then everyone wins.

I mean, it doesn't look horrible, and if someone just made a replacement plastic or aluminum border it would be great.

Check it out.
iMac glass removal -Oops, I feel like an ass, I knew I had seen this somewhere before, but didn't realize it was in the same thread

[iDaver]

From what I'm hearing, it sounds like Apple would have to redesign the whole front of the new iMac to solve this problem; that simply using a different kind of glass isn't the answer. What possible motivation could there have been for this user-unfriendly design? Sounds like they're stuck with this poor decision for the foreseeable future.

Arstechnica.com has done a review of the new iMac 20". In it the reviewer says he "got used to" the reflection but he then says that someone who dislikes glossy displays should pass on the iMac. What is Apple thinking? Do they really think a slight increase in perceived contrast is worth this aggravation?

[amazing]

When I was in the Apple Store today, I compared the glossy iMac to the glossy MB. The MB LCD is much less objectionable than the iMac undoubtedly due to the glass itself. The glossy MB is still objectionable, to me, knowing where I would use the MB, but the glare really is not as bad. A "lesser bad", perhaps? A better coating on the MB?

On the 20", the lower quality screen makes it even worse. If you're reading documents full-screen side by side, the lower quality viewing angle makes the type start fading out and blurring towards the sides. The glare adds to the bleariness.

I already have to fight this on the lower quality LCD of my 12" PB: I have to tilt the screen forward to see clearly what's at the top, and tilt it back to see what's at the bottom. Mostly I make do with working in the middle area. It's especially noticeable to me because I came from the good screen on the Titanium. You get used to it, but that doesn't make it right.

And this is on a 12" LCD. On a 20", well, there goes the neighborhood...

[Mediaman_12]

I wonder what the motivation behind Apples use of these lower quality screens really is? My old iMac (20" Intel Core duo) had a fantastically good screen Very good colours wide viewing angle etc., So good I decided to remove the TV from my room and use the iMac instead.
Is it a heat or power issue, the new iMac being thinner than the old one. Is it cost, perhaps some other part has increased in cost, so to keep the overall price the same they have chose a cheaper panel? Or maybe the casing (AU & Glass) is now more expensive to produce?
There has to really be a good reason, Apple Screens have always been distinctly better than the rest. why the switch now?

[altimac]

I encourage people to feedback Apple using this address: http://www.apple.com/feedback/imac.html

Given that 50% of Apple Store visitors dislike the new iMac screen, we can hope that Apple listen to our feedback!

[rubaiyat]

Feedback, feedback, feedback or Apple will ignore you and keep heading down this path.

Make sure they understand that this was a lost sale.

[Andhee]

In the apple store now, found out the remote thing does actually magnetize to the imac, only it is on the front instead of the side. Typing this on the new keyboard, tis rather good, although I have just found out that the backspace button is rather sensitive, but it might just be me.

No wireless keyboards in stock, so haven't been able to have a go on them, but I've adapted fairly well to this new keyboard anyway.

Glossy screen isn't much of a problem, you only really notice the reflection if you focus on it. Screen itself is vibrant and i'm pleased with it.

Speakers are good quality ().

Being told to get off now by apple geek, toodles

[Malus72]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

Feedback, feedback, feedback or Apple will ignore you and keep heading down this path.

Make sure they understand that this was a lost sale.

And make sure they know they have gained one here - and few others I know of also - the glossy screen makes games and movies and colors overall look better to us "common folk" who aren't doing major photoshop calibrations -

Makes a sweet living room computer and been waiting for the glossy screen options on larger LCD's and glad to see they are becoming more common -

Like it or not they aren't stupid , they have seen from marketing what us poor "untrained eye" folks prefer and the glossy screen just looks better for a non artistic expert - (and there are more of us than you think)

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by Malus72 

And make sure they know they have gained one here - and few others I know of also - the glossy screen makes games and movies and colors overall look better to us "common folk" who aren't doing major photoshop calibrations -

Makes a sweet living room computer and been waiting for the glossy screen options on larger LCD's and glad to see they are becoming more common -

Like it or not they aren't stupid , they have seen from marketing what us poor "untrained eye" folks prefer and the glossy screen just looks better for a non artistic expert - (and there are more of us than you think)

i think the real issue isn't that one type of screen is BETTER than another; simply that, as with the macbook pro, there should be a choice.

if you like the glossy, well...more power to you.
i need a matte screen.
apple would do well to acknowledge ALL of it's potential market.