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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Desktops > Apple just announced new Mac Pros.....with new Graphics cards!!!

Apple just announced new Mac Pros.....with new Graphics cards!!! (Page 3)
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MacosNerd
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Jan 8, 2008, 10:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Everyone's optimum CPU/RAM ratio is different, but I think the Mac Pro is starved on RAM compared to CPU for most users who need a Mac Pro. For my usage at work, 4x2.8Ghz and 32GB RAM would be a good balance.
Crippled and starved is two different things. A 2 gig Macpro still works. A crippled computer fails to do those tasks.

Just a little over the top with the hyperbole I suspect.
     
eggman
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Jan 8, 2008, 10:12 PM
 
OWC is now featuring memory upgrades for the new MacPros.

http://Memory Upgrades for Mac Pro 8...d January/2008
( Last edited by eggman; Jan 8, 2008 at 11:46 PM. )
     
Lateralus
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Jan 8, 2008, 10:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Triath.lon View Post
They don't know if they want to support it? HD DVD is still out there...
Apple has been an official supporter of Blu-ray for quite some time. There has never been any question as to which side of the fence they're on.

Originally Posted by Aegis View Post
Perhaps I'm misinformed but from what I've read, the 38xx series isn't really an improvement over an 8800GT. ([H] Enthusiast - ATI Radeon HD 3800 Series)
I was more referring to the fact that Apple opted for the HD 2600 and not a 3800 series card.
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Don Pickett
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Jan 8, 2008, 10:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Apple has targeted the box quite high by using 8x2.8Ghz as the base configuration. In a well rounded box with that much CPU power, I'd expect at least 8GB. With 2GB I'd expect something more like 4x2.0Ghz (not far from their laptops at 2x2.4Ghz with 2GB). Everyone's optimum CPU/RAM ratio is different, but I think the Mac Pro is starved on RAM compared to CPU for most users who need a Mac Pro. For my usage at work, 4x2.8Ghz and 32GB RAM would be a good balance.
And I expect my new Mac to come with a Unicorn and a magic wand. What you expect means nothing, other than your expectations have nothing to do with reality. I went to Dell and mucked around and found that if you go to Dell's business section you can get a machine with a whole whopping 3 GB of RAM. However, most of the systems I looked at shipped with less, either 512 MB or 1 GB. The fact that Apple is delivering a system with a decent amount of RAM is a freakin' miracle.

What I'd like is for people to stop complaining about new Mac Pros for stupid, made-up reasons, but then I think I might have a better shot at getting a unicorn.
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MacosNerd
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Jan 8, 2008, 10:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
What I'd like is for people to stop complaining about new Mac Pros for stupid, made-up reasons, but then I think I might have a better shot at getting a unicorn.
That's not going to happen. Just look at the grumbling going on now.

Overall this is a great computer and a nice incremental upgrade to the existing line.
     
SierraDragon
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Jan 8, 2008, 10:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Everyone's optimum CPU/RAM ratio is different, but I think the Mac Pro is starved on RAM compared to CPU for most users who need a Mac Pro.
I concur and personally I will add RAM, but not from Apple, so IMO 1-2 GB stock RAM is fine.

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Don Pickett
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Jan 8, 2008, 10:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacosNerd View Post
That's not going to happen. Just look at the grumbling going on now.

Overall this is a great computer and a nice incremental upgrade to the existing line.
Actually, the amount of complaining lately is making it hard for me to read these forums.
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Lateralus
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Jan 8, 2008, 10:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacosNerd View Post
Overall this is a great computer and a nice incremental upgrade to the existing line.
That's the problem. You can't release an 'incremental' update when you haven't updated the machine since its introduction 17 months prior.
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Jan 8, 2008, 11:06 PM
 
Got mine (stock config) at the Christiana mall in Delaware today around 2pm, totally smokes my old G4 466.
     
glideslope
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Jan 8, 2008, 11:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
What I'd like is for people to stop complaining about new Mac Pros for stupid, made-up reasons, but then I think I might have a better shot at getting a unicorn.
Relax. There will always be those who are never satisfied. The new MP's are worth the wait, and priced competitively. As for BlueRay let's wait till the 15th. I'll wager Apple TV with a BlueRay drive. A MP with BlueRay would be an issue for Apple TV, IMO.
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Don Pickett
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Jan 8, 2008, 11:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by glideslope View Post
Relax. There will always be those who are never satisfied. The new MP's are worth the wait, and priced competitively. As for BlueRay let's wait till the 15th. I'll wager Apple TV with a BlueRay drive. A MP with BlueRay would be an issue for Apple TV, IMO.
I am relaxed. I'm just stating an opinion: the amount of whining has gone up exponentially in the last year or so.
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Jan 8, 2008, 11:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
That's the problem. You can't release an 'incremental' update when you haven't updated the machine since its introduction 17 months prior.
This is not an incremental update. You won't see anything else for 12m at least. This is plenty for the Pro User. Apple is focused on Consumer Appliances for the remainder of 08. Let's not loose sight of the big picture. It's all about spreading OSX. The devices are the keys to the rooms.
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glideslope
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Jan 8, 2008, 11:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
I am relaxed. I'm just stating an opinion: the amount of whining has gone up exponentially in the last year or so.
Sorry Don did not mean it like that. I understand your point.
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Lateralus
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Jan 8, 2008, 11:21 PM
 
How is this not an incremental update? New CPUs and graphics cards? It's an incremental update.
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misterdna
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Jan 8, 2008, 11:48 PM
 
     
musicforme
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Jan 9, 2008, 02:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² View Post
for the people who already ordered. would you be pissed if apple decides to tell that they will start a blu-ray or hddvd drive option at macworld?
I wouldn't be pissed at all. Using the ADC store, I still spent over $2700 for a custom config'd Pro.

I imagine if/when the BR option is added, its going to be somewhere around the $400 range. I simply can't afford that now but know that I could add it at a later date.
     
eggman
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Jan 9, 2008, 03:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
How is this not an incremental update? New CPUs and graphics cards? It's an incremental update.
I suppose anything not involving an entirely new architecture could be considered incremental.

But here's the thing - pretty much the entire line has gone from using dual-core to using quad-core chips.

The entire line is using 45nm processors instead of 65nm chips.

The systems are using DDR2-800 instead of DDR2-667 memory.

The bus has gone from 1333Mhz to 1600Mhz.

The minimal RAM configuration has gone from 1 to 2GB.
The minimal HD configuration has gone from 250 to 320GB.

And a base 3.0GHz 8-core system has gone from being $3,997 to being $3,597 - even though it has more RAM, a larger HD and faster memory and bus speeds.
Oh, and a faster graphics card.

All of that may be considered incremental. But increments add up.
     
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Jan 9, 2008, 04:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
Well I just checked and there's still only one 16X lane so no SLI configs. When is Apple going to stop pairing the latest CPUs with six month old hardware. Never.
That's baloney. Although there is no SLI on the Mac there are most definitely two 16x lane PCIe 2.0 slots on the new MP.


Bottom to top:
• 16x lane PCIe 2.0 double-wide slot (extra width for GPU cooling)
• 16x lane PCIe 2.0 slot
• 4x lane PCIe 1.0 slot
• 4x lane PCIe 1.0 slot
All slots provide mechanical support for 16-lane cards. 300W combined maximum for all PCI Express slots.

Apple has made this quite clear on their specs page.

On the new MP you now have a total of 40 lanes to use for cards. The old MP offered a total of only 26 lanes to the user (16+8+1+1).
( Last edited by Simon; Jan 9, 2008 at 04:43 AM. )
     
PaperNotes
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Jan 9, 2008, 05:54 AM
 
Your link says:

Three open full-length PCI Express expansion slots:
One PCI Express 2.0 x16 slot
Two PCI Express x4 slots
"All slots provide mechanical support for 16-lane cards".
Note, mechanical support means physical support, not that the card will run at x16 in a x4 slot.

And read the MP's graphics page. It says there is one x16 lane available " A 16-lane dedicated graphics slot now features PCI Express 2.0".

They're also charging double the price for the 8800GT
     
PaperNotes
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Jan 9, 2008, 05:58 AM
 
So we've got idiots underspeccing the Mac Pros, idiots charging double for the Geforce 8800GT, but who is the idiot not doing his job right on the Mac Pro's webpage:

     
flabasha
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Jan 9, 2008, 06:29 AM
 
I'm confused. Isn't any update, by definition, incremental?

These machines look phenomenal. Me buy now.
     
PaperNotes
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Jan 9, 2008, 08:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by flabasha View Post
I'm confused. Isn't any update, by definition, incremental?
If incremental means one update a year and using six month old overpriced graphics cards and and a motherboard that is very limited then yes.
     
Richard Richard
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Jan 9, 2008, 08:17 AM
 
well , i'm VERY happy

mainly as i bought mine in july 07 , and this 'update' is hardly what i'd call earth shattering to say the least..
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Simon
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Jan 9, 2008, 08:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
Your link says:
..
Three open full-length PCI Express expansion slots:
...
Note, mechanical support means physical support, not that the card will run at x16 in a x4 slot.

And read the MP's graphics page. It says there is one x16 lane available " A 16-lane dedicated graphics slot now features PCI Express 2.0".
You're mixing it all up because you're on a rant. How about you calm down and read carefully?

The key word in Apple's specs is OPEN. There is one open slot plus one slot for the GPU. Both are 16x lane PCIe 2.0 slots. So you have two 16x slots in every new MP.

Jeez, take a look at the pic I posted. There are four slots there after all.
     
PaperNotes
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Jan 9, 2008, 08:25 AM
 
Ah, I see what they're doing with that "Open" bull**** but it still stinks that there is no SLI and the 8800GT costs so much from Apple.

Guess the best choice would be not to upgrade the GPU in the first x16 lane and stick a Windows only graphics card in the second x16 lane from another supplier. Anything else would mean paying Apple that stupid price for the 8800GT/HD 2xxx.
( Last edited by ghporter; Jan 9, 2008 at 08:33 AM. Reason: Edited for PG13)
     
Simon
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Jan 9, 2008, 08:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
Ah, I see what they're doing with that "Open" bull****.
It's not bull****. It's called reading the proper specs carefully. Spamming a thread with misinformation just because you feel like venting on a public board is bull****.
( Last edited by Simon; Jan 9, 2008 at 08:46 AM. )
     
PaperNotes
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Jan 9, 2008, 08:29 AM
 
Hardly misinformation when it is one error out of four points raised and just because Apple can't write their specs the standard way. The Mac Pro is still has a low end motherboard with eight CPU cores any way one looks at it.
     
MacosNerd
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Jan 9, 2008, 08:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
That's the problem. You can't release an 'incremental' update when you haven't updated the machine since its introduction 17 months prior.
I'm not defending apple here but when had they last released a large update to their line. (except for the platform shift from ppc to intel). They generally don't that.
     
ghporter
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Jan 9, 2008, 08:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
Hardly misinformation when it is one error out of four points raised and just because Apple can't write their specs the standard way. The Mac Pro is still has a low end motherboard with eight CPU cores any way one looks at it.
It's hardly appropriate to go nuclear about this in this thread, either. Ok, so you're not happy that the newest and shiniest from Apple doesn't fit the pattern you wanted to see. Sorry. But click it down a few notches, ok? This is about a computer, not your chosen religion or something. Seriously, lower the level of venom and bile in your posts.

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Jan 9, 2008, 08:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
This is about a computer, not your chosen religion
For many people the mac is their chosen religion.
     
MacosNerd
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Jan 9, 2008, 08:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
Ah, I see what they're doing with that "Open" bull**** but it still stinks that there is no SLI and the 8800GT costs so much from Apple.

Guess the best choice would be not to upgrade the GPU in the first x16 lane and stick a Windows only graphics card in the second x16 lane from another supplier. Anything else would mean paying Apple that stupid price for the 8800GT/HD 2xxx.
Go buy a dell then. Personally I'm pretty happy with the new MacPro but alas, I cannot afford a new one. My credit card and my wife will divorce me.
     
Reggie Fowler
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Jan 9, 2008, 09:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by glideslope View Post
Relax. There will always be those who are never satisfied. The new MP's are worth the wait, and priced competitively. As for BlueRay let's wait till the 15th. I'll wager Apple TV with a BlueRay drive. A MP with BlueRay would be an issue for Apple TV, IMO.
Hmmm. Is that what Apple's doing? Release Apple TV with built in Blu-Ray. Edit high definition movies on your computer and then sync to your TV??? Hey, that would be great, but that also means that you have to have enough hard drive space to keep all your movies on your computer at all times. Still, I would need a burnable blu-ray option for long term storage of edited movies and hey, i would like to burn these movies for friends so a Blu-Ray burner is a must. On a side note, right now nobody owns a blu-ray player (maybe .0001%) of the people out there. If apple should offer blu-ray in Apple TV (and you figure people are only going to puchase 1 of these players), then I believe AppleTV would sell like hotcakes to Apple users. I'm going to purchase a blu-ray within the next 2 years. I would do so early (as in now) if Apple offered it. Otherwise i'm going to wait and purchase someone else's. So why not AppleTV if it has it built it??

Now the real question i have is: If Apple releases a blu-ray burner option in the next incremental update for the MacPro......can it just be plopped into the current MacPro's, or will the next incremental update be a different machine? For example, I would purchase a MacPro now if i knew 100% that it can be swapped into my machine. But i don't want to take that chance. Steve should address this issue at MacWorld!!!! If he wants to see more computers sold, i believe that more people would buy now if they were assured that the blu-ray option will fit into their machine when the time comes. In addition, i'm sure some of the old MacPro users would like it also, so he needs to address whether or not it will fit into their machines and be compatible too?
( Last edited by Reggie Fowler; Jan 9, 2008 at 10:10 AM. )
     
mduell
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Jan 9, 2008, 09:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
I went to Dell and mucked around and found that if you go to Dell's business section you can get a machine with a whole whopping 3 GB of RAM. However, most of the systems I looked at shipped with less, either 512 MB or 1 GB. The fact that Apple is delivering a system with a decent amount of RAM is a freakin' miracle.
The base Dell Precision T5400 is 4x2.3 and 1GB RAM... certainly a lower end machine than the Mac Pro, but a marginally better balance IMO.

Originally Posted by glideslope View Post
This is not an incremental update. You won't see anything else for 12m at least. This is plenty for the Pro User. Apple is focused on Consumer Appliances for the remainder of 08. Let's not loose sight of the big picture. It's all about spreading OSX. The devices are the keys to the rooms.
Nehalem is due out in the 4th quarter... but who knows how long it will take Apple to actually ship it.

Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
They're also charging double the price for the 8800GT
Not even close to double: they're charging $350 vs about $275 for a PC one off the shelf. I'm actually pretty happy with their prices this time: $25 premium for the 2600XT, $75 premium for the 8800GT. The problem is in 3-6 months when the PC cards fall in price and the Mac Pro cards stay the same.
     
awcopus
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Jan 9, 2008, 10:31 AM
 
I'm probably buying one of these bad boys soon.

I'm a little sticker-shocked, but I'll get over it once tax time comes (deduction... cha ching!).

BluRay options will arrive throughout 2008, at increasingly appealing price points, so any buyers of this machine will probably end up spending less for the same functionality than they would have if Apple had made it a bto option ("add 3-5 months for delivery"). It won't be covered by Apple Care. C'est la vie.

Apple can't be blamed for this new paradigm ("in 2010, Intel announces the Centurion chip line, 100 cores each running at 100 MHz"). Somebody said this before, that he/she would prefer more GHz and fewer cores, and I'm inclined to agree. Someday, when molecular/nanotech breakthroughs unleash processing power as undreamed of today as what we use today was undreamed of in 1980, we'll all have a good laugh about "the time when" computer companies released updates like the ones we're growing accustomed to.

From my perspective, it's miraculous that Apple continues to produce Mac Pros. Here's what I'm almost pushing the button on:

*******************************************
Summary
Subtotal $3,998.00
Estimated Ship:
3-5 weeks
Specifications
* Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon (8-core)
* 4GB (4 x 1GB) -------->I like having a useful amount of RAM pre-installed and backed up by Apple
* 750GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
* NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512MB (Two dual-link DVI)
* One 16x SuperDrive
* Apple Mighty Mouse
* Apple Keyboard (English) + Mac OS X
* AppleCare Protection Plan for Mac Pro (w/or w/o Display) - Auto-enroll
*******************************************

I "chatted" with Apple about the gpu and was reassured (110% certainty) that the 8800 will be made available as a separately purchasable kit (for more than $200, no price determined yet). I could have the machine in a week without that one upgrade. The time value of having the machine weeks in advance is definitely worth it to me, but after my most recent multi-thousand dollar repairs (all covered by AppleCare), I'm gun shy on configuring a machine that would have one MAJOR part not covered by Apple.
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Jan 9, 2008, 10:39 AM
 
The nVidia 8800 GT is available from the U.S. Apple Store, but it's a $349 kit...still getting one though
     
PaperNotes
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Jan 9, 2008, 11:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Not even close to double: they're charging $350 vs about $275 for a PC one off the shelf.
I can get one for $210! And I can bet it will be closer to $150 by March.

The problem is in 3-6 months when the PC cards fall in price and the Mac Pro cards stay the same.
Bingo.
     
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Jan 9, 2008, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
I can get one for $210! And I can bet it will be closer to $150 by March.
but we're not talking about the future, we're talking now and right now its not double.
     
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Jan 9, 2008, 11:55 AM
 
Some folks apparently have already ordered their new MPs, IMO nuts a week before Expo. IMO it is appropriate to wait to see what happens at Mac Expo SF next week prior to finalizing configurations. A plethora of new hardware/software of all types from scores of vendors is introduced at Mac Expo. The Mac landscape always goes through a major evolution whether or not any one specific product is updated.

As to the "incremental upgrade" debate, IMO that is silly semantics. For those of us who matter (meaning those who are actually going to buy and configure a max MP) the potential overall performance throughput increase is enormous, much more than 50%. Somehow dissing the way overdue new MPs as just a small upgrade is like I said, silly.

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Jan 9, 2008, 12:07 PM
 
I find I'm talking myself into one

though I cannot justify spending that much money, regardless of that. I would hold off, especially if you're looking to include a new display. While I don't expect to see any new announcements for the MacPro who knows what else will be unveiled next week.
     
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Jan 9, 2008, 12:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
If incremental means one update a year and using six month old overpriced graphics cards and and a motherboard that is very limited then yes.
How is the motherboard limited? The motherboard supports two 1600Mhz FSBs, has enough room for 32GB of RAM, has two 16x PCIe slots (someone is going to have 16x SLI in windows going in no time), has the newest Intel Xeon chipset and the newest Xeon chips. As for graphics cards, what do you want.

You can put an 8800 GT in there which is the latest best card. Let's take a look at Tom's Hardware Guide for January 2008, The Best Gaming Graphics: January 2008 | Tom's Hardware , an 8800GT is pretty much it unless you want a GTS. And overpriced, well, Apple is always overpriced, haven't we said that of it's last graphics card?
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Jan 9, 2008, 12:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by SierraDragon View Post
Some folks apparently have already ordered their new MPs, IMO nuts a week before Expo. IMO it is appropriate to wait to see what happens at Mac Expo SF next week prior to finalizing configurations. A plethora of new hardware/software of all types from scores of vendors is introduced at Mac Expo. The Mac landscape always goes through a major evolution whether or not any one specific product is updated.
It doesn't really matter, no one is going to receive a new Mac Pro until after Macworld anyways. Aren't these things taking over a week to ship and over 3 weeks to ship with the 8800 GT?
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Jan 9, 2008, 12:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by awcopus View Post
I'm a little sticker-shocked, but I'll get over it once tax time comes (deduction... cha ching!).
Where the f*ck is my W2?! I need a new computer!
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Jan 9, 2008, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by cgc View Post
The nVidia 8800 GT is available from the U.S. Apple Store, but it's a $349 kit...still getting one though
5-7 week wait.

Specs just state its for "Mac Pro" without mention of revision 1 or 2. It also says "features a PCI Express 2.0 interface for a high-bandwidth connection to the Mac Pro..." which makes me a little nervous - is this ONLY a PCIe 2.0 card; is there a power connector for the previous Mac Pro model?

So does anyone have any clarification on whether or not this card will work in the first version of the Mac Pro?
     
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Jan 9, 2008, 02:29 PM
 
I reckon we're going to have to wait until someone with a rev 1 MP gets his 8800GT upgrade kit to find out. *sigh* The Mac Pro waiting blues just started all over again
Mac Pro Quad 2.66Ghz with 5Gb memory, 2.2Tb internal HDD, 750Gb external HDD and 30" Apple Cinema Display
     
glideslope
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Jan 9, 2008, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
How is this not an incremental update? New CPUs and graphics cards? It's an incremental update.
As in, something else on the horizon? This is it for 2008 as far as the MP. No June surprise, IMO.
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achaete-scute
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Jan 9, 2008, 04:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Reggie Fowler View Post
What am i suppose to do with my high definition movies on my computer. Where can i burn them to? What do i play them on. What's the point of all these companies selling HIGH DEFINITION cameras if we can't edit them and watch them later on a dvd?
Well, right now, there's two cheap options:
1. Have a computer hooked up to the TV or projector. I'm using a Mac Mini to do that.
2. DVD Studio Pro allows you to burn HD-DVD-formatted content onto regular DVD-R (and +R and double layer). These discs play at true high definition in any Toshiba HD DVD player. I'm doing this all the time. Beautiful quality. You get up to 30 min. onto a regular DVD using no additional compression (raw mpeg2) and up to 1 hour using one of the standard mpeg4 compression settings in Compressor3.
I know, this is using HD DVD, and not Blu-ray. (one of the many reasons I chose HD DVD at the time. Now it looks like I'm going to be in the betamax camp...).
     
zaghahzag
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Jan 9, 2008, 05:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
How is this not an incremental update? New CPUs and graphics cards? It's an incremental update.
yeah it's absolutely an incremental update. The high end machine is barely faster than the old one, with a better base video card.

The middle machines are a definite step up for pro users.
     
Xyrrus
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Jan 9, 2008, 05:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macadvo View Post
I reckon we're going to have to wait until someone with a rev 1 MP gets his 8800GT upgrade kit to find out. *sigh* The Mac Pro waiting blues just started all over again
I just ordered one ($314 edu, then I had an iPhone rebate) for my 1st gen MP. I figure if it doesn't work I can just return it. The only reason I can see it not working is if the card doesn't have the 6pin power connection that it requires on a non PCIe 2.0 bus. Apple generally isn't in the habit of deliberately removing pieces of hardware from their stuff just for the heck of it - my 7300GT has an SLI connector despite the MP not supporting SLI.

With an estimated arrival date into March I figure I have a long time to think about it and cancel the order if somebody provides compelling evidence why it won't work.
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Macadvo  (op)
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Jan 9, 2008, 05:32 PM
 
Yeah I'm thinking about just taking the plunge and ordering one as well. Too compelling an upgrade to miss really.
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aehaas
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Jan 9, 2008, 06:40 PM
 
Since Webster has not defined what constitutes the various types of upgrades you are all right in your descriptions! I actually would say that the new machines are a downgrade as you probably cannot run 10.4 in them. Clearly there are many here who should not buy the new machines, too much distress.

On the other hand I ordered my downgrade and should be getting it by mid February.

aehaas
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