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Severed Hand of Skywalker · Apr 27, 2005, 11:23 AM

Alright we all know Apple tried to sue MS in the 80's because they copied Mac OS with Windows. Apple lost because they legally allowed MS to copy some interface elements as part of the contract to develop apps (or so is my understanding).

Apple would have wanted to sue MS until recently because they would be scared that MS would pull word off the market, now that Apple is doing so damn well with the iPod and just released Pages (that supports word files) I say Apple should sue them to death.

MS copied everything from the OS to the interface from Quicktime player to iMovie.

Not for the money though, but more that MS cannot make Longhorn look like tiger.

I mean Apple has a billion software patents for a reason but they only seem to use their lawyers to sue Mac fans.

Apple, let loose, sue MS, make them stop this blatant copying.

Eug Wanker · Apr 27, 2005, 11:30 AM

Probably because MS could countersue. Apple has copied quite a few things from MS over the years too.

Plus Apple needs Office to survive. No MS Office ==> Apple is dead, or at least close to it.

KeyLimePi · Apr 27, 2005, 11:32 AM

If I remember correctly, back in the 90s when MS bought a large chunk of Apple stock, Apple agreed to (among other things) drop its long-running lawsuit against them. Maybe there is still a deal withstanding that shields MS from any future litigation.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Apr 27, 2005, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

If I remember correctly, back in the 90s when MS bought a large chunk of Apple stock, Apple agreed to (among other things) drop its long-running lawsuit against them. Maybe there is still a deal withstanding that shields MS from any future litigation.

I think they also had an agreement to share patents.

Eug, you can't be serious about No word and Apple is dead. Almost every Mac user I know never really uses word and could just as happily do it in RTF. With pages it is dirt cheap to support word files.

Agasthya · Apr 27, 2005, 11:42 AM

Because Apple is too busy suing its own users for leaks and other irrelevant things.

gururafiki · Apr 27, 2005, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Apple, let loose, sue MS, make them stop this blatant copying.

If it was only so easy. What exactly should they sue MS for?

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Apr 27, 2005, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by gururafiki

If it was only so easy. What exactly should they sue MS for?

All the patents they hold on interface elements and software.

gururafiki · Apr 27, 2005, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

All the patents they hold on interface elements and software.

There are a lot of those! I think it is a bit too hard for Apple to sue MS for all of the patents when Apple is using some of MS's interface idea's, and because of the patent sharing agreements that the two companies have had in the past. Although, I do think Apple should be compensated for their ideas.

fromthecloud · Apr 27, 2005, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

I think they also had an agreement to share patents.

Eug, you can't be serious about No word and Apple is dead. Almost every Mac user I know never really uses word and could just as happily do it in RTF. With pages it is dirt cheap to support word files.

No, if there is no Office, then Apple is in trouble. You're forgetting about Excel, Powerpoint, and Entrourage. In most business environments, those are necessities.

euphras · Apr 27, 2005, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by SWG:
Eug, you can't be serious about No word and Apple is dead. Almost every Mac user I know never really uses word and could just as happily do it in RTF. With pages it is dirt cheap to support word files.

Ever talked with potential switchers? When it comes to Office/Word processing and you would have to "admit" that there is no MS Office for the Mac, it�s the "No, thanks, i�ll stay PC" turning point.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Apr 27, 2005, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by euphras

Ever talked with potential switchers? When it comes to Office/Word processing and you would have to "admit" that there is no MS Office for the Mac, it�s the "No, thanks, i�ll stay PC" turning point.

Since that has never happened you don't really have anything to back that up do you.

fromthecloud · Apr 27, 2005, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Since that has never happened you don't really have anything to back that up do you.

I turned several people into switchers when they found out that they could get Office for the Mac. It was the only thing stopping them. Without Office, they were going to stay PC users.

Eug Wanker · Apr 27, 2005, 12:51 PM

I work in an institutional environment. The number 1 question asked when I suggest an iBook/PowerBook for their new portable is if it runs Office.

Often times, that's the only question they ask.

In fact, the current Entourage limitations with Exchange servers are already preventing some users from switching. And our lives are built around Word, Excel, and PowerPoint. Luckily, not too many people depend on Access, but the lack of Access on the Mac is a problem too.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Apr 27, 2005, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by fromthecloud

I turned several people into switchers when they found out that they could get Office for the Mac. It was the only thing stopping them. Without Office, they were going to stay PC users.

And now with pages they can spend under $100 instead of $500.

JHromadka · Apr 27, 2005, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

And now with pages they can spend under $100 instead of $500.

You're kidding right? I have Office X and iWork, and barely use Pages because of its poor usability. Not to mention that there is no Excel equivalent.

euphras · Apr 27, 2005, 01:18 PM

And now with pages they can spend under $100 instead of $500.

You have to face it. OFFICE and WORD are brands or even more, they represent word processing and the like. Ask ppl on the street if they can mention a word processing app others than WORD. I`d guess 97 % aren�t able to.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Apr 27, 2005, 01:25 PM

So everyone is 100% sure MS would stop selling word and making money from Mac sales if Apple sued?

Agasthya · Apr 27, 2005, 01:33 PM

Apparently the Microsoft Mac Office division has higher profit margins than the Windows division. I remember reading that a while ago, don't know if it is still true (or ever was..).

Also, Office: Student and Teacher edition is only $150 and when I worked at Apple retail you wouldn't believe how many copies of that software we pushed out the door daily with new computer sales. It is a big selling point.

Lateralus · Apr 27, 2005, 01:39 PM

If Apple would develop a legimate competitor to Office, I don't think the Office scenario would be a problem.

And I'm sure they're more than capable of doing it, and that the only thing keeping them from doing it is a hesitation to piss off Microsoft.

vcutag · Apr 27, 2005, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

So everyone is 100% sure MS would stop selling word and making money from Mac sales if Apple sued?

It'd be kind of na�ve not to be, don't you think?

fromthecloud · Apr 27, 2005, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

And now with pages they can spend under $100 instead of $500.

Put Pages doesn't have Excel (probably the most valuable Office component). I use Excel constantly both at work and school.

gururafiki · Apr 27, 2005, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Lateralus

If Apple would develop a legimate competitor to Office, I don't think the Office scenario would be a problem.

And I'm sure they're more than capable of doing it, and that the only thing keeping them from doing it is a hesitation to piss off Microsoft.

Yes, that would piss off Microsoft. Maybe iWorks is just the beginning though. After a few more years, and increased market-share points, iWork will be an office killer...

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Apr 27, 2005, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by fromthecloud

Put Pages doesn't have Excel (probably the most valuable Office component). I use Excel constantly both at work and school.

Didn't Appleworks have spreadsheets?

TheJoshu · Apr 27, 2005, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

I think they also had an agreement to share patents.

Eug, you can't be serious about No word and Apple is dead. Almost every Mac user I know never really uses word and could just as happily do it in RTF. With pages it is dirt cheap to support word files.

Pages is an awful, unusable product. At least Word works - I use it exclusively.

Moderator · Apr 27, 2005, 02:35 PM

...most people still don't know that Microsoft Word is available for the Mac....surprisingly most people don't even know what Microsoft Office is. They know the apps but not the suite.

Weyland-Yutani · Apr 27, 2005, 02:46 PM

I think Apple can win marketshare without suing MS. The new Apple is about marketing and brand recognition. MS is a blatant copier but they don't have the taste to pull it through in any compelling way. Apple wants to be the Sony of the computer industry. They want to be chosen by consumers because they are called Apple, not because they have so much better or more features than anyone else but because how they implement them and how their brand is recognized by people.

I think it will work

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Apr 27, 2005, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Moderator

...most people still don't know that Microsoft Word is available for the Mac....surprisingly most people don't even know what Microsoft Office is. They know the apps but not the suite.

I was going to say the same, every switcher is totally shocked to learn that they can get office.

sworthy · Apr 27, 2005, 02:56 PM

Pages is great for what it is, but it isn't a Word killer. More importantly it does not perfectly export to word. In fact, I'm using pages for my thesis, and when I sent it to others running Word on a PC, it actually caused Word to crash (I think it had something to do with the table of contents). Even with basic text, I often have to clean up the Word version for simple formatting (though it's very close). I solve the problem by sending pdf's, but then others can't use track changes, which is definitely a deal breaker for those who exchange documents.

As much as an Apple fan as I am (and I'm as much of a fanboy as anyone else here), I wouldn't be able to exclusively own an Apple computer, which would increase the time between my purchases. More normal computer users would just choose compatibility, and not bother with having a mac around, even if they like it a little more otherwise.

alphasubzero949 · Apr 27, 2005, 03:00 PM

Funny, MS claims that Apple is copying them...

Allchin rejects the notion that Microsoft is a Tiger copycat, noting that the company demonstrated some of the virtual folder concepts in its Fall 2003 preview of Longhorn.

"They just might have copied us," Allchin said.

http://news.com.com/In+Apple%2C+Micr...81.html?tag=nl

krove · Apr 27, 2005, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by TheJoshu

Pages is an awful, unusable product. At least Word works - I use it exclusively.

I hate to get off-topic, but I hate these one-liners without so much as a shred of input/evidence to back up such a statement.

I love Pages: I just finished writing my senior thesis in Pages which ended up being about 70 pages long, complete with a Table of Contents, several chapters (automatically added to the TOC), many figures/tables/captions, and footnotes and found it to be the most enjoyable experience ever.

I dread using MS Word to layout anything: all it produces is crap that looks like everything else ever created in that application. Line spacing is invariably messed up with floating elements, typographic control sucks, no proper unicode support. I would argue Word doesn't work all that great.

Sure, there were a few quirks to get used to, but I found them to be very minor compared to the usual crap I have to put up with in MS Word (auto lists, auto correction, auto capitalization � all settings that are difficult to even find and turn off, improper line spacing, jumping figures, no support for transparency in PNG, no support for inline PDF graphics, pseudo Mac OS X interface, defaults for floating text boxes, auto-tabbing, ugh...the list continues.

Pages offers more granular and transparent control of my document from start to finish. I can find any setting for any part of the document in the inspector palette very easily. Some complain that Pages is not a true DTP app, which it is not meant to be. I would argue it is a sophisticated word processing app with easy-to-use layout techniques for embedded graphics, images, photos. If this is not what you need: then do not complain about it not being good enough, etc. because it was never meant for whatever obscure use you had in mind for it!

Being v1.0, though, there is room for improvement: end notes, more templates, better before/after paragraph spacing (current functionality is a bit vague), etc. Despite the need for improvement, Pages offers far great control of a document, IMHO.

Ok, back to the Apple vs. Microsoft legal debate.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Apr 27, 2005, 04:11 PM

Pages may not be as good for just simple text but it SLAUGHTERS word when it comes to a designed layout. Like Quark but it looks nice and is easy to use.

Superchicken · Apr 27, 2005, 04:22 PM

I love Pages, but I think if there is a chance that M$ would drop Office I think Apple has more to loose by loosing Office than they possibly could gain by suing M$. A law suit will in say 5 years get Apple X number of millions, MAYBE even a Billion though I doubt it. In that time with M$ dropping Office Apple will loose tons of potential switchers and even core Mac users because they can no longer work with idiots who refuse to use anything but Word, or people who need Excel. They would loose more market share than would be reasonable for the amount of cash they MIGHT make in a law suit.
I think they're on the right track with simply being the best and continuing to look like the best and most sexy option compared to M$.

Eug Wanker · Apr 27, 2005, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Pages may not be as good for just simple text but it SLAUGHTERS word when it comes to a designed layout. Like Quark but it looks nice and is easy to use.

I find Pages non-intuitive, and slow (in 10.3). And anyways, while designed layout is nice, that's not what institutions are built around for general word processing documents.

Pages needs work, although I can see it being much nicer in '06. It has to have seamless Word file conversion though, both to and from Word.

There is no Excel replacement, but again, I can see an initial one showing up in 2006, with a more mature version in 2007.

Keynote is already very nice. It's missing some of the more high-end features, but as a general presentation program, it's superior to PowerPoint. It's PowerPoint file conversion needs a bit of work though.

ReggieX · Apr 27, 2005, 04:55 PM

One of the more bizarre hallucination I've ever read on here.

jasonsRX7 · Apr 27, 2005, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by euphras

Ever talked with potential switchers? When it comes to Office/Word processing and you would have to "admit" that there is no MS Office for the Mac, it�s the "No, thanks, i�ll stay PC" turning point.

I think you're exactly right. The few people I've switched, and some skeptic friends all asked me the same thing, "but what about Office? I HAVE to be able to run Office." There's no convincing them otherwise. It's really important to be able to *say* that Office is available and compatible on Macs, even if they don't use it.

However, I have imagined how nice it would be for Apple to take OpenOffice and "Applefy" it by getting it looking good and running well in OS X.

klinux · Apr 27, 2005, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

I say Apple should sue them to death.
<snip>
Apple, let loose, sue MS, make them stop this blatant copying.

There are plenty of people suing Microsoft for patent infringment or a number of reasons. Apple is not among those who are suing Microsoft. Perhaps, and maybe just perhaps, people are more intelligent than you have done the analysis and determine there are no valid basis to sue?

willed · Apr 27, 2005, 07:18 PM

This thread is stupid.

And re. MS Office: sure Pages supports Word. But then, so did AppleWorks. But neither of these are MS Word. Pages is more of a page-layout app than a truly powerful word processor as Word is. Apple would lose app support, probably money, and probably the law-suit as well. The only way Apple can succeed is, as Steve has said, if it out-innovates.

Zimphire · Apr 27, 2005, 07:18 PM

Pages is hardly even close to being a decent page layout program.

But Quark can barely be called one either here lately.

gururafiki · Apr 27, 2005, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Pages is hardly even close to being a decent page layout program.

Pages a page layout program?? Excuse me for being to lazy to find out who really said that, but if you think Pages is a page layout program then go back to using a kid computer!

Pages is a word processor program people!

DeathToWindows · Apr 27, 2005, 10:45 PM

Apple will likely not try that again... look and feel suits have failed many times since.