[Athens]

http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/ser...rrests20050308

Young people are sooo stupid. 2 lives are distroyed, one is dead and the other has been affected for the rest of his life and all over 12.00. Last night some stupid young teens decided it would be cool to gas and run, and another stupid young man 24 decided his life wasent worth more then 12 bucks when he jumped in front of the car so it couldnt get away. The end result which gets me is the guys in the car drove 7.5 KM (5 miles) with the gas station attendant under the car killing him. He was screaming for at least 3 KM maybe longer before he died. What the hell is wrong with people. 12 dollars isnt worth killing some one for and 12 dollars isnt worth dieing for. Its fustrating to think there are so many stupid people out there.

[jbartone]

Originally posted by Athens:
http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/ser...rrests20050308

Young people are sooo stupid. 2 lives are distroyed, one is dead and the other has been affected for the rest of his life and all over 12.00. Last night some stupid young teens decided it would be cool to gas and run, and another stupid young man 24 decided his life wasent worth more then 12 bucks when he jumped in front of the car so it couldnt get away. The end result which gets me is the guys in the car drove 7.5 KM (5 miles) with the gas station attendant under the car killing him. He was screaming for at least 3 KM maybe longer before he died. What the hell is wrong with people. 12 dollars isnt worth killing some one for and 12 dollars isnt worth dieing for. Its fustrating to think there are so many stupid people out there.

And what's the bet, they'll get off with a light sentence, because the poor diddums came from "broken homes"

Actually, just yesterday, about a minute from where I live, a bunch of robbers shot a guard in the head execution style as he lay on the ground, in the middle of day, with shoppers all around, even after the guard had complied with their demands. People like this guy should either be killed or locked up for a LONG time.

[Athens]

Originally posted by jbartone:
And what's the bet, they'll get off with a light sentence, because the poor diddums came from "broken homes"

Actually, just yesterday, about a minute from where I live, a bunch of robbers shot a guard in the head execution style as he lay on the ground, in the middle of day, with shoppers all around, even after the guard had complied with their demands. People like this guy should either be killed or locked up for a LONG time.

The max for that murder with a car is 5 years, and when they where talking about it on the news they couldnt find a single person in history every sentanced to the max. Its usally 2 years. Of course while this happened the law is being updated to a harsher sentance. Best bet the kids will get 4 years for the murder.

[deej5871]

Originally posted by Athens:
http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/ser...rrests20050308

Young people are sooo stupid. 2 lives are distroyed, one is dead and the other has been affected for the rest of his life and all over 12.00. Last night some stupid young teens decided it would be cool to gas and run, and another stupid young man 24 decided his life wasent worth more then 12 bucks when he jumped in front of the car so it couldnt get away. The end result which gets me is the guys in the car drove 7.5 KM (5 miles) with the gas station attendant under the car killing him. He was screaming for at least 3 KM maybe longer before he died. What the hell is wrong with people. 12 dollars isnt worth killing some one for and 12 dollars isnt worth dieing for. Its fustrating to think there are so many stupid people out there.

I don't think you can fault the gas station attendant in this instance at all. I highly doubt he thought the 2 guys would run him over when he stepped in front of the car. I mean, do you seriously think he thought $12 was worth dying for? No, he probably thought the guys would stop, and he'd be able to get them to pay.

[legacyb4]

Sheesh, they should at least tie the boys up to the back of a truck, drag them for 7.5 km, and if they happen to survive, then they get to go free...

[JohnSmithXTREME]

I don't know, $12 could buy one of those links on eBay that promise a free PSP.. Frankly, that could be something worth dying for.

[James L]

Originally posted by Athens:
The max for that murder with a car is 5 years, and when they where talking about it on the news they couldnt find a single person in history every sentanced to the max. Its usally 2 years. Of course while this happened the law is being updated to a harsher sentance. Best bet the kids will get 4 years for the murder.

Actually Athens, they charged him today with second degree murder I think.. which in Canada, for an adult, can carry a life sentence as the max, with no parole eligibility for at least 10 years.

If sentenced as a young offender, on the other hand, it would be far less. Under the new youth offender laws, howver, the judge has sole judegment on whether or not the kid is sentenced as an adult.

Cheers,

James

edit: On that note, this was a murder that occured during the commitment of another crime, which usually brings on a much harsher penalty. Here is to hoping this kid is charged as an adult.

[Athens]

Originally posted by James L:
Actually Athens, they charged him today with second degree murder I think.. which in Canada, for an adult, can carry a life sentence as the max, with no parole eligibility for at least 10 years.

If sentenced as a young offender, on the other hand, it would be far less. Under the new youth offender laws, howver, the judge has sole judegment on whether or not the kid is sentenced as an adult.

Cheers,

James

edit: On that note, this was a murder that occured during the commitment of another crime, which usually brings on a much harsher penalty. Here is to hoping this kid is charged as an adult.

Ya I saw that in the news today, I hope they get charged as adults too. Not because they ran him over but because they kept driving with him screaming for KM's. There is totally something wrong with those kids.

The other comment about the guy jumping in front, 1 dollar, 100 dollars you never risk your life for work. If I get robbed and put up a fight im fired for that very reason, same at my moms and grandmas work. If he didnt jump in front of the car he would be alive, the other 2 guys wouldnt have there entire lives messed up either.

A few friends from school knew the guy killed. They are just waiting for the other 2 to get out of jail.

[spacefreak]

Why is this in the Political Lounge?

[OldManMac]

Prisons are full of people who don't give a sheot about someone else. Sad, but true, fact of life.

[James L]

Originally posted by Athens:
A few friends from school knew the guy killed. They are just waiting for the other 2 to get out of jail.

...so they can reduce themselves to the same level as the killers and commit a crime too?

Not worth it. It won't bring the victim back, and won't make them feel any better.

[Athens]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Why is this in the Political Lounge?

Why are you in the Political / War Lounge?


Anyways more info came out today, the 16 year old was on Meth and freaked out when he ran him over. Worse the reason they drove around so long he was looking for a hospital for the guy he ran over. Guess he didnt clue in that he should have just stopped and called 911.

[jbartone]

They should get atleast 15-20 years each.

[Buckaroo]

For committing Murder in the commision of a crime. They should get life in jail without the possiblity of parole.

[Athens]

Originally posted by Buckaroo:
For committing Murder in the commision of a crime. They should get life in jail without the possiblity of parole.

No 10 years I think should be the max, A there only kids and kids make mistakes, B they where on drugs. Its not like they went out to kill some one on purpose. This kid is already a victum of his parents screwups as parents and the nations screwups with no dealing with him sooner. It would only be another screwup to lock him up for life. The only people that should be locked up for life are the ones that go out to kill people, not the ones that are accedents.

[jbartone]

Originally posted by Athens:
No 10 years I think should be the max, A there only kids and kids make mistakes, B they where on drugs. Its not like they went out to kill some one on purpose. This kid is already a victum of his parents screwups as parents and the nations screwups with no dealing with him sooner. It would only be another screwup to lock him up for life. The only people that should be locked up for life are the ones that go out to kill people, not the ones that are accedents.

Well this mistake cost someone their life. And the fact that they were on drugs should increase the sentence.

[Buckaroo]

Originally posted by Athens:
No 10 years I think should be the max, A there only kids and kids make mistakes, B they where on drugs. Its not like they went out to kill some one on purpose. This kid is already a victum of his parents screwups as parents and the nations screwups with no dealing with him sooner. It would only be another screwup to lock him up for life. The only people that should be locked up for life are the ones that go out to kill people, not the ones that are accedents.

BS.

They were committing multiple crimes.
1) Taking illegal drugs.
2) Auto Theft.
3) Gas Theft.
4) Hit and Run
5) Murder

They should spend the rest of their life in jail and never see the light of day again.

[Athens]

Originally posted by jbartone:
Well this mistake cost someone their life. And the fact that they were on drugs should increase the sentence.

That lost life took 2 mistakes, the mistake of the driver and the mistake of the guy jumping in front of the car.

[Athens]

Originally posted by Buckaroo:
BS.

They were committing multiple crimes.
1) Taking illegal drugs.
2) Auto Theft.
3) Gas Theft.
4) Hit and Run
5) Murder

They should spend the rest of their life in jail and never see the light of day again.

1) People Shouldnt go to jail for taking drugs!
2) Not Worth Life in jail
3) Not Worth Life in jail
4) Worth Jail time, not life in jail
5) Wasent planned, it was accedental death while under the influince of drugs, and he didn't target the guy to kill him, the guy jumped in front of the car. 10 Years Max.

[jbartone]

20 years + repeatedly raped in jail sounds fair to me.

[Athens]

Originally posted by jbartone:
20 years + repeatedly raped in jail sounds fair to me.

Take a 16 year old kid, put him in jail for 20 years what you have is a 36 year old coming out with no life skills, no people skills, who has had a chance how to learn to be a better criminal from other criminals in jail for 20 years and guess what he will do when he comes out. Hes going to live the only life he has known and make money the only way he knows how. 25 year old ya fine but a 16 year old still has a shot in life and a chance to make things right.

[SVass]

We have a president who authorizes kidnapping and shipping people to foreign jails to be tortured. We have an attorney general who authorizes torture and murder of captured combatants in direct violation of criminal law. We do not even put military officers on trial for their war crimes. We have a hypocritical public that wants to jail minor offenders to life imprisonment. And you wonder why a teenager thinks that killing others is acting like a normal adult. Quoting someone notorious for his crimes, "Let he is without sin cast the first stone". sam

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by Athens:
http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/ser...rrests20050308

Young people are sooo stupid. 2 lives are distroyed, one is dead and the other has been affected for the rest of his life and all over 12.00. Last night some stupid young teens decided it would be cool to gas and run, and another stupid young man 24 decided his life wasent worth more then 12 bucks when he jumped in front of the car so it couldnt get away. The end result which gets me is the guys in the car drove 7.5 KM (5 miles) with the gas station attendant under the car killing him. He was screaming for at least 3 KM maybe longer before he died. What the hell is wrong with people. 12 dollars isnt worth killing some one for and 12 dollars isnt worth dieing for. Its fustrating to think there are so many stupid people out there.

$12.00 is enough for your crack fix.

A week before I left Toronto for Montreal, back in October last year, my appartment was broke in. They took the change on the table, about $20. They did not take anything else that would have been useful for sale, as I was packing at the time. I know they were crackheads because there was a broken plastica stylo casing on the floor. This is common behavior for those guys; the onjectives is to do something about the fix, and the reality around them is all twisted.

Anyway, I hope they will not get prison for life, but I do not want them back on the street without assurance they will not go back in their addiction and kill more people. It is not so much about mistakes as it is about being able to manage the addiction and its consequences.

Of course, all this could have been avoided but we will never see that gas station attendant. This is so sad.

[bubblewrap]

The man they killed got an execution with no trial.
His family has a life sentence. You don't "get over it" I know first hand.

These kids should pay for the rest of their lives.
Being on drugs of no excuse for their actions.
Too bad. Lock them up for life.
They knew it's illegal to hit someone with a a car intentionally.
And it's murder when it's NOT an accident.

It's time to take the streets back from criminals.

It's time for parents to start being parents again. Instead of letting the streets and TV raise them.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
The man they killed got an execution with no trial.
His family has a life sentence. You don't "get over it" I know first hand.

These kids should pay for the rest of their lives.
Being on drugs of no excuse for their actions.
Too bad. Lock them up for life.
They knew it's illegal to hit someone with a a car intentionally.
And it's murder when it's NOT an accident.

How long they should be pay is a matter of assessing what they deserve by a Court of Law.

No one said taking drugs is any excuse for homicide. It does not justify it; it explains it.

It's time to take the streets back from criminals.

They don't, certainly not in Canada.

It's time for parents to start being parents again. Instead of letting the streets and TV raise them.

Agreed 100%

[Athens]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
The man they killed got an execution with no trial.
His family has a life sentence. You don't "get over it" I know first hand.

These kids should pay for the rest of their lives.
Being on drugs of no excuse for their actions.
Too bad. Lock them up for life.
They knew it's illegal to hit someone with a a car intentionally.
And it's murder when it's NOT an accident.

It's time to take the streets back from criminals.

Look at your own countries stats to see if that attitude works. You might be in for a shock.

It's time for parents to start being parents again. Instead of letting the streets and TV raise them.

Agreed! and thats where the first failure of this accedent happened. Which is why they dont deserve life.

[James L]

This is an interesting argument (that of what is the just punishment for these murdering kids).

It has been proving often that life sentences and death penalties do NOT serve as a deterrent against commiting these types of crimes.

So, with that in mind, why do we have life sentences and capital punishment (well, not all areas have capital punishment but you know what I mean)? One argument would be to protect the general public from an offender that will kill again.

While sound in many cases... does that hold water in all?

Extended jail terms do not rehabilitate criminals often... it only places them into an environment with their peers where they can learn and become more skilled as a criminal, not too mention more bitter. What are the chances that this person will recommit if and when they are released back into society?

I am all for life sentences (and capital punishment for that matter), if the criminal poses an ongoing threat to society.

I know for a fact, however, that placing a person who was not a career criminal into jail for 20 or 30 years is only going to release a potential monster back into society for my children to fear.

It is a tough call, and a much more difficult topic than to simply say "do the crime, do the time".

[SVass]

You are missing the point. As long as the governors and their sycophants condone and commit heinous crimes themselves, there will be those who commit similar acts. No punishment or treatment can help these perpetrators or prevent them from continuing a life of crime when given the opportunity. Canadians may regard themselves as innocent; but, they cooperate with the guilty. I believe that the Torah pointed out that we bring this on ourselves. sam

[Athens]

Originally posted by James L:
This is an interesting argument (that of what is the just punishment for these murdering kids).

It has been proving often that life sentences and death penalties do NOT serve as a deterrent against commiting these types of crimes.

So, with that in mind, why do we have life sentences and capital punishment (well, not all areas have capital punishment but you know what I mean)? One argument would be to protect the general public from an offender that will kill again.

While sound in many cases... does that hold water in all?

Extended jail terms do not rehabilitate criminals often... it only places them into an environment with their peers where they can learn and become more skilled as a criminal, not too mention more bitter. What are the chances that this person will recommit if and when they are released back into society?

I am all for life sentences (and capital punishment for that matter), if the criminal poses an ongoing threat to society.

I know for a fact, however, that placing a person who was not a career criminal into jail for 20 or 30 years is only going to release a potential monster back into society for my children to fear.

It is a tough call, and a much more difficult topic than to simply say "do the crime, do the time".

I think boot camp would be the best option for young kids that turn out like this one. They learn the disapline they didnt get from the parents. They end up in a structured enviroment that teachs life skills. Mix a bad egg with other bad eggs you get a worse egg. Put a bad egg in with a bunch of good eggs the bad egg might become a better egg. If the parents and social services didnt fail this kid wouldnt be where he is today. We should work on fixing past mistakes not locking them up.

[Athens]

Originally posted by SVass:
You are missing the point. As long as the governors and their sycophants condone and commit heinous crimes themselves, there will be those who commit similar acts. No punishment or treatment can help these perpetrators or prevent them from continuing a life of crime when given the opportunity. Canadians may regard themselves as innocent; but, they cooperate with the guilty. I believe that the Torah pointed out that we bring this on ourselves. sam

Give me a break American policies are bad but not as bad as you make it out to be. And Canada dosent cooperate with the US on many of the policies, if we did we wouldnt have a pissed off Bush at us. And having enemy combatants locked up some where does not create kid monsters. These messed up kids have no clue whats going on in politics or outside there own streets so you cant use that as a excuse.

[Athens]

VANCOUVER � The parents of the man who died while trying to stop a gas thief in Maple Ridge say they hope one day to be able to forgive the person who killed their son.


Doug and Corinne De Patie speak with reporters about their son's death

Corinne and Doug De Patie say they won't allow themselves to be consumed by hate after 24-year-old Grant De Patie was run over by a stolen car in Maple Ridge and dragged more than seven kilometres to his death.

"Hate won't bring my son back," says his father, Doug.

"We'll be angry, but we won't hate," says Corinne.

A 16-year-old Maple Ridge boy has been arrested and charged with second-degree murder in connection with De Patie's death.

"You can't point a finger at this child. He's the product of the community and of neglect," says Doug De Patie.

And he adds that the community can no longer turn a blind eye to young people who steal cars or engage in other criminal behaviour.

Thought it would be interesting to post the parents comments of the man how was killed.

http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/ser...-patie20050311

[bubblewrap]

It's the community's fault?

Well, hell, try the community!
No personal acountability. That's another problem.
No one has any persona; acountability now. Your actions are everyone elses fault. What ********.
Kids have no fear of retribution. You can't punish or discipline them.
And somehow this is the communities fault?
It takes a parent to raise a child. It takes a village to raise a criminal.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
It's the community's fault?

Well, hell, try the community!
No personal acountability. That's another problem.
No one has any persona; acountability now. Your actions are everyone elses fault. What ********.
Kids have no fear of retribution. You can't punish or discipline them.
And somehow this is the communities fault?
It takes a parent to raise a child. It takes a village to raise a criminal.

Yes. You got it right.

Personal accountability is not denied here; the kid will be try and will see punishment.

But the parents and the community also share a responsibility; as you wrote yourself earlier:

It's time for parents to start being parents again. Instead of letting the streets and TV raise them.

which blames the community!

1) How come parents are not raising their children closer?
2) How has it become that TV would take such a volume of attention, and for children anyway?

The idea is not to blame the TV or the parents; it is about to provide the right care for people who deserve it the most. If parents are allowed more time to be parents, the children less unmonitorred freedom in overcrowded schools, we might get to something better.

Beating children up is showing that violence makes people right, which is wrong; it only shows people that violence is the only solution, which is not.

You are reacting because you feel another type of retribution should be used. We feel there are other ways than violence. But we all seek justice nevertheless.

[bubblewrap]

So put them in time out? Yeah, that teaches personal responsibility.

My parents worked full time.
I was discplined.(I got whipped with a blet when I showed my ass)
I NEVER got in serious trouble.
I respected the law.
I respect authority.
I stayed in school.
I shunned the garbage of the community.
I shunned narcotics.
My life was not "perfect".
I made MY OWN WAY.

I am NOT a product of the community.

People expect entitlements now.
Instead of earning them.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
So put them in time out? Yeah, that teaches personal responsibility.

My parents worked full time.
I was discplined.(I got whipped with a blet when I showed my ass)
I NEVER got in serious trouble.
I respected the law.
I respect authority.
I stayed in school.
I shunned the garbage of the community.
I shunned narcotics.
My life was not "perfect".
I made MY OWN WAY.

I am NOT a product of the community.

People expect entitlements now.
Instead of earning them.

This is where it is clear that we have an important cultural divergence here. That does not make you worse or better; we are just different. Please appreciate this.

By the way, if you made your own way, you mean that once you were born, you were throwned in the ditch for your own survival?

Finally, these kids were making their own way, and if it had not been for that guy who thought showing up in front of the car, they would have made it safely home and could have turned into the President of The United States.

[bubblewrap]

But they chose to use narcotics and steal too. Then ran to avoid acountability. And that is OK?
You left those parts out.


I WORKED my way through collage.
I WORKED to pay for my flight training.
I WORKED for free to get in my hours.
How is this a "cultural difference?
It's "culture" to take from others?

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
But they chose to use narcotics and steal too. Then ran to avoid acountability. And that is OK?
You left those parts out.


I WORKED my way through collage.
I WORKED to pay for my flight training.
I WORKED for free to get in my hours.
How is this a "cultural difference?
It's "culture" to take from others?

I left none of these parts out. Please read my posts carefully:

Personal accountability is not denied here; the kid will be try and will see punishment.

btw, "collage" is spelled "c-o-l-l-e-g-e".

And you see everything from your own point of view which is half right. The other half is one you try to understand how some of us in Canada look at things. You don't have to like it, but if you do not make an effort to understand, we won't have a discussion here.

[bubblewrap]

A lot of US citizens see things that way too.
I'm not attacking Canada or it's citizens.
I respect the Canadian people.
I refuse to accept that crime and lack of accountablilty is to become "normal". If that's the case, then society cannot function as a peacful community. Bad behavior is not to be rewarded.

Cut me some slack on my spelling. I just got in from working all night - K?

[Buckaroo]

If they are weak on punishing their criminals, then they will all eventually be run over and killed by the criminals.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
A lot of US citizens see things that way too.
I'm not attacking Canada or it's citizens.
I respect the Canadian people.
I refuse to accept that crime and lack of accountablilty is to become "normal". If that's the case, then society cannot function as a peacful community. Bad behavior is not to be rewarded.

Who says they will be rewarded?

Cut me some slack on my spelling. I just got in from working all night - K?

Some humor does not hurt - right?

[bubblewrap]

Lack of detourant is a reward.
It encourages negative behavior.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
Lack of detourant is a reward.
It encourages negative behavior.

How is there a lack of deterrant? Where did you read that?

[Buckaroo]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:
How is there a lack of deterrant? Where did you read that?

A slap on the wrist for Murder in the commission of a crime is "lack of deterrant".

Anything less than Life in Prison without the possiblity of parole is "lack of deterrant".

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by James L:
It has been proving often that life sentences and death penalties do NOT serve as a deterrent against commiting these types of crimes.

No, no it hasn't.

I know a lot of people that would have shot someone had they not gotten life, or the DP for it.

What you MEAN is the people that are in prison right now because of such things, it wasn't a deterrent for them.

That doesn't mean it's not a deterrent for many other people. Nor has it ever been "proven"

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by Buckaroo:
A slap on the wrist for Murder in the commission of a crime is "lack of deterrant".

Anything less than Life in Prison without the possiblity of parole is "lack of deterrant".

Who said the kid will not get life?

Are you a judge? Do you have all the facts yet?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
INo personal acountability. That's another problem.
No one has any persona; acountability now. Your actions are everyone elses fault. What ********.
Kids have no fear of retribution. You can't punish or discipline them.
And somehow this is the communities fault?
It takes a parent to raise a child. It takes a village to raise a criminal.

Indeed.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:
This is where it is clear that we have an important cultural divergence here. That does not make you worse or better; we are just different. Please appreciate this.

No, that is more Politically Correct nonsense.

There is good and bad. There is right and wrong.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

No, that is more Politically Correct nonsense.

There is good and bad. There is right and wrong. [/B]

Yep. You are either black or white. Forget any colors in between. Radicalization of positions is also a diversion from the real issues. Again, no one is going to provide freebies to the criminal. It is all part of a different understanding of the causes.

But I am not going to debate with you on these considerations. Justice will be applied and the kid will get what he deserves whether you agree or not. Painting it as Political Correctedness is your nonsense.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:
Yep. You are either black or white. Forget any colors in between.

No, I didn't say that either. Stop putting words in my mouth. That is called dishonest debating.

Of course there are grey areas. There is also right and wrong.

Radicalization of positions is also a diversion from the real issues. Again, no one is going to provide freebies to the criminal. It is all part of a different understanding of the causes.

But I am not going to debate with you on these considerations. Justice will be applied and the kid will get what he deserves whether you agree or not. Painting it as Political Correctedness is your nonsense.

Nope. You'd have a case if everyone in said "cultural divergence" acted the same way.

You'd have a point. But that isn't the case. There are kids and adults in similar situations as people who do bad things. And they choose NOT to do these bad things.

No one makes you do wrong, other than yourself. That is YOUR choice.

It's about taking responsibilities for your OWN actions.

You can post a bunch of politically correct nonsense, and it will be just that.

People make their own choices. And those choices make up what that person is.

[bubblewrap]

It's a parent's responsibility to teach it.
Do unto others and all.
A school is not a daycare center.

If parents put their children first and not their own selfish wants like DRUGS, ALCOHOL and CLUBBING(partying) ****ING AROUND, wayward children might grow up straight.
It's NOT the community's responsibility to ensure a parent's selfish wants over their children's needs.(IE raising their children)
When you start a family, it's time to grow up and cut the **** out.