Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Assisted physician suicide

Assisted physician suicide
Thread Tools
Monique
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: back home
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 10, 2011, 01:50 PM
 
I am watching you do not know Jack about Dr. Kevorkian. He is a hero to me because he is actually a human being. Contrary to doctors that force individuals to live so they can feel powerful and happy to see people suffer.

If a person wants to die this is their business and if they do have difficulties doing they should be able to get help.

It works very well in Europe; they have limits and respect them very well.

So the people who are against this are not human and enjoy people to suffer.

In Canada, people cannot get pain killers.

I have 2 experiences with death in my family, my grandmother who died suffering terribly of ovarian cancer and my brother who was ignored by nursing staff and suffer also terribly. I am not saying that they would have chosen assisted suicide but I would, knowing that I have cancer I would buy a plane ticket to Europe and have it done there. You cannot stop death coming from cancer; you can only delay it for a few years at a huge cost of your health leaving you sometimes paralysed, sterilized, death, etc.

The ex-sister in law of my sister has lymphmophic cancer and the treatments were so devastating that now she has a permanent facial paralysis.

I wish doctors in Canada and the U. S. would be more human and accept death has a part of life.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 10, 2011, 02:23 PM
 
Your view of cancer is a little pessimistic, as is your view of doctors. In most cases they are simply not allowed to help someone die even if they want to. You wouldn't want someone to get locked up for 30 years for helping you out would you? I also think that cancer can be cured. Certainly not always, but under many circumstances you can have moony more years after successful treatments and who knows when a full-blown cure will turn up. Its always worth suffering a bit, just not indefinitely IMO.

That said, I'm with you all the way. I wouldn't want to get old, useless and incontinent in a home somewhere. I hope I have the foresight to go top myself before I ever get that bad.
There was a very young rugby player from the UK who opted for assisted suicide. He was badly paralysed in an accident and so he went from being very big and very very strong to being completely immobile. A lot of people took great objection to that but I understood why he did it.
Its just a question of making sure that any laws allowing it cannot be abused by relatives or others who stan to inherit anything.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 10, 2011, 03:54 PM
 
Might want to pay closer attention to the title. I have no strong opinion on assisting doctors who wish to commit suicide. You'd think they would know how to do it without help.
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 10, 2011, 08:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Might want to pay closer attention to the title. I have no strong opinion on assisting doctors who wish to commit suicide. You'd think they would know how to do it without help.
Considering some of the doctors (as opposed to "physicians") that I've known, you might be surprised...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
OldManMac
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: I don't know anymore!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 10, 2011, 08:50 PM
 
Physician assisted suicide should be legal. It is not the state's business, or call to make, when someone who is terminally ill wants to end their suffering.
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 10, 2011, 09:00 PM
 
Hero to some, villain to others.
Jack Kevorkian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Criticism and Kevorkian's Response
According to a report by the Detroit Free Press, 60% of the patients who committed suicide with Kevorkian's help were not terminally ill, and at least 13 had not complained of pain. The report further asserted that Kevorkian's counseling was too brief (with at least 19 patients dying less than 24 hours after first meeting Kevorkian) and lacked a psychiatric exam in at least 19 cases, 5 of which involved people with histories of depression, though Kevorkian was sometimes alerted that the patient was unhappy for reasons other than their medical condition. (In 1992, Kevorkian himself wrote that it is always necessary to consult a psychiatrist when performing assisted suicides because a person's "mental state is . . . of paramount importance." [19]) The report also stated that Kevorkian failed to refer at least 17 patients to a pain specialist after they complained of chronic pain, and sometimes failed to obtain a complete medical record for his patients, with at least three autopsies of suicides Kevorkian had assisted with showing the person who committed suicide to have no physical sign of disease. Rebecca Badger, a patient of Kevorkian's and a mentally troubled drug abuser, had been mistakenly diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. The report also stated that Janet Adkins, Kevorkian's first patient, had been chosen without Kevorkian ever speaking to her, only with her husband, and that when Kevorkian first met Adkins two days before her assisted suicide he "made no real effort to discover whether Ms. Adkins wished to end her life," as the Michigan Court of Appeals put it in a 1995 ruling upholding an order against Kevorkian's activity.[19] Furthermore, according to the The Economist: "Studies of those who sought out Dr. Kevorkian, however, suggest that though many had a worsening illness ... it was not usually terminal. Autopsies showed five people had no disease at all. ... Little over a third were in pain. Some presumably suffered from no more than hypochondria or depression."[20]
In response, Kevorkian's attorney Geoffrey Fieger published an essay stating, "I've never met any doctor who lived by such exacting guidelines as Kevorkian ... he published them in an article for the American Journal of Forensic Psychiatry in 1992. Last year he got a committee of doctors, the Physicians of Mercy, to lay down new guidelines, which he scrupulously follows."[19] Fieger stated that Kevorkian found it difficult to follow his "exacting guidelines" due to "persecution and prosecution", adding "[H]e's proposed these guidelines saying this is what ought to be done. These are not to be done in times of war, and we're at war."[19]
In a 2010 interview with Sanjay Gupta, Kevorkian stated an objection to the status of assisted suicide in Oregon, Washington, and Montana. Only in those three states is assisted suicide legal in the United States, and then only for terminally ill patients. To Gupta, Kevorkian stated, "What difference does it make if someone is terminal? We are all terminal."[21] In his view, a patient did not have to be terminally ill to be assisted in committing suicide, but did need to be suffering. However, he also said in that same interview that he declined four out of every five assisted suicide requests, on the grounds that the patient needed more treatment or medical records had to be checked.[22]
[edit]
     
Monique  (op)
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: back home
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 10, 2011, 09:01 PM
 
This is what I meant that it should be legal and stop religious people govern our countries.
     
Monique  (op)
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: back home
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 10, 2011, 09:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Hero to some, villain to others.
Jack Kevorkian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is not up to doctors to decide in place of a person. If a person wants to die it is their business, not mine not yours not anybody. People who advertise wanting to die do not want to. Pain management does not work, pain specialist are a joke and when you are in pain 24/7 you want to end this no matter what. In a civilized kind society physician assisted suicide is legal and execise with discernment. All a psychiatrist would do is give a magic sunny pill to the person, not help the problem. Why is it so hard to respect a person's choice to die with dignity not tie to a bed, not able to speak, with a tube down their throats, not in unbarable pain, unable to speak or think, abandon by many, looking like a corspe because you could not swallow anymore, etc.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 10, 2011, 09:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
Physician assisted suicide should be legal. It is not the state's business, or call to make, when someone who is terminally ill wants to end their suffering.


Furthermore, any adult who wants to commit suicide should be allowed, even if they aren't terminal.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
OldManMac
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: I don't know anymore!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 10, 2011, 09:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post


Furthermore, any adult who wants to commit suicide should be allowed, even if they aren't terminal.
Exactly! The only reason it isn't allowed is because the state wants to extract one more penny in taxes or some other form of revenue from us before we "naturally" expire.
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
Athens
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 11, 2011, 02:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Monique View Post

In Canada, people cannot get pain killers.

Um yes people can get pain killers here.....

Passive euthanasia is legal here, not active euthanasia but the debate about active euthanasia is going on again and much of the public is supportive of it. With in the next decade I can see active euthanasia being legal. If the NDP ever gets majority government it is a sure thing.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 11, 2011, 07:11 AM
 
I think we need to clarify something before going forward. There is a major difference between medically assisted suicide for medical reasons and simply committing suicide.

The majority of suicides suffer from something they feel they cannot escape, and they conclude that dying will allow them the one exit from what they see as the source of their suffering. And when they succeed, it turns out (in all but a very tiny fraction of cases) that by "escaping," they victimize other people, such as family and friends. One way they do this is by not sharing with anyone else their problems, then not sharing their intentions. To many around these people, the suicide is "out of the blue" and thus even more hurtful.

Contrast that with people who suffer from long term, chronic medical issues that reduce the quality of their lives immensely. Their suffering is apparent to all around them, the cause is clear, as is the efforts these victims have gone to to find relief. The terminal aspect is far less relevant to their suffering than the lack of quality of life.

These two situations are very different. If an adult wants to end his life for some reason other than the huge burden of a chronic and enormously disabling condition, it usually turns out to look like a cowardly act. This sort of suicide is something I strongly oppose, and with decent access to the right resources (counseling, psychiatric help, etc,), most people who feel they should end their lives can be helped out of their situation. Chronic, disabling disease that is not "terminal" may not be "life threatening," but it certainly does make living less worth while to the victim. That sort of suffering is just as real as chronic pain. Is it more humane to say "sorry, but you can survive this illness for years, though you'll be reduced to wearing a diaper, being fed through a surgically implanted tube, and be completely immobile, requiring extremely expensive medical and nursing care that your insurance won't even pay a penny for?"

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 11, 2011, 01:54 PM
 
If government can ban suicide, then they are staking an ownership claim. They own your life before you do.

Suicide should be legal for adults. Kids are sort-of owned by their parents until they come of age. And doctor assisted suicide should be legal when a medical condition is the cause. Dr.-assisted suicide can't be legal (for the doctor) in non-medical situations because it would violate the Hippocratic Oath.
     
Athens
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 11, 2011, 05:12 PM
 
There was a news story for some guy who held a party before committing suicide to celebrate his life and to say his final good byes to family and friends. I can't remember if it was a Canadian or a American. I keep thinking it was in Quebec but I can't find the story. Anyways it was a wonderful event. His family and friends while not all supportive of the way he was dealing with his terminal illness, supported him and thought it was a very beautiful end. Some of the people interviewed a week after he had committed suicide where all in good shape, not the typical trauma related to the death of a friend or a loved one.

Me personally if my death was 100% in 6 months and I was already in a lot of pain and slowly getting worse. I would much prefer to hold a party, meet with all my friends and family at the same time. Hear with my own ears what they have say about me while im alive what would normally be said in a funeral and say my good byes to each person. I rather they remember me for who I am vs some one grasping for the last breath before death in a hospital. I rather go out on my own time if the choice was a option.

As long as there is hope for recovery it should not be a option.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
Monique  (op)
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: back home
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 11, 2011, 06:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post

Me personally if my death was 100% in 6 months and I was already in a lot of pain and slowly getting worse. I would much prefer to hold a party, meet with all my friends and family at the same time. As long as there is hope for recovery it should not be a option.
Are you 100%sure you can survive a cancer like pancreatic, lung, brain, etc.

They are killers and you better have your party right after you get the news; my brother died 5 months after he was diagnosed. Was told he was terminal 2 days before Christmas. As long as doctors take their times to diagnosed serious cancers like lung cancer people will continue to die.

This is why it is so important to be able to get help if you want to end your life, stop being judged, and have the same opportunities than in Europe.

How can you be in a lot of pain since you can get easily pain killers.

Doctors are so afraid of narcotics that they do not care if their patients are in pain, that one oxycotin would help tremendesly is some cases. My point is since doctors are afraid of narcotics they under prescribed and a person can be in pain 24/7 and death becomes the only solution.
     
Monique  (op)
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: back home
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 11, 2011, 06:58 PM
 
To add to my previous reply; since I am talking about physician assisted suicide; it is so important to have the opportunity to get help when you need to commit suicide. It should be like in Europe.

As for the legality of it. It will depends on each province because health care in governed by province not on the federal level. The population would have to be behind it and have the politicians listening to people not to their own prejudices.
     
hyteckit
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 11, 2011, 07:00 PM
 
I only support assisted suicide if the person is terminally ill.

Not just because the person is depress or has a mental condition, and wants to commit suicide.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Athens
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 11, 2011, 07:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Monique View Post
Are you 100%sure you can survive a cancer like pancreatic, lung, brain, etc.

They are killers and you better have your party right after you get the news; my brother died 5 months after he was diagnosed. Was told he was terminal 2 days before Christmas. As long as doctors take their times to diagnosed serious cancers like lung cancer people will continue to die.

This is why it is so important to be able to get help if you want to end your life, stop being judged, and have the same opportunities than in Europe.

How can you be in a lot of pain since you can get easily pain killers.

Doctors are so afraid of narcotics that they do not care if their patients are in pain, that one oxycotin would help tremendesly is some cases. My point is since doctors are afraid of narcotics they under prescribed and a person can be in pain 24/7 and death becomes the only solution.
Blah blah blah yes we know Quebec is living in the stone ages. Can we move on please. Anglaise world has no problems with getting access to pain killers. Anglaise world has no problem getting diagnostics and medical care. Francophone doctors don't like given out pain killers well then the Francophone's should fix the problem with replacement doctors. Oh wait, language laws. Every one non Francophone is a animal... Guess that explains the doctor shortage. Or your leaving something out. Perhaps your past includes being a drug addict which would make it hard for any doctor to prescribe you opioid based pain killers?

Originally Posted by Monique View Post
To add to my previous reply; since I am talking about physician assisted suicide; it is so important to have the opportunity to get help when you need to commit suicide. It should be like in Europe.

As for the legality of it. It will depends on each province because health care in governed by province not on the federal level. The population would have to be behind it and have the politicians listening to people not to their own prejudices.
Active assisted suicide in Canada + That backwater place called Quebec is governed by Federal laws because it is a criminal code matter. Washington State and Oregon already allow doctor assisted suicide.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
Athens
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Great White North
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 12, 2011, 12:31 PM
 
Monique, found the reason you don't get pain killers

A University of Northern B.C. professor who is studying the impact of the clinician-patient relationship on how health professionals rate pain suggests it decreases if the clinician doesn't like the patient.
Pain underestimated by doctors for some patients - British Columbia - CBC News
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
SpaceMonkey
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Washington, DC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 12, 2011, 12:39 PM
 
I'm all in favor of alternatives to people jumping in front of the subway trains during rush hour when I'm trying to get to work.

"One ticket to Washington, please. I have a date with destiny."
     
   
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:56 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,