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Ive Gone
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subego
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Jun 27, 2019, 08:05 PM
 
     
And.reg
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Jun 27, 2019, 08:17 PM
 
IveGone to LoveFrom...?

Uh...... more ownership and money for him, but less pressure from Apple's ongoing post-Jobs internal incongruence.
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 27, 2019, 09:16 PM
 
I thought he was on his way out for quite a while. At first he wouldn't appear in the “white room” videos in person, but still do the voice over. Then he wouldn't do the voice over anymore. And it seems his interest has shifted from computers to watches to architecture. Most of the recent products sacrifice too much functionality for looks, too, so I am excited that someone new can take over.
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Doc HM
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Jun 28, 2019, 05:28 AM
 
I think Apples been design driven by its engineering for quite a while now. Yes all the current machines look great but its pretty standard engineering driven designs carried out very very well (for a given engineering priority - weight and thinness). Ive's greatest input was to merge design with function more creatively as in the original iMac and move the product forward. The iMac was an object of design as much as computer. It just happened to be be great at both. Along the way he made as many missteps as steps (puck mouse) and I don't really consider the watch a thing of any great beauty, although it makes a passable smart watch.
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turtle777
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Jun 28, 2019, 09:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Most of the recent products sacrifice too much functionality for looks, too, so I am excited that someone new can take over.


The obsession with creating thinner and thinner products led to a lot of suboptimal decisions.
Time to create more practical hardware.

-t
     
mindwaves
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Jun 29, 2019, 12:06 AM
 
The new Mac Pro is one of the best looking machines of all time, much better than the original cheese grater. Love the iMacs (except Flower Power and that other ugly one) and some of the MBs. Love iPods and iPhone 4 and XS models.

The iMac is in a dire need of a redesign. It has had the same basic design since maybe 2004. Not sure how to improve it beyond making the borders smaller, but I'm not a designer.

Hope Apple can stop making such flat keyboards now and make the new MB have a real design. 4 iterations and they all still stink.
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OreoCookie
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Jun 30, 2019, 05:34 AM
 
@mindwaves
Regarding the new Mac Pro, I really love the overall shape and the concept, but I can‘t get to love the holes, they are, hmmm, weird. Your list contains some of the best. Some of the best designs for me are:
- The B&W G3: pull on the latch and the whole machine is yours.
- The original iMac in most colors (agree with you on flower power and Dalmatian)
- The dual USB iBook: the breathing sleep light indicator is inspired.
- The iPhone 4S: my favorite iPhone design ever. In second place: the iPhone X in white.
- The iPod 2nd gen. I had a 20 GB one, and loved that thing to bits.
- AirPods. Mine have dying batteries, so they need replacing.
- The PowerMac G5 Dual 2.0: what a great machine that remained usable until the Intel transition.
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Thorzdad
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Jun 30, 2019, 08:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
...- The PowerMac G5 Dual 2.0: what a great machine that remained usable until the Intel transition.
Fantastic machine. Still have mine, though it now has some issues that make it hard to boot. And, so easy to get inside and do stuff.

Just looking at pics of the new MacPro, I can't say I'm a huge fan of the design. It just looks off. Like the scale is wrong. It's sort of like it's a miniature made for a film. It just doesn't look right. Sort of the way miniature boats look wrong when there's a shot of them on the "ocean", or a miniature "building" is on fire. I think it's the handles of the MacPro that do it. They look too huge for the apparent size of the box.

For me, the Apple Watch is a semi-low point in Apple/Ive design. It's huge and not at all an elegant design. Yes, it's all smooth rounded edges and all, but, visually, It harks back to the early era of digital watches, when every geek had these enormous clunky boxes strapped to their wrists. It certainly does more than those early digitals, though.
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Jun 30, 2019, 06:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
The iMac is in a dire need of a redesign. It has had the same basic design since maybe 2004. Not sure how to improve it beyond making the borders smaller, but I'm not a designer.

Hope Apple can stop making such flat keyboards now and make the new MB have a real design. 4 iterations and they all still stink.
2004 was the white, flat iMac. 2007 was the first aluminum model, and the current (with the tapered edge) is from 2012. I agree that this version needs to die pronto, because I hate it. The 2009 model was better in every way.

I still like the MBP keyboard, but that’s because mine works great.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I thought he was on his way out for quite a while. At first he wouldn't appear in the “white room” videos in person, but still do the voice over. Then he wouldn't do the voice over anymore. And it seems his interest has shifted from computers to watches to architecture. Most of the recent products sacrifice too much functionality for looks, too, so I am excited that someone new can take over.
He clearly wants to design things that are not computers, and he doesn’t like the attention he gets as a celebrity. I also think that putting UI design under Ive was a major mistake. Not surprised in the least that he’s leaving.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
dav
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Jul 1, 2019, 01:58 PM
 
i lusted over (and got) the PowerMac G4 Cube and the iPod (original). The PowerMac G5 tower and iMac G4 were great too.
one post closer to five stars
     
OreoCookie
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Jul 1, 2019, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
2004 was the white, flat iMac. 2007 was the first aluminum model, and the current (with the tapered edge) is from 2012. I agree that this version needs to die pronto, because I hate it. The 2009 model was better in every way.
I love the current generation of iMacs, but there is one significant drawback: ports are inaccessible. If you want to plug in a USB cable (e. g. to charge your phone or keyboards), you invariably have to swivel the whole thing. And even then, you can barely see the ports (as you likely won't be able to swivel the iMac by more than 10-20 degrees).
Originally Posted by P View Post
I still like the MBP keyboard, but that’s because mine works great.
Yup. Even the new desktop keyboard, which some people seem to love, feels quite cheap by comparison. It rattles when pressing keys more vigorously, and the give is quite uneven. n:
Originally Posted by P View Post
He clearly wants to design things that are not computers, and he doesn’t like the attention he gets as a celebrity. I also think that putting UI design under Ive was a major mistake. Not surprised in the least that he’s leaving.
When Ive started, computers were not designed well while nowadays they have been reduced so much that there isn't much to design. The iPad is — as it should be — dominated by a screen, and has fewer and fewer buttons. So there isn't much to be creative about anymore. Plus, working at the top-level of Apple for several decades surely sucks you dry.

As Gruber put it so amazingly, I'm not concerned about Ive leaving, I'm concerned about Ive not being replaced.
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mindwaves
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Jul 3, 2019, 10:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I love the current generation of iMacs, but there is one significant drawback: ports are inaccessible. If you want to plug in a USB cable (e. g. to charge your phone or keyboards), you invariably have to swivel the whole thing. And even then, you can barely see the ports (as you likely won't be able to swivel the iMac by more than 10-20 degrees).
I agree with some port placements on some of the machines. There is no reason why the iMacs should not have a port in the front or on the side. Guess Ives doesn't want to see a port in the front.

For the MB and MBP, the ports are too close to each other. If you use one dongle (as many people do), then it kind of blocks the other port.

Apple Mouse charges upside down is the dumbest design decision ever. A close 2nd is the iPhone battery hump. 1st generation squarely placed the hump in the middle, which is like a tumor. 2nd generation places it better near the bottom.

On another note, the 16'' MBP will be a pro machine, like the new Mac Pro, which means crazy high prices.
{{{ mindwaves }}}
     
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Jul 3, 2019, 10:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
Apple Mouse charges upside down is the dumbest design decision ever.
They had to make it unusable while charging, otherwise it just becomes a corded mouse.
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 3, 2019, 11:36 AM
 
I really miss the original wireless design. The only bad thing about it is that thin metal plate coming unglued.
     
Thorzdad
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Jul 3, 2019, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
Apple Mouse charges upside down is the dumbest design decision ever.
Not even close. The Apple Pencil charging by hanging it off the port of your iPad is beyond dumb. That's just breathtakingly bad design. First-ballot Hall of Fame bad.
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Jul 3, 2019, 10:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
They had to make it unusable while charging, otherwise it just becomes a corded mouse.
Wasn't a problem for the keyboard. It really is the single worst piece of Apple design in decades.
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Waragainstsleep
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Jul 3, 2019, 10:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
I agree that this version needs to die pronto, because I hate it. The 2009 model was better in every way.
Except weight.

The two worst things about the current iMacs is the glass glued to the LCD and the fact they still use the shittiest HDDs in all of recorded history.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
turtle777
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Jul 3, 2019, 11:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
The two worst things about the current iMacs [...] and the fact they still use the shittiest HDDs in all of recorded history.
I don't think it counts, because you have a choice to buy iMacs with SSDs.

Shitty = no choice

-t
     
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Jul 4, 2019, 03:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
I agree with some port placements on some of the machines. There is no reason why the iMacs should not have a port in the front or on the side. Guess Ives doesn't want to see a port in the front.
The original iMac G5 had them lined up along the back edge, but on the side and still easily accessible. That they're not there any more is only because of thinness.

For the MB and MBP, the ports are too close to each other. If you use one dongle (as many people do), then it kind of blocks the other port.
Well, the MB only has one port, so it isn't too close to anything. I actually disagree that the MBP has the ports too close. I have nothing that blocks the second port, and the fact that they're reasonably close together means that you can connect both ports to one dongle, which happens.

On another note, the 16'' MBP will be a pro machine, like the new Mac Pro, which means crazy high prices.
Do you know that, or are you guessing? Because I would like that, but I don't think it will happen.

Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Not even close. The Apple Pencil charging by hanging it off the port of your iPad is beyond dumb. That's just breathtakingly bad design. First-ballot Hall of Fame bad.
That one doesn't matter, because you charge for 10 seconds.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Except weight.

The two worst things about the current iMacs is the glass glued to the LCD and the fact they still use the shittiest HDDs in all of recorded history.
I don't care about the weight for a desktop model. The HDD in the 21.5" is insanely bad.

Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I don't think it counts, because you have a choice to buy iMacs with SSDs.

Shitty = no choice

-t
You can get an SSD...if you pay 5 times the market cost for it, and max size is 256GB, which might not be an option if you have more than that to store.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
turtle777
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Jul 4, 2019, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
You can get an SSD...if you pay 5 times the market cost for it, and max size is 256GB, which might not be an option if you have more than that to store.
Not true.

The 256GB limit is only for the 21.5” model, which is THE entriest of entry-level Macs.
For those users, a 1GB Fusion Drive is the better option anyways.

For the 27” iMac, you have options for more SSD space.

Let’s stop whining about Apple SSD cost. It’s like complaining about gravity - it ain’t gonna change. Suck it up.

-t
     
Doc HM
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Jul 4, 2019, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I don't think it counts, because you have a choice to buy iMacs with SSDs.

Shitty = no choice

-t
That fact that Apple offer you a choice is pretty shitty. The fact that making the wrong choice lands you with a machine that would be faster and more reliable if fitted with a cheese sandwich in place of the actual drive is borderline unethical. Especially in a high end machine. The non SSD iMac 21s should have extra branding on them :Warning: may not be worth buying"

But that's an operational shittyness not a design one, so that's on Cook not Ive


Initially I was very anti the bonded glass but I'm less so now. They aren't really that hard to change. The only negative is the environmental one really as previously you could replace the glass or screen.
( Last edited by Doc HM; Jul 4, 2019 at 01:14 PM. )
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Doc HM
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Jul 4, 2019, 01:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Not true.

The 256GB limit is only for the 21.5” model, which is THE entriest of entry-level Macs.


-t
AND that's only a dual core as well. It's so much the runt of the litter it really would be kinder to take it round the back and club it. It's a 2011 computer in 2019.

That Apple sells it AT ALL says nothing good about Apple.
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turtle777
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Jul 4, 2019, 03:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
AND that's only a dual core as well. It's so much the runt of the litter it really would be kinder to take it round the back and club it. It's a 2011 computer in 2019.

That Apple sells it AT ALL says nothing good about Apple.
I don’t understand the fuss about it.

Nobody has to buy it, and Apple has plenty of good options.

If they offered a turd with a bow, people would buy it and complain.
I don’t get it.

-t
     
mindwaves
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Jul 4, 2019, 07:48 PM
 
Yes, was must guessing on the 16” being a real pro machine. No inside knowledge whatsoever, and I’ve been wrong many times before than I care to admit.

The iMacs can be equipped with a fusion drive, yes, but the SSD component has been changed from 24GB to 8GB, or something like that. Apple is just too cheap sometimes.
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Doc HM
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Jul 5, 2019, 05:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I don’t get it.

-t
Can do < should do

Apple can afford to be better. Selling snake oil isn't a long term strategy. Every single customer I have that bought the low spec iMac (lots) had a "suboptimal" experience. They expected a good machine given the a) Apple reputation and b) the Price, they got a machine worth a quarter of what they paid for it,

Making all your customers regret a purchase is not a good thing. Not everyone has your level of understanding of the implications of specific hardware.

And the shityness of the drive IS hidden. There's simply no way customers can know just how cheap and crap the drives apple has chosen for these machines are without in depth technical research.
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reader50
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Jul 5, 2019, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
The iMacs can be equipped with a fusion drive, yes, but the SSD component has been changed from 24GB to 8GB, or something like that. Apple is just too cheap sometimes.
For some reason, I thought the Fusion config was the smallest SSD option + the smallest HD option. ie: 256GB + 1TB HD.

Very cheap Apple. In your volume, you probably get the 256GB SSD for under $20.
     
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Jul 5, 2019, 03:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
.The iMacs can be equipped with a fusion drive, yes, but the SSD component has been changed from 24GB to 8GB, or something like that. Apple is just too cheap sometimes.
The flash component of a Fusion Drive has changed from 128GB to 24GB for the 1TB (it remains 128GB for the bigger Fusion Drives). I have also read, but can not confirm, that the flash component increased back to 32GB for supply reasons in the most recent revision.

Just about any other hybrid drive on the market has 8GB flash, or even less, and it is generally only a read cache.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jul 5, 2019, 03:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
For some reason, I thought the Fusion config was the smallest SSD option + the smallest HD option. ie: 256GB + 1TB HD.

Very cheap Apple. In your volume, you probably get the 256GB SSD for under $20.
They are not the same type of drive. A modern SSD is based on either MLC (2 bits per cell), TLC (3 bits per cell) or QLC (4 bits per cell) along with a small area of SLC (single bit per cell) as a sort of intermediate drive. SLC is more expensive but faster and supports more delete cycles. For a Fusion Drive to work, it likely relies on only SLC flash. I can well believe that the flash component of a Fusion Drive costs the same as - or even more than - the 256 GB SSD option.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jul 5, 2019, 03:50 PM
 
Does Fusion actually need SLC? That makes sense for a drive cache, but Fusion is a managed drive extension. With commonly-accessed files (and certain boot files) kept on the SSD portion. I expect the SSD in Fusion remains read-mostly, as new files should be written to the HD side. Then moved only if they're accessed a lot.

Side note - anyone else annoyed by Newegg not giving SSDs a clear bit-per-cell classification? When I try to narrow things to MLC, it's not always 2-bit, and the other options for memory components (3D, 2D) are not useful distinctions for an end user.
     
turtle777
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Jul 5, 2019, 04:27 PM
 
That’s interesting stuff.

Just shows that it’s never as easy as “I can find the same shit for $x less on teh intarwebs.”

-t
     
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Jul 6, 2019, 04:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Does Fusion actually need SLC? That makes sense for a drive cache, but Fusion is a managed drive extension. With commonly-accessed files (and certain boot files) kept on the SSD portion. I expect the SSD in Fusion remains read-mostly, as new files should be written to the HD side. Then moved only if they're accessed a lot.
Fusion Drive includes a 4GB slice that is effectively a write cache - everything that is written to the drive is written to that slice first. A quick google shows that MLC flash has about 10’000 write cycles at best. Assume for a second that Apple gets great MLC that has this number of cycles, and also assume that they’re wear-leveling like a pro. That means that total drive writes to a 1TB Fusion Drive is 240TB. That seems much too low to me - in fact, I think we would have seen Fusion Drives fail because of flash wearing out by now.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
turtle777
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Jul 6, 2019, 12:53 PM
 
My experience with a Fusion Drive in my 2013 iMac has been great.
No issues so far, and it‘s still pretty snappy.
For non-pro users, I recommend fusion drives.

-t
     
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Jul 6, 2019, 01:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Fusion Drive includes a 4GB slice that is effectively a write cache - everything that is written to the drive is written to that slice first. A quick google shows that MLC flash has about 10’000 write cycles at best. Assume for a second that Apple gets great MLC that has this number of cycles, and also assume that they’re wear-leveling like a pro. That means that total drive writes to a 1TB Fusion Drive is 240TB.
This assumes they used a 24 GB MLC SSD. But if they used MLC, they'd probably go to 250 GB or larger. Total drive writes would become 2.5+ PB.

Do you have a source for them writing everything to the SSD first? While it gives a modest speedup, it does nasty things to the SSD lifespan. Quick googling suggests even SLC only does up to 10x the write cycles of MLC. Which would limit a 24GB SLC SSD to 2.4 PB under ideal conditions.
     
subego  (op)
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Jul 6, 2019, 02:38 PM
 
https://www.anandtech.com/show/6406/...s-fusion-drive

If a write is greater than 4GB, it switches to the HDD.

So not literally everything, but most things.
     
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Jul 6, 2019, 05:32 PM
 
Also, 2.4PB is in line with what a good quality SSD can survive. This test is legendary, even if it gets a bit old by now:

https://techreport.com/review/27909/...heyre-all-dead

Note the Samsung 840 Pro, quite similar in design to one of the ones Apple used to use, died between 2.4 and 2.5PB.

I don’t know that Apple uses SLC for its Fusion Drives, but I think it likely. It isn’t going to be TLC or QLC. MLC is just about barely possible, but the law of big numbers makes it unlikely. Because of pure production variation and some people running their drives exceptionally hard, I think we would have heard of Fusion Drives failing by now if they had total drive writes in the 200TB range.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
turtle777
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Jul 6, 2019, 05:41 PM
 
If SSD failure were to occur in a Fusion Drive, wild the SSD capacity be diminished over time ?
If that were the case, the Fusion Drive would more and more perform like a regular hard drive.

That would be better than the whole drive failing.

-t
     
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Jul 7, 2019, 05:59 AM
 
I don’t know how Apple handles a failing SSD in a Fusion Drive. The fact that it isn’t a cache but an extension, and that some flash drives don’t work to read from when the write cycles are gone, makes me wonder.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jul 9, 2019, 08:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post

Let’s stop whining about Apple SSD cost. It’s like complaining about gravity - it ain’t gonna change. Suck it up.

-t
And as if by magic.....
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
turtle777
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Jul 9, 2019, 09:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
And as if by magic.....
Are you telling all whiners will now shut up ?

-t
     
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Jul 9, 2019, 10:35 PM
 
It's still high. And Apple's offerings suck: your choice of SSD chips soldered down, or using a proprietary M.2 variation. I like standardized interfaces.
     
mindwaves
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Jul 10, 2019, 02:32 AM
 
Apple cut SSD upgrade prices for all models. However, it only affects the highest storage models for the Mac mini. Very disappointing.
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Jul 10, 2019, 04:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
It's still high. And Apple's offerings suck: your choice of SSD chips soldered down, or using a proprietary M.2 variation. I like standardized interfaces.
In principle I agree, but with the current design of using the T2 chip as the controller, that doesn't really make sense anymore. You can connect external drives that are just as fast as the internal ones now - that is good enough for me.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 10, 2019, 07:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Are you telling all whiners will now shut up ?

-t
No, just pointing out that almost the minute you said it would never happen, it happened.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
turtle777
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Jul 10, 2019, 07:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
No, just pointing out that almost the minute you said it would never happen, it happened.
Yeah, except, I didn't say Apple would never LOWER their prices.
Read the context.

What I replied to was that Apple's SSD overpricing strategy is not going to change.
I think I'm still correct. Apple's SSDs are still overpriced.

Or are you telling me that the recent price cut made them reasonably priced ?

-t
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 11, 2019, 11:21 PM
 
I just thought the timing was amusing. I don't know why you're wasting your time nitpicking.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
   
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