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I agree it was not a strong enough condemnation. I attribute that more to incompetence than actually supporting them, but that's just me.
It's not incompetence. When Trump cares he gives his thoughts swiftly, loudly, and repeatedly. When it come to the alt-right and the like, none of those apply.
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Aug 15, 2017, 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
He's full of shit and trying to represent support that doesn't exist. Despots like Spencer need to believe they have the approval of authority figures.
Honest question: have white natinoalists/nazis/etc. said this same type of thing about any of the last few presidents?
“We are determined to take our country back. We are going to fulfill the promises of Donald Trump,” said [Former Ku Klux Klan Grand Wizard David Duke], speaking at the rally. “That’s what we believed in, that’s why we voted for Donald Trump. Because he said he’s going to take our country back. That’s what we gotta do.”
What's different about this administration that these groups feel empowered?
I agree it was not a strong enough condemnation. I attribute that more to incompetence than actually supporting them, but that's just me.
His fear is that he'll alienate someone who likes him, he wants people to like him, even if he doesn't agree with what they do. It's a sign of weak principles, just like how most Left-wing politicians and the MSM won't openly condemn Antifa, though I imagine they probably would if seriously cornered.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
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Aug 15, 2017, 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
It seems the person who was run over was a victim of someone driving away in a panic.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
It appears the driver of the car that killed the anti-protester at the demonstration was also a member of the anti-protest. IOW, a left-wing protester (presumably a part of Antifa) killed another left-wing protester.
Knowing what we know now, do you feel like the media deceived you? Why did you happen to land on this viewpoint before all of the facts were out?
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Aug 15, 2017, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
His fear is that he'll alienate someone who likes him, he wants people to like him, even if he doesn't agree with what they do. It's a sign of weak principles, just like how most Left-wing politicians and the MSM won't openly condemn Antifa, though I imagine they probably would if seriously cornered.
How would any of Trump's responses be different if he did secretly support the white nationalists and nazis?
"Deceived"? No, later on I found out the car that had hit the woman had been owned by a Bernie supporter. It was all a chaotic mess, which is why I said "seems", "appears", etc.. What's your angle here?
Originally Posted by Laminar
How would any of Trump's responses be different if he did secretly support the white nationalists and nazis?
No idea.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Is anyone particularly surprised? Trump is quick to attack nearly anyone EXCEPT Vladimir Putin and his alt-right, white nationalist, and other far right political supporters who are motivated primarily by racial grievance. I mean come on people this is a man who launched his political career by unabashedly promoting Birtherism in response to the election of the first African-American POTUS. His "many sides" comment was a very obvious dog-whistle to this segment of his political base.
President Donald Trump went off script and used his own words Saturday when he made that controversial decision to condemn "many sides" of the unrest in Charlottesville, Virginia, rather than to single out white supremacists, two White House officials told ABC News.
"Those were his own words," one senior White House official said of the "on many sides" comment, explicitly adding that those three words "were not" in his prepared remarks.
This is the second time in two weeks that impromptu words from the president on matters of national importance caused significant headaches for the White House. Last Tuesday, the president used bellicose language not approved by his national security team to address the situation in North Korea, telling reporters that North Korean leader Kim Jong Un would be met with "fire and fury" if he continued to make threats against the United States. That comment sent allies around the world into a mild panic, wondering if Trump was truly considering pre-emptive military action against North Korea.
Trump's penchant for improvisation on hugely sensitive topics brings into question the ability of his new chief of staff, retired Gen. John Kelly, to bring the White House into order.
Trump's words and his failure to call out specific hate groups Saturday drew such broad backlash that he was forced Monday to issue a clarifying statement, in which he said "racism is evil" and condemned groups by name, including the Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazis.
But in his initial televised response to the violence over the weekend, Trump struck a different tone.
"We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides," Trump said Saturday from his golf resort in Bedminster, New Jersey. Looking directly at the camera, he repeated, "On many sides."
I forgot to add, even if Trump is indifferent or even incompetent that doesn't change that he has a few in his administration who support this shit. How can I take seriously condemnations from a president whose senior advisors job before joining his campaign was running an alt-right news site?
Is anyone particularly surprised? Trump is quick to attack nearly anyone EXCEPT Vladimir Putin and his alt-right, white nationalist, and other far right political supporters who are motivated primarily by racial grievance. I mean come on people this is a man who launched his political career by unabashedly promoting Birtherism in response to the election of the first African-American POTUS. His "many sides" comment was a very obvious dog-whistle to this segment of his political base.
^^ Or it was because there are legitimately many sides? Duh? Even the NY Times reporter on the scene admitted that.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Reports were the police bailed when antifa started tossing teargas canisters.
and spraying the whole area w/ bear mace (some truly vile stuff that will literally melt your eyes).
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
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Aug 15, 2017, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
"Deceived"? No, later on I found out the car that had hit the woman had been owned by a Bernie supporter. It was all a chaotic mess, which is why I said "seems", "appears", etc.. What's your angle here?
A racist, white nationalist Trump supporter repeatedly ran his car into a crowd of presumably liberal anti-protesters, killing one and injuring dozens. Before we actually have any information, you feel compelled to repeat misinformation about the driver and his motives?
No idea.
But you're certain he doesn't support this racist white-nationalist movement?
(
Last edited by Laminar; Aug 16, 2017 at 12:00 PM.
)
I agree it was not a strong enough condemnation. I attribute that more to incompetence than actually supporting them, but that's just me.
Actually, go back and looking at how many times he's disavowed white supremacists, I do have to wonder what more some on the Left could want?
Right now it looks more like all the disavowing he has done is being mostly ignored.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
A group of some 100 white nationalists marched on the University of Virginia campus in Charlottesville, VA, Friday night carrying tiki torches and chanting Nazi slogans including “Sieg heil” and “blood and soil” and giving the Nazi salute.
The march was a prelude to a larger planned “Unite the Right” rally on Saturday to protest the removal of a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee in a park in Charlottesville. Leaders of the “alt-right” are scheduled to speak before an audience of hundreds of right-wing activists.
At one point during Friday night’s rally, a brawl broke out when demonstrators — nearly all white men — surrounded a small group of counterprotesters who were peacefully surrounding a statue of Thomas Jefferson at the center of campus. Counterprotesters reported being hit with pepper spray by marchers; according to the Washington Post, one counterprotester also used a “chemical spray” against marchers. “They completely surrounded us and wouldn’t let us out,” local activist Emily Gorcenski told the Guardian.
A racist, white nationalist Trump support repeatedly ran his car into a crowd of presumably liberal anti-protesters, killing one and injuring dozens. Before we actually have any information, you feel compelled to repeat misinformation about the driver and his motives?
Ah, that's the angle I thought, nevermind. People can do crazy shit when in a bad situation, like hit the gas when they meant to hit the brake, it's common. I figured it had been a terrible accident. Why else would a person whom I believed could have been with Antifa* run over other Antifa members? A part of me was wanting to believe it wasn't murder.
Anyway, since you're saying I "attributed motives" when I didn't, are you going to post a retraction of that accusation?
(* due to their car plates being traced back to someone who had supported Sanders, but it was later found that the car now belonged to someone else)
But you're certain he doesn't support this racist white-nationalist movement?
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Actually, go back and looking at how many times he's disavowed white supremacists, I do have to wonder what more some on the Left could want?
Right now it looks more like all the disavowing he has done is being mostly ignored.
Actually these are clips of Trump making such "disavowals" after being conspicuously silent and/or ducking the question for WEEKS. The man has to be dragged kicking and screaming to do this. As was the case AGAIN in response to the events in Charlottesville.
White supremacists do shitty things, they're not good people, we've already talked about that. The problem is, Antifa was also there, in the 100s, causing mayhem and doing bad things. It was two groups attacking each other and doing bad things, as the NY Times reporter I quoted clearly wrote. Ok? Got it?
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Actually these are clips of Trump making such "disavowals" after being conspicuously silent and/or ducking the question for WEEKS. The man has to be dragged kicking and screaming to do this.
Dozens of times he's "been dragged". I've never seen someone get dragged around "kicking and screaming" so often. Crazy. It's almost as if he's being badgered to hell, by a bunch of morons who can't remember the last time he disavowed these groups, and is tired of repeating himself?
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
White supremacists do shitty things, they're not good people, we've already talked about that.
You mean like brutally beat a black man with wooden planks and sticks 5 against 1? I certainly agree with you on this.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
The problem is, Antifa was also there, in the 100s, causing mayhem and doing bad things. It was two groups attacking each other and doing bad things, as the NY Times reporter I quoted clearly wrote. Ok? Got it?
But then you go with the false equivalency bullshit.
In short, there aren’t multiple morally equivalent sides here. There’s one side — white supremacists — that has long oppressed all other groups of people. Their protests aim to ensure that oppression continues, even if it means using violence. The people counterprotesting, on the other hand, are trying to end that oppression.
So while it’s true that both sides participated in the brawls seen throughout the protests, one side — in a country that supposedly values equality — has the much stronger case by actively working against the hate, bigotry, and violence that the white supremacist side is actively trying to perpetuate.
But Trump won’t acknowledge any of that. Asked to clarify his remarks, a White House official said, “The President was condemning hatred, bigotry and violence from all sources and all sides. There was violence between protesters and counter protesters today.” Trump is deliberately not calling out the white supremacists who led to the unrest in Charlottesville
(* due to their car plates being traced back to someone who had supported Sanders, but it was later found that the car now belonged to someone else
100% you made this entire scenario up or you got it from one of the right-wing echo-chamber sites your regularly cite. This was not credible information- it just fit your narrative.
But then you go with the false equivalency bullshit.
It isn't "false equivalence", Antifa is a dangerous terror group that will go to any length to silence who they hate, "by any means necessary", and I don't care what the sources you prefer think. I can fill up a page with misguided, stupid white people who were injured, blood pouring out of scalps and everywhere else, they're all over Twitter, but I won't give them the satisfaction. Same goes for Right-wing sources showing nothing but the carnage produced by Antifa. Get your head out of the sand.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
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Aug 15, 2017, 04:17 PM
Anyway, since you're saying I "attributed motives" when I didn't, are you going to post a retraction of that accusation?
What? You clearly assumed the motives of the driver, you even repeated that in this post:
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
People can do crazy shit when in a bad situation, like hit the gas when they meant to hit the brake, it's common. I figured it had been a terrible accident.
You assumed the motives were innocent, but you still assumed the motives.
With the event still fresh, many conflicting stories out there, and no solid facts, you decided to assert in two separate posts scenarios that were completely 100% incorrect, but happen to line up with your own biases.
100% you made this entire scenario up or you got it from one of the right-wing echo-chamber sites your regularly cite. This was not credible information- it just fit your narrative.
Twitter and the Reddit front page were throwing theories around at the speed of sound, it was actually on trending. Grow up, FFS.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
You assumed the motives were innocent, but you still assumed the motives.
That's pitiful. Yes, I assumed innocence, that it was an accident, but that's not what you assumed about me. Ready to apologize yet?
With the event still fresh, many conflicting stories out there, and no solid facts, you decided to assert in two separate posts scenarios that were completely 100% incorrect, but happen to line up with your own biases.
Because they were the loudest theories at the time, however I plainly qualified them, because they were theories.
Is this a witch hunt yet? The Left has been shown to have nasty, violent elements in it that are as bad as anything on the Right, so now you're going to divert by attacking me and creating a spectacle, derailing the thread? That really makes things better, doesn't it? Well, c'mon then, let's see how you guys usually operate in these situations.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
And as I figured he would Trump has doubled-down on his initial foolishness ...
President Trump blamed "both sides" for the violence in Charlottesville, echoing a similar thing he said on Saturday, for which he was swiftly criticized.
"There are two sides to a story," Trump said, adding that there were "a lot of bad people in the other group too," referring to the counterprotesters.
He added that there were also "good people" on both sides, including those marching in the white nationalism rally.
I want say there's a pattern where Trump is told he needs to do something by staff, does it and then lashes out angrily about it some time afterwards, revealing how much he didn't want to do it, undermining the entire charade.
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Aug 15, 2017, 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
That's pitiful. Yes, I assumed innocence, that it was an accident, but that's not what you assumed about me. Ready to apologize yet?
Apologize for what? Your attempt to assert theories that match your biases, theories that have turned out to be completely false?
The Left has been shown to have nasty, violent elements in it that are as bad as anything on the Right,
150+ years of the KKK is the same as four years of BLM?
I think one issue here is that people on the left have been trying to point out the elements of white nationalism, Nazism, the KKK, and fascism evident in this administration for long enough that those on the right have been conditioned to reject those labels as hyperbolic. Except these are literally Nazis, white nationalists, and KKK members out here thanking the president for his support, then chanting the n-word and shouting "Jews will not replace us."
I want say there's a pattern where Trump is told he needs to do something by staff, does it and then lashes out angrily about it some time afterwards, revealing how much he didn't want to do it, undermining the entire charade.
Exactly! You see the thing about racist white people is that they are in abject denial about their racism. Even the ones participating in a nighttime march carrying torches in the south shouting racist and Nazi slogans. The issue is never their ideology and behavior. To them the "real racists" are those who call them out on this basis. It's this same sort of stupidity that leads to people trying to draw some sort of moral equivalence between the Black Lives Matter movement ... which is a response to decades of police brutality against African-Americans ... and the alt-right/ KKK / Neo-Nazis which quite literally advocate white supremacy. Trump is obviously sympathetic to the worldview of those who embrace "white racial grievance". And that's being "charitable". His insistence on this "many sides" narrative only lends support to such foolishness.
Assuming that I was attempting to misinform anyone, and assuming that I was pushing an agenda.
150+ years of the KKK is the same as four years of BLM?
Other iterations of the "black liberation movement" have been around for decades, and grown, while the KKK is a joke. Unfortunately other new white supremacy groups are large and dangerous, but the KKK? Not so much. They're just well known due to Hollywood.
I think one issue here is that people on the left have been trying to point out the elements of white nationalism, Nazism, the KKK, and fascism evident in this administration for long enough that those on the right have been conditioned to reject those labels as hyperbolic. Except these are literally Nazis, white nationalists, and KKK members out here thanking the president for his support, then chanting the n-word and shouting "Jews will not replace us."
They do thank Trump, because he's white and claiming they have support is the only real political tool they have. Look at it this way, the only reason they got their permit in the first place was because the ACLU went to bat for them and filed a federal injunction on their behalf. The BLM/Antifa side is much more accepted politically and have a MSM-supported platform. Listen to this young BLM supporter who was at Charlottesville: https://twitter.com/nontolerantman/s...02730737041409 I'm willing to bet they didn't interview anyone from the alt-Right to get their perspective.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
REPORTER: They have called on you to defend your national security adviser H.R. McMaster against these attacks.
TRUMP: I did that before. Senator McCain? Senator McCain. You mean the one that voted against Obamacare? Who is Senator McCain? You mean senator McCain who voted against us getting good health care?
REPORTER: Senator McCain said that the alt-right is behind these attacks, and he linked that same group to those that perpetrated the attack in Charlottesville.
TRUMP: Well, I don't know. I can't tell you. I'm sure Senator McCain must know what he is talking about, but when you say the alt-right, define alt-right to me. You define it. Go ahead. Define it for me, come on, let's go.
REPORTER: Senator McCain defined them as the same group.
TRUMP: Okay, what about the alt-left that came charging at us – excuse me – what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt right? Do they have any semblance of guilt?
REPORTERS YELL INDISTINCTLY
TRUMP: What about this? What about the fact that they came charging – they came charging with clubs in their hands swinging clubs? Do they have any problem? I think they do.
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Aug 15, 2017, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Assuming that I was attempting to misinform anyone, and assuming that I was pushing an agenda.
You're always pushing an agenda.
They do thank Trump, because he's white and claiming they have support is the only real political tool they have.
Like I said. Show me what Trump's statements would look like if he didn't support them. And of which previous presidents have these white nationalists and Nazis felt such support?
Look at it this way, the only reason they got their permit in the first place was because the ACLU went to bat for them and filed a federal injunction on their behalf.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the city wanted to move the rally to a larger space to cut down on a high density of riled up people in very small, congested spaces. Because if that happened, surely violence would break out. Maybe someone would get hit by a car. Were they explicitly trying to cancel the rally? You're welcome to cite sources.
Like I said. Show me what Trump's statements would look like if he didn't support them. And of which previous presidents have these white nationalists and Nazis felt such support?
No idea, since he doesn't.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the city wanted to move the rally to a larger space to cut down on a high density of riled up people in very small, congested spaces. Because if that happened, surely violence would break out. Maybe someone would get hit by a car. Were they explicitly trying to cancel the rally? You're welcome to cite sources.
You're wrong, they wanted to move it away from the statue they were there to march about in the first place.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Because they were the loudest theories at the time, however I plainly qualified them, because they were theories.
Funny, I couldn't find anywhere saying the driver was a lefty/antifa when you did, even among the usual RW echo chamber suspects.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
[B]Is this a witch hunt yet? The Left has been shown to have nasty, violent elements in it that are as bad as anything on the Right,
These bad elements on the left, even if they did act as bad as the right, exist solely as a necessary reaction to the right. They'll never be as bad because its the right's fault they exist in the first place. This is the same argument you like to use so much, except its right at the root of things so we actually know who's genuinely to blame.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
These guys look like frat dorks from Kappa Kappa Kappa.
You joke, but one of the most frightening things for me is how homogenous those guys were when it comes to age. This is a new generation of white supremacists with what looks like 40-50 good years worth of hate left to inflict us with. That proposition terrifies and angers me.
TRUMP: Okay, what about the alt-left that came charging at us – excuse me – what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt right? Do they have any semblance of guilt?
This is the both sides shit I'm talking about. When prompted to condemn the alt-right he came charging to their defense. And the sad part is, he may have played contrarian just because McCain got name dropped.
Someone on twitter said it best: 'As president, disavowing Nazis is the biggest gimme there is.' Trump keeps fumbling this.
You joke, but one of the most frightening things for me is how homogenous those guys were when it comes to age. This is a new generation of white supremacists with what looks like 40-50 good years worth of hate left to inflict us with. That proposition terrifies and angers me.
A good point, but I still find it hard to take them seriously versus methed-up bikers with Iron Cross tattoos.
Part of the reason is I can't shake the feeling internet enabled edgelordism fits in somewhere, the extent of which will determine how committed they are to their philosophy. If enough of them are actually committed, then yes, it's something to be frightened of.
That said, I'll still never understand Nazis who go, "you know what part of Nazism we need to reject? Hugo Boss."
It's not incompetence. When Trump cares he gives his thoughts swiftly, loudly, and repeatedly. When it come to the alt-right and the like, none of those apply.
I see him as far more spontaneous than that. His ego is a bit bigger than his brain, to the point that his behavior suggests a compulsive emotional response (the one you're describing). What you're describing is how he reacts to personal slights, real or imagined. Lacking that personal slight is to lack the compulsive emotional Trump. Look at how he reacted to the Merck exec leaving - completely tone-deaf juxtaposed against his measured statements about Charlotte.
That's why his statements were sorta drowned out - that was a Trump who planned to say something as opposed to the one you describe who just can't freaking help himself.
Groups which helped Trump get elected: the alt-right, and Russia.
Groups over which Trump consistently gives us head-scratchers: the alt-right, and Russia.
With a normal politician, these maneuvers would be seen as forward-looking. Do this to win the next election. With Trump I think he looks rearward. Despite claims to the contrary, in general, if you do good by Trump, he'll do good by you.
I see him as far more spontaneous than that. His ego is a bit bigger than his brain, to the point that his behavior suggests a compulsive emotional response (the one you're describing). What you're describing is how he reacts to personal slights, real or imagined.
That'd be a nice explanation, if he wasn't also quick to call out what he thinks is muslim terrorism. Like, before we're sure quick. When it comes to white terrorism – crickets.
Originally Posted by subego
With a normal politician, these maneuvers would be seen as forward-looking. Do this to win the next election. With Trump I think he looks rearward. Despite claims to the contrary, in general, if you do good by Trump, he'll do good by you.
Same with Flynn. Of course, this goes back to the level of his narcissism. His first concern is how it relates to him. If he likes you, he's ok with anything (Hence, his attitude towards grabbing them by the pussy).
Necessary? The necessary reaction to the right is criminal assault?
And on top of it, the "it's their fault I'm a criminal asshole" defense?
Wat
Yep. "They're people with bad ideas, let's go attack them and show them we can have bad ideas too!"
"It's not my fault, a nazi made me do it." Wonderful, enjoy your time in jail with the nazis.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
It isn't "false equivalence", Antifa is a dangerous terror group that will go to any length to silence who they hate, "by any means necessary", and I don't care what the sources you prefer think. I can fill up a page with misguided, stupid white people who were injured, blood pouring out of scalps and everywhere else, they're all over Twitter, but I won't give them the satisfaction. Same goes for Right-wing sources showing nothing but the carnage produced by Antifa. Get your head out of the sand.
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