[besson3c]

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

So.... you're agreeing with me. True or false: the fact that you have certain "occasional enhancement modules" does not make the mobile device heavier, larger or less portable in any way. I think that we're both saying "true." The question of whether the "occasional enhancement" is merely a charger, vs let's just call it a "supercharger" (bonus horsepower, input and output) has absolutely no bearing on that question.

No I'm saying certain "enhancement modules" as you describe are simply too awkward or irritating to use. Earbuds are not an docking station. Your comparison here is just bizarre.

---

Originally Posted by Eug 

I think people have realized that the one size fits all paradigm is wrought with problems. There is really no point in building a tablet to be as powerful as a laptop at higher cost and higher weight and lower battery life, just to use the thing as a tablet. That's the worst of both worlds.

Meanwhile...

Microsoft Surface - Windows 8 Tablet



Video

Discuss

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Meanwhile...

Microsoft Surface - Windows 8 Tablet



Discuss

Looks to me like Microsoft just announced what Uncle Skeleton is looking for

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

But the point is, it already has modules/accessories necessary for complete function, which don't come along for the ride. One of those modules could be a (larger) keyboard/screen/battery/cpu, without adding any more weight than the charger/data/earbuds/microphone that you already leave in a drawer when they're not needed. They add functionality without taking anything at all away from the portability of the device at those times when they're not in use.

[Cold Warrior]

The Pro seems fat and heavy. The RT is in line with the new iPad.

[DrTacoMD]

The Pro seems more in line to compete with the Air. They even said it would be priced competitively with other Ultrabooks. Not sure how something that heavy would work as a tablet though.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Short answer yes. Long answer... I think a clearly superior design would be to separate the OS choice from the hardware configuration choice, and just say that the user can flip between OS X and iOS any time they want, and they can flip between 'book mode and 'pad mode any time they want, and the expected case is as you describe, but any combination of transitions should be as seamless as possible.



Yeah, like leveraging the "sharing" technology to cluster computing. If you're sharing between your own A5 and Intel cpus, why not share with other machines in your house too?

I wouldn't say one is "not conducive" or whatever, that's too heavy-handed for my taste. I think it's simply a feature to allow the user to decide what's "conducive" for their tastes, on a day-by-day or minute-by-minute basis.


Uh, it's the same way an iPhone is better than having both an iPod Touch and a dumb-phone. You don't want to burden the user with redundant components, especially for mobile devices.

Why aren't you in charge of something? You should lead Apple.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

And it continues. Indeed shut up.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Looks to me like Microsoft just announced what Uncle Skeleton is looking for

You gonna buy one Unc?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Does it run OS X?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Eug 

No I'm saying certain "enhancement modules" as you describe are simply too awkward or irritating to use. Earbuds are not an docking station. Your comparison here is just bizarre.

Using them would be just like using a standard laptop. Are the millions of existing laptops now "simply too awkward or irritating to use?"

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Using them would be just like using a standard laptop. Are the millions of existing laptops now "simply too awkward or irritating to use?"

I think the real issue is you don't know when to stop with a product. You must make compromises and have sharp focus.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Using them would be just like using a standard laptop. Are the millions of existing laptops now "simply too awkward or irritating to use?"

No, because most are not compromised modular designs with high cost and high weight as you describe.

As for Surface, I'm guessing the Pro is going to be $1000, with a crappy keyboard... but it's going to have full-fledged laptop internals, not some weird further modular design that cripples its CPU power as soon as you unplug that crappy keyboard.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Eug 

No, because most are not compromised modular designs with high cost and high weight as you describe.

What makes you think it's high cost or high weight? Wishful thinking?

As for Surface, I'm guessing the Pro is going to be $1000, with a crappy keyboard... but it's going to have full-fledged laptop internals, not some weird further modular design that cripples its CPU power as soon as you unplug that crappy keyboard.

Don't most modern laptops support "crippling" the CPU to enhance mobility (battery life and heat)? I don't get why you're so negative about details that are already ubiquitous.

[ort888]

That surface tablet looks great. When can I buy one and how much does it cost?

[subego]

What do people want to do on the laptop that they can't do on a tablet?

Serious question.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by subego 

What do people want to do on the laptop that they can't do on a tablet?

Serious question.

Type, and and many types of productivity work. Plus, the performance of ARM chips is painfully slow, even for some basic consumption tasks in 2012, although it's a lot better than it used to be.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

What makes you think it's high cost or high weight? Wishful thinking?

What's with your thinking that it will be $500 for the MS Surface Pro for a decently powered x86 CPU (ie. not Atom)? Good luck with your wishful thinking.

Don't most modern laptops support "crippling" the CPU to enhance mobility (battery life and heat)? I don't get why you're so negative about details that are already ubiquitous.

Except that's not what you said at all:

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

They could just have one of each processor, and power down the intel one when it's tablet time. The detachable "dock" option takes care of the weight.

NB: We were talking about ARM + x86, not a modern x86 CPU with power saving modes.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Type, and and many types of productivity work. Plus, the performance of ARM chips is painfully slow, even for some basic consumption tasks in 2012, although it's a lot better than it used to be.

You can use a BT keyboard with a tablet, no?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Eug 

What's with your thinking that it will be $500 for the MS Surface Pro for a decently powered x86 CPU (ie. not Atom)? Good luck with your wishful thinking.

Where did you get the idea that a tablet-book combo would be price competitive with a dedicated tablet? Obviously anything that can fill the roles of 2 existing products is going to compete with the more expensive of the 2 (the notebook), not the cheaper (tablet).

Except that's not what you said at all:

NB: We were talking about ARM + x86, not a modern x86 CPU with power saving modes.

An extension of the same idea though. We already know that people are willing to throttle their intels for more portability (longer life laptops), and we already know that people are willing to switch to ARM for even more portability than that (like iPads). I don't see how offering them this choice on the fly is anything other than an improvement, compared to the status quo in which they only get to choose once, at the register.

So anyways, are you arguing against the comparison now, between the Surface and this thread?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by subego 

You can use a BT keyboard with a tablet, no?

Yeah, and I have, but that doesn't get around the performance issues of ARM... and of course the fact that the productivity software doesn't even exist in iOS. Hell, iOS doesn't even have user accounts. Welcome to 1995. Plus, a tablet with a separate keyboard weighs as much as a laptop... unless you do what MS did and provide a crappy keyboard.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

An extension of the same idea though.

No it's not. It's a completely different set of design issues. You're advocating forcing disparate designs into a clunky combo product.



What's even worse, you're saying we wouldn't even be running the x86 part of it unless we had the dock connected. WTF?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Eug 

No it's not. It's a completely different set of design issues. You're advocating forcing disparate designs into a clunky combo product.

Are you talking about Lion now?

What's even worse, you're saying we wouldn't even be running the x86 part of it unless we had the dock connected. WTF?

Too funny! Your "even worse" scenario is the only option we have now, which is exactly what you're arguing we stick with!

[subego]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Yeah, and I have, but that doesn't get around the performance issues of ARM... and of course the fact that the productivity software doesn't even exist in iOS. Hell, iOS doesn't even have user accounts. Welcome to 1995. Plus, a tablet with a separate keyboard weighs as much as a laptop... unless you do what MS did and provide a crappy keyboard.

So, software-wise, you're talking something MS Suite-like?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by subego 

So, software-wise, you're talking something MS Suite-like?

I think in general, "Office" is a simplified way of talking about many different productivity paradigms. For some people it would be the Adobe apps, for others it would be video or audio editing, for others writing and compiling code and testing it in VMs, for others dedicated (many open-source) scientific apps with or without GUI, etc etc etc. All of these can be talked about as if they were "Office," because they all use the full resources of a modern computer (if not every second, then frequently), and they all demand more than the bare bones level of control you're allowed to exercise as an iOS user.

[subego]

Do you really want to use Photoshop on a gimpy laptop?

I say gimpy compared to, say, a MBP, which will have prolly twice the cores and a real GPU?

This is why I say MS Suite. Anything more taxing is in the "truck" category (IMO).

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by subego 

You can use a BT keyboard with a tablet, no?

I do it all the time. My iPad and BT keyboard go with me everywhere.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by subego 

Do you really want to use Photoshop on a gimpy laptop?

I say gimpy compared to, say, a MBP, which will have prolly twice the cores and a real GPU?

Bingo! That's exactly the reason why it would be an improvement to integrate MBP horsepower with your pad, whether by a dock/module or by some other means. Even if it means you pay MBP prices. This way, you can do your work (on the road), and you can review it (on the can (on the road)), without having to pack two screens, two batteries, and sync your data between two hard drives and two system states (recent items, pasteboard, preferences, etc).

[Eug]

Originally Posted by subego 

Do you really want to use Photoshop on a gimpy laptop?

I say gimpy compared to, say, a MBP, which will have prolly twice the cores and a real GPU?

This is why I say MS Suite. Anything more taxing is in the "truck" category (IMO).

I'm not even concerned about the GPU.

In terms of absolute performance, Atom these days is about twice as fast as ARM per core, but even dual-core Atom is painfully slow with modern OSes and modern software. To get to the point where Windows and Mac OS X aren't painfully slow for 2012, you need about twice the speed of dual-core Atom.

So in other words, you'd probably need something about 4 times as fast as current dual-core ARM chipsets or else people will get quite irritated with it... unless you run an extremely cut down OS like iOS which has severe productivity limitations, including the fact that none of the productivity software actually runs on it.

Quad-core ARM designs would start to get into the dual-core Atom category on properly multi-processor optimized software.

[knifecarrier2]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I think the real issue is you don't know when to stop with a product. You must make compromises and have sharp focus.

And how many products have you put to market?

[knifecarrier2]

Originally Posted by Eug 

No it's not. It's a completely different set of design issues. You're advocating forcing disparate designs into a clunky combo product.



What's even worse, you're saying we wouldn't even be running the x86 part of it unless we had the dock connected. WTF?

I keep forgetting you're so experienced in product development.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by subego 

Do you really want to use Photoshop on a gimpy laptop?

I say gimpy compared to, say, a MBP, which will have prolly twice the cores and a real GPU?

This is why I say MS Suite. Anything more taxing is in the "truck" category (IMO).

MS Office is one of the few productivity apps that will actually run on the base model Surface (at least in a cut down version), since MS has taken the same approach as Apple. Dumbed down tablet Windows like iOS, that breaks all the compatibility with all existing software.

They'd better make this absolutely clear to those who buy the entry level model, because it seems like it will look just like the Pro which will run the full Windows 8.

It'd be like Apple releasing an iOS iPad and a Mac OS X iPad and selling them side by side.

[The Final Shortcut]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I'm not even concerned about the GPU.

In terms of absolute performance, Atom these days is about twice as fast as ARM per core, but even dual-core Atom is painfully slow with modern OSes and modern software. To get to the point where Windows and Mac OS X aren't painfully slow for 2012, you need about twice the speed of dual-core Atom.

So in other words, you'd probably need something about 4 times as fast as current dual-core ARM chipsets or else people will get quite irritated with it... unless you run an extremely cut down OS like iOS which has severe productivity limitations, including the fact that none of the productivity software actually runs on it.

Quad-core ARM designs would start to get into the dual-core Atom category on properly multi-processor optimized software.

I really get the feeling you're talking about something totally different than the people you're arguing with. I say this because you keep bringing up points that don't really address what they're talking about.

For example, no one has suggested that OS X run on ARM processors. In fact, they've suggested exactly the opposite of that. So...yeah.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by knifecarrier2 

I keep forgetting you're so experienced in product development.

Just like I'm sure that Jony Ive and the crew at Apple are very impressed with your product development background.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut 

I really get the feeling you're talking about something totally different than the people you're arguing with. I say this because you keep bringing up points that don't really address what they're talking about.

For example, no one has suggested that OS X run on ARM processors. In fact, they've suggested exactly the opposite of that. So...yeah.

They're suggesting putting ARM and Intel x86 in the same laptop.... errr... tablet, so you can run it as a tablet with a cut down ARM-supporting OS or else x86 once docked to run the full-on OS.

Originally Posted by knifecarrier2 

Microsoft tried for YEARS to throw regular windows OS on a tablet form factor, and it SUCKED. However, OSX and iOS are so similar... imagine being able to "swap" between them? Pull out keyboard and fold into laptop? BLAM! OSX! Fold in keyboard, into tablet mode, BLAM! IOS! It'd be rad. I would love it and hold it and squeeze it. Having two damn near identical sized devices both with retina displays, both with batteries, both with processors.... just... ****, combine the two already. THAT is the future. I'll be sure to dig up this topic in a few years when it happens, just so I can say I told you so.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I agree with ca$h. That would be a great product. The only problem is if people want a bigger-than-10-inch laptop and a smaller-than-13-inch tablet. For a while now I've been anticipating flexible screens. Either a modular screen or a foldable screen could solve this problem. I reckon the technology for that kind of screen is probably only just barely out of reach at this point

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

The iPad weighs about 35% less than a macbook Air, and has about 35% longer battery life. Yes it's a challenge, but it's no "yawning chasm." They could just have one of each processor, and power down the intel one when it's tablet time. The detachable "dock" option takes care of the weight.

In that context: So either your run full-on Mac OS X with support for ARM - totally gimped in ARM mode, or else you run two different OSes (iOS and Mac OS X) with completely different functionality. Or I suppose you can scale up iOS to run on x86. All three are terrible options.

[Spheric Harlot]

The people asking for a single product that will work completely differently depending upon context are actually asking for TWO products.

The only times in history when combining two disparate products into one has worked well is when an entirely new product category is created that is NEITHER, not BOTH.

Everything else is a spork.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Are you talking about Lion now?

Because Lion is an iOS device in what way? Gesture support? A launcher that's existed since the late 80s (as Simple Finder)?

You're just flinging shit and hoping it'll stick. That's not an argument.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Eug 

In that context: So either your run full-on Mac OS X with support for ARM - totally gimped in ARM mode, or else you run two different OSes (iOS and Mac OS X) with completely different functionality. Or I suppose you can scale up iOS to run on x86. All three are terrible options.

Two different OSes with different functionality. Why bother running two different OSes if they have the same functionality? They have different strengths and different weaknesses (which is exactly why a person might want to use both, depending on circumstance), but they also already communicate well with each other, in fact until recently one was dependent on the other. No one said it would be a cake walk to make them appear seamless or combined, but that challenge is a foregone conclusion anyway.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The people asking for a single product that will work completely differently depending upon context are actually asking for TWO products.

The only times in history when combining two disparate products into one has worked well is when an entirely new product category is created that is NEITHER, not BOTH.

Everything else is a spork.

That's not true. A clock-radio is both a clock and a radio. An SUV is both a commuter car and a towing/cargo vehicle. A TV-VCR is both a TV and a VCR. An iPhone is both a phone and something new (ok you're half-right here). The MMR vaccine is a vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella. A can/bottle opener is both a can opener and a bottle opener. Billiard/Ping-pong tables are both a pool table and a ping-pong table. Head & Shoulders is both shampoo and conditioner. A multimeter is both a voltage and current meter. HDMI is both audio and video. The AIO computer (bondi blue iMac) is both screen and computer. Those power outlets with USB ports provide both traditional and USB power. Et cetera ad nauseum.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Because Lion is an iOS device in what way?

In a "disparate and clunky" way, just like you said.

Gesture support? A launcher that's existed since the late 80s (as Simple Finder)?

Exactly. Disparate and clunky.

You're just flinging shit and hoping it'll stick. That's not an argument.

I've been thinking the same about you, but I didn't want to say it.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Those power outlets with USB ports provide both traditional and USB power. Et cetera ad nauseum.

Whats USB power?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

That's not true. A clock-radio is both a clock and a radio.

I'll give you that.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

An SUV is both a commuter car and a towing/cargo vehicle.

It's a shitty truck and an unsafe and inefficient passenger car.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

A TV-VCR is both a TV and a VCR.

You're the second person I've met in my LIFE who owned one.

The TV-VCRs were NEVER the best of either.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

An iPhone is both a phone and something new (ok you're half-right here).

The smartphone is an entirely different product category, yes.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

The MMR vaccine is a vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella.

Come on.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

A can/bottle opener is both a can opener and a bottle opener.

The combinations I've seen and used are rather uncomfortable at either can-opening or at bottle-opening.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Billiard/Ping-pong tables are both a pool table and a ping-pong table.

I know nothing about pool or ping-pong tables, but I'm willing to bet that the things that make a good pool table make it SUCK at being a good ping-pong table (starting with the felt), and vice versa.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Head & Shoulders is both shampoo and conditioner.

And it's not particularly good at either.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

A multimeter is both a voltage and current meter.

The good ones are either dedicated devices or hellishly expensive.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

HDMI is both audio and video.

The video tops out at 1920 at 60 fps, or at 4K at 24 fps. It wouldn't carry the resolution needed for a hi-res iMac, for example.
The audio isn't nearly what dedicated connections (e.g. MADI) are capable of.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

The AIO computer (bondi blue iMac) is both screen and computer.

And it was Apple's low-budget consumer machine.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Those power outlets with USB ports provide both traditional and USB power.

Won't fit in my bag.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Et cetera ad nauseum.

The point is not that such products are impossible. It's just that they're (almost) never better at what dedicated devices are capable of. So they have to do something BETTER than the dedicated devices do, to offer some tangible benefit.

The iPhone was a handheld computer that fit in your pocket. The original iMac was a computer that wasn't a complete iSore, so people could actually imagine putting it in a visually exposed place. That alone put Apple back on the map for consumers.

This proposed hybrid computer will be either a sucky desktop (for lack of horsepower) or a sucky tablet (for way too heavy battery plus the extra bulk of a completely redundant architecture), and probably suffer additionally from the what-the-hell-is-it-now-why-isn't-this-oh-right-I'm-in-the-wrong-mode WTFism.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

In a "disparate and clunky" way, just like you said.

Trackpad gestures are "disparate" from what, exactly? Hot corners?

Is Apple forcing you to use them?

I find them extremely organic and fluid, FWIW.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Whats USB power?

$10 USB Power Outlets Sound Like a No-Brainer

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

It's a shitty truck and an unsafe and inefficient passenger car.

The combinations I've seen and used are rather uncomfortable at either can-opening or at bottle-opening.

I know nothing about pool or ping-pong tables, but I'm willing to bet that the things that make a good pool table make it SUCK at being a good ping-pong table (starting with the felt), and vice versa.

And it's [shampoo/conditioner] not particularly good at either.

The good ones [multimeter] are either dedicated devices or hellishly expensive.

The [HDMI] video tops out at 1920 at 60 fps, or at 4K at 24 fps. It wouldn't carry the resolution needed for a hi-res iMac, for example.
The audio isn't nearly what dedicated connections (e.g. MADI) are capable of.

And it was Apple's low-budget consumer machine.

Don't make a fool of yourself. These things are everywhere. Did people buy them by accident?

The point is not that such products are impossible. It's just that they're (almost) never better at what dedicated devices are capable of. So they have to do something BETTER than the dedicated devices do, to offer some tangible benefit.

No they don't. They didn't achieve 50% market penetration by adding no tangible benefit. The tangible benefit they offer is simplicity. It's streamlining.

I mean, I'm no Windows fan, but they couldn't have sold that many units without "offering some tangible benefit."

Your high falutin "better" audio cables are (almost) never better at delivering maximum sound quality to someone's brain, because 99.99% of the people don't have the biological fidelity to detect the difference. However, 99.99% of people DO benefit from only needing to deal with 1 cable instead of 10. That's the benefit they offer, and they don't need to be "better" at each job, they just need to be "good enough" at all of them.

The iPhone was a handheld computer that fit in your pocket. The original iMac was a computer that wasn't a complete iSore, so people could actually imagine putting it in a visually exposed place. That alone put Apple back on the map for consumers.

It's not just for public places. People don't want all that clutter in their private workspaces either.
Juggling two screens and two batteries in your carry-on bag is an iSore too.

This proposed hybrid computer will be either a sucky desktop (for lack of horsepower) or a sucky tablet (for way too heavy battery plus the extra bulk of a completely redundant architecture), and probably suffer additionally from the what-the-hell-is-it-now-why-isn't-this-oh-right-I'm-in-the-wrong-mode WTFism.

You don't have to leave your iPhone plugged into the power charger just because it has a power charger, and you don't have to carry the keyboard or other expansion module just because it has one of those either.

[knifecarrier2]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Just like I'm sure that Jony Ive and the crew at Apple are very impressed with your product development background.

So because I haven't worked directly for Apple my opinion as someone who's actually in the industry we're talking about is irrelevant?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Trackpad gestures are "disparate" from what, exactly? Hot corners?

From the point-and-click cursor paradigm that made Macintosh what is?

Edit: and the reverse scrolling is a better example.

Is Apple forcing you to use them?

Would they force you to use a tablet-book?

Edit: reverse scrolling is pretty in-your-face for anyone who hasn't jumped into the magic trackpad new world order with both feet.

I find them extremely organic and fluid, FWIW.

Well FWIW I would find it extremely organic and fluid to pop the screen off my laptop when I want to go to the can, or when I want to stick the (heavy parts of the) laptop in my bag so I can walk down the street or ride a bus. Holding the whole 'book sideways with one hand would allow me to keep reading exactly what I was just in the middle of reading (or writing), but it's ergonomically impossible. It just doesn't have to be.

[knifecarrier2]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The only times in history when combining two disparate products into one has worked well is when an entirely new product category is created that is NEITHER, not BOTH.

I can keep going if you want.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The point is not that such products are impossible. It's just that they're (almost) never better at what dedicated devices are capable of. So they have to do something BETTER than the dedicated devices do, to offer some tangible benefit.

Another good counter-example is the plain old camera-phone. The act of combining them doesn't make it a better phone, and it definitely does makes it a worse camera. But the tangible benefit of simplification is HUGE. People want to snap crappy pics on the mobile device in their pocket, but they don't want to carry two mobile electronic devices everywhere. The mere combination of it with something they already have with them offers a great deal of tangible benefit, despite being a slightly worse (larger, heavier, more expensive and reduced battery life) phone and significantly worse camera.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by knifecarrier2 

And how many products have you put to market?

About 5. You?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Another good counter-example is the plain old camera-phone. The act of combining them doesn't make it a better phone, and it definitely does makes it a worse camera. But the tangible benefit of simplification is HUGE. People want to snap crappy pics on the mobile device in their pocket, but they don't want to carry two mobile electronic devices everywhere. The mere combination of it with something they already have with them offers a great deal of tangible benefit, despite being a slightly worse (larger, heavier, more expensive and reduced battery life) phone and significantly worse camera.

The bottom line is that everyone is using convergence devices now. And, by your own admission, nobody wants to carry a bunch of stuff around. That they're willing to use something "worse" because of the mobility.

So you just supported the case that the iPad for instance, which does typing "worse" than a physical keyboard (worse than a laptop), is ok because the benefits of mobility outweigh the negative here.

Or, you think it's too much of a negative and that the iPad is a failure, that we should duct tape a keyboard to the front of it. That we should keep thinking that it should be a mix of the old with the new.

Meanwhile, the zillions of people buying them are using them for all sorts of things where the device is BETTER than a laptop, desktop, or smartphone. Some examples of usage:

1. Reading textbooks, magazines, and PDFs.
2. Surfing the Web.
3. Video.
4. Viewing picture albums.
5. Reading RSS feeds.
6. Vertical markets (clipboard software... hospital use, etc.)

[Wiskedjak]

Is the iPad better with a physical keyboard?
Yes

Is having a physical keyboard better enough that I want my iPad to be twice as thick as it already is?
No

Do I carry around a wireless keyboard with my iPad when I know I'll be doing a lot of typing?
Yes

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Is the iPad better with a physical keyboard?
Yes

Is having a physical keyboard better enough that I want my iPad to be twice as thick as it already is?
No

Do I carry around a wireless keyboard with my iPad when I know I'll be doing a lot of typing?
Yes

You remind me of that guy on that Seinfeld episode who asked rhetorical questions and answered them himself.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by freudling 

The bottom line is that everyone is using convergence devices now. And, by your own admission, nobody wants to carry a bunch of stuff around. That they're willing to use something "worse" because of the mobility.

For consumption? Yes. But people are also willing to carry around a device the size of a laptop. My point is that carrying a laptop with a detachable screen née tablet is better than carrying both a laptop AND a tablet. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that laptops still outnumber tablets.

So you just supported the case that the iPad for instance, which does typing "worse" than a physical keyboard (worse than a laptop), is ok because the benefits of mobility outweigh the negative here.

For consumption? Yes, absolutely.

Or, you think it's too much of a negative and that the iPad is a failure, that we should duct tape a keyboard to the front of it. That we should keep thinking that it should be a mix of the old with the new.

For creation? Yes. You'd be hard pressed to argue otherwise. Maybe subego will do it for you. I hope he does, that would be interesting and a lot more civil

Meanwhile, the zillions of people buying them are using them for all sorts of things where the device is BETTER than a laptop, desktop, or smartphone. Some examples of usage:

1. Reading textbooks, magazines, and PDFs.
2. Surfing the Web.
3. Video.
4. Viewing picture albums.
5. Reading RSS feeds.
6. Vertical markets (clipboard software... hospital use, etc.)

Save your breath, it's a good device, for consumption. I notice you only listed consumption activities, and that's because you must. People do use it for creation, but no one is going to argue it's actually better for it. There are more content consumers than content creators. But that doesn't mean creation isn't important.

I haven't bought a tablet, haven't even considered it (unless you count an ipod touch?). And it's because content creation is hopeless there. Subego once mentioned that the spelling-predictor or whatever it's called is vital for typing on iOS. I want to write code on my portable, you can't do that in iOS. Even if the software was there, you're not going to get the workarounds like spelling-predictor that apparently make it usable in the first place. That's why from my perspective, the iPad is a failure, and I'm using an atom-based hackintosh instead. It's dog slow and cramped and heavier, but at least it meets the bare-bones requirements that I need, and the iPad doesn't.

Of course, I also use it for consumption, and for those times it would be insanely great if I could just leave the keyboard/base in my backpack and carry the 10-inch screen around. I'm not going to travel with two 10-inch screens just for that purpose though.