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besson3c · Mar 8, 2006, 01:27 PM

A few years back it was possible to eject your CD-ROM tray on Windows simply by visiting a particular web page that took advantage of this ActiveX IE hook. I don't know if this particular page is still online or if this exploit still exists, but doesn't it creep you out that some anonymous person can have this amount of remote control on your computer?

Yes, ejecting a CD-ROM tray sounds harmless, but a FREAKIN WEBPAGE should not be able to do this, as far as I'm concerned. PERIOD.

strictlyplaid · Mar 8, 2006, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'd like to think my mind is made up based on fundamental facts, but you are welcome to refute them. Your empirical "I've been able to stay safe" does not attack these fundamental facts.

The conversation started out being about how PC users must take extensive measures to avoid serious problems. I think my experience does show that's not true. Not just on my four personal computers, but also in the university computer lab that I manage.

If you want to talk about how Windows has no room for improvement in its default install, you'll have to find someone else to talk with.

Incidentally, Apple could use some improvement on hardware QA. Of six Macs that my friend and I owned, four have had serious hardware problems within two years. The two that didn't were my Mac Plus and my Mac 512ke.

Spliffdaddy · Mar 8, 2006, 01:36 PM

ActiveX is disabled by default in WindowsXP (omg wtf, my CD tray opened!!...so what?). At least in WIndows you can manually open the CD tray. Something Mac users would love to be able to accomplish from time to time. Also, WindowsXP comes with a firewall and automatic updates. Anything that could possibly be an exploit requires the user to confirm that they wish to allow it to run.

Currently, there are nearly no problems with the default setup on WindowsXP.

Welcome to the new Windows. Some of you missed the bus.

And, furthermore, very few Windows users "hate Macs". Probably 99.995% of Windows users spend no time whatsoever even thinking about Macs.

But it's clear to me that a majority of Mac users hate Windows.

strictlyplaid · Mar 8, 2006, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Currently, there are nearly no problems with the default setup on WindowsXP.

Unless "no integrated antivirus software" counts as a problem. It would be nice if they were able to craft an active virus-protection process that was more efficient than the current ones are.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Anything that could possibly be an exploit requires the user to confirm that they wish to allow it to run.

I read SANS' report from time to time, and it seems that there still are ways to remotely execute code without the user's knowledge. I'm not a technical expert, so I'm not 100% sure how they work. I do know that one recent exploit used an old flaw in .WMF graphics files that allowed execution of arbitrary (malicious) code. It's patched now, but when it was out all a user had to do was view a webpage with a bad WMF file and he was screwed. (If no anti-virus software had his back.)

Spliffdaddy · Mar 8, 2006, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

Unless "no integrated antivirus software" counts as a problem. It would be nice if they were able to craft an active virus-protection process that was more efficient than the current ones are.

Maybe I'm just smart, but I haven't had a virus on a Windows machine in at least 5 years. And I never used an anti-virus application.

(unless you count that damned Google toolbar as a virus....my own fault for not reading the fine print on freeware)

strictlyplaid · Mar 8, 2006, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Maybe I'm just smart, but I haven't had a virus on a Windows machine in at least 5 years. And I never used an anti-virus application.

Me neither (on not having a virus) but I'd rather not take the chance. To me, it's like getting a vaccine. The chance that I'm going to get measles is miniscule, but (1) why take the chance? (2) it helps provide "herd immunity" that protects users (like you) who aren't "vaccinated."

besson3c · Mar 8, 2006, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

The conversation started out being about how PC users must take extensive measures to avoid serious problems. I think my experience does show that's not true. Not just on my four personal computers, but also in the university computer lab that I manage.

If you want to talk about how Windows has no room for improvement in its default install, you'll have to find someone else to talk with.

Incidentally, Apple could use some improvement on hardware QA. Of six Macs that my friend and I owned, four have had serious hardware problems within two years. The two that didn't were my Mac Plus and my Mac 512ke.

I can agree with you on the hardware QA stuff based on what I've been reading, but not on the PC stuff. We're disagreeing on different issues though, from the sounds of things. You are disagreeing with the amount of effort needed to secure your computer. I'm disagreeing with the notion that Windows XP is a modern operating system and that these weaknesses are acceptable in today's day and age.

My point of contention is slightly more philosophical, but it can't be ignored. The potential for a user to experience the weaknesses of the Windows security model remains, regardless of how prevalent you think accidents might be.

strictlyplaid · Mar 8, 2006, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I can agree with you on the hardware QA stuff based on what I've been reading

I don't know what changed down in Cupertino, but my freakin' 512ke was a tank. That bad boy lasted... 6 years? It seemed like forever. I bought the Plus with my own money ($100! It was woefully outdated) in middle school, and I think that one lasted me 3 or 4 years. It was used when I bought it!

Maybe computers, being more sophisticated, are just more prone to breakdown now?

besson3c · Mar 8, 2006, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

I don't know what changed down in Cupertino, but my freakin' 512ke was a tank. That bad boy lasted... 6 years? It seemed like forever. I bought the Plus with my own money ($100! It was woefully outdated) in middle school, and I think that one lasted me 3 or 4 years. It was used when I bought it!

Maybe computers, being more sophisticated, are just more prone to breakdown now?

It seems like things always start to suck when commoditization and mass production occurs. I'm sure there were many 512 Macs sold back in the day, but I'm sure there are many more Macs sold nowadays simply because far more people are using computers.

Spliffdaddy · Mar 8, 2006, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I can agree with you on the hardware QA stuff based on what I've been reading, but not on the PC stuff. We're disagreeing on different issues though, from the sounds of things. You are disagreeing with the amount of effort needed to secure your computer. I'm disagreeing with the notion that Windows XP is a modern operating system and that these weaknesses are acceptable in today's day and age.

My point of contention is slightly more philosophical, but it can't be ignored. The potential for a user to experience the weaknesses of the Windows security model remains, regardless of how prevalent you think accidents might be.

Yeah, I agree with you about the potential for WindowsXP being vulnerable. Not every user has the experience necessary to avoid becoming a victim. I'm not sure it's even possible to protect all of the drooling morons out there. Still, XP has come a long way since its initial release. I get far fewer 'service calls' from my friends lately - so they're either getting smarter or the Windows security updates are working. I'm inclined to credit the security updates.

It's a difficult challenge to provide both a secure operating system - and the ability to allow *any* application to execute that the user deems necessary. I install video surveillance systems which allow the client to access that video from any internet connection. Almost none of their computers will allow them to view that video by default because Windows has tightened the security to disallow ActiveX, kill pop-up windows, and deny IP traffic on most ports. I end up having to reduce their security settings in order for the video to be displayed. Not the best idea in the world, but that's life with XP nowadays.

Dr.Michael · 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Currently, there are nearly no problems with the default setup on WindowsXP.

You must have missed something!

I use Windows XP from time to time and have a default installation (no tinkering done). Always (and I mean always) after I have booted, I get the message, that new updates are available. Before I can react, it says there are old and obsolete files on my desktop that I should trash. Before I can react, the msn messenger pops up, etc. pp.

BEFORE I can do what I want to do, I have to close many windows that I did not ask for. If you make the mistake to update, the machine is busy for 20 minutes and slows down to a crawl (Thinkpad, 1.6 GHz PM). After reboot I usually get the message again: There are updates available. Do you want to install them?

Do you want something to laugh? When I am in the library, not connected to the internet, I also get the message "There are updates available. Do you want to install them"?

So don't say windows has no problems! There is a big misunderstanding between microsoft and its users who is going to have the control over the systems.

But back to the topic. Why Windows users hate Macs? I think it is because both sides are unbelievable convinced that they use the greatest system. And no one likes to hear from anyone that he is totally wrong. Unfortunately mac users often spend a lot of their time trashing windows.
And I think there is a tendency ancored in mankind to indentify themselves with majorities and to hate minorities who are too conviced of themselves.

I my view you cannot judge before you have used both systems for a while. So everybody, please ask yourself how much you really know about macs AND windows. I often hear bad remarks about mac os from windows users who have never touched a mac. Only by judging about a user interface that looks silly in their opinion.

I have used both systems for years. Personally I prefer os x for a couple of reasons. I also use linux for some tasks. But if someone else is happy with windows, why not let them use it? Just do your work on the system of your choice. At least the presence of windows and linux give us a choice. And thats good.

Kevin · Mar 9, 2006, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by meelk

no, absolutely not. I'm behind a router, and I browse with firefox. I'm not an idiot who is going to say yes to any popup that might get by the firefox popup blocker. My email is set to read as plain text (as everyones should). I'm not a fool who will run random crap from all over the net without knowing precisely what it is.

All in all, a few VERY simple precautions. I use no virus scanner or adware program on a day to day basis. A couple of times a year I'll scan with something I download then uninstall. I clear cookies when the urge hits me. (if you want to call the occasional naughty cookie evil I suppose I cant retort that, although it would be a bit extreme).
edit: I keep up to date on any MS patches. You can allow the computer to do this itself, I do it manually.

simply put: common sense wins.

My point is, you HAVE to do these things. I do not. That isn't being arrogant. That is just pointing out the facts.

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Seconded.

I have yet to find a spyware scanner that catches it all. Usually, it takes 2 or three combined.

-t

The fact one even HAS to run such things is wrong.

meelk · Mar 9, 2006, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

My point is, you HAVE to do these things. I do not. That isn't being arrogant. That is just pointing out the facts.

The fact one even HAS to run such things is wrong.

Well, one could also say that Microsoft controls the market, Apple does not.
That isn't being arrogant. That is just pointing out the facts.

besson3c · Mar 9, 2006, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by meelk

Well, one could also say that Microsoft controls the market, Apple does not.
That isn't being arrogant. That is just pointing out the facts.

No one is denying this, but how does this relate to this conversation?

besson3c · Mar 9, 2006, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by meelk

Well, one could also say that Microsoft controls the market, Apple does not.
That isn't being arrogant. That is just pointing out the facts.

No one is denying this, but how does this relate to this conversation?

Kevin · Mar 9, 2006, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by meelk

Well, one could also say that Microsoft controls the market, Apple does not.
That isn't being arrogant. That is just pointing out the facts.

No, that isn't true either. MS doesn't CONTROL it, or it would be able to tell Apple what to do.

MS however has more MARKET SHARE. That is indeed true. But irrelevent.

Actually from were I stand it looks like Apple dictates the market, and MS follows.

strictlyplaid · Mar 9, 2006, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

MS however has more MARKET SHARE. That is indeed true. But irrelevent.

Not at all. Apple's negligible market share largely accounts for its lack of security problems.

Security is the #1 thing (along with aesthetics) that PC-haters harp on.

besson3c · Mar 9, 2006, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

Not at all. Apple's negligible market share largely accounts for its lack of security problems.

Security is the #1 thing (along with aesthetics) that PC-haters harp on.

Not if you are interested in video, some sciences, Unix (a pretty big population there), graphic design, journalism, etc. Some estimates say that nearly 30% of this campus is Mac-based.

Surely this population amounts to a pretty significant chunk of Apple's overall marketshare too.

strictlyplaid · Mar 9, 2006, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Not if you are interested in video, some sciences, Unix (a pretty big population there), graphic design, journalism, etc. Some estimates say that nearly 30% of this campus is Mac-based.

Surely this population amounts to a pretty significant chunk of Apple's overall marketshare too.

True dat.

A lot of Political Methodologists are into Macintoshes now. When I ask them why, they always talk about how they like UNIX, mostly for security reasons and because they've used some *NIX flavor for years, plus the aesthetics thing.

besson3c · Mar 9, 2006, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

True dat.

I forgot to add music to the mix, the whole iLife crowd (don't know how big this is), and the iPod halo crowd, if such a thing exists.

A lot of big players live and swear by Apple's Logic. It was used for a lot of big name movies, and by performers like Herbie Hancock.

A lot of musicians within the jazz department here are also having fun with Garageband creating vamps to solo over and stuff.