[Big Mac]

Well, it's just about over folks, completely over. The last shreds of our national liberty are going up in smoke. The scourge of Progressivism is landing the last killing blows against our Republic. A grand new entitlement is being rammed down our throats in spite of the obvious, undeniable fact that the previous entitlements are killing us fast enough anyway. But it's not just the financial aspect that's so disturbing. We're seeing the federal government institute progressively more command and control authority over all facets of our lives. We may as well just go back to the Crown at this point. Hugo Chavez must be very proud of the POTUS and the Socialist Democratic Party of America today.

It's over, Johnny. This is how liberty dies.

[AKcrab]

Very funny!

[Big Mac]

I'm glad you're amused.

[stevesnj]

YES!!! Good for you President Obama!! American's can now sleep knowing they have a chance to get the healthcare they need without going bankrupt, the need to sell their house, or move to another country with socialized healthcare. I am happy the suffering may end of those Americans without healthcare and may have their lives saved by this brave move. America is now part of the rest of the world that helps their countrymen and women live a healthier life. Now what is wrong with that?

[Big Mac]

And if the country goes bankrupt in short order I'm sure you'll be okay with that.

I suppose liberty lasted for as long as one could have hoped. It couldn't have lasted much longer than it did given that the ignorant masses gained the power to vote themselves benefits from the Treasury. The war was already over when they got to trade their liberty away for handouts from Uncle Sam.

We'll see what happens when the benefit well runs dry and the soft tyranny people put up with today turns harsh.

[Oneota]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

YES!!! Good for you President Obama!! American's can now sleep knowing they have a chance to get the healthcare they need without going bankrupt, the need to sell their house, or move to another country with socialized healthcare. I am happy the suffering may end of those Americans without healthcare and may have their lives saved by this brave move. America is now part of the rest of the world that helps their countrymen and women live a healthier life. Now what is wrong with that?

[Oneota]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

And if the country goes bankrupt in short order I'm sure you'll be okay with that.

Oh, Puh-leeze. The bill's expected to cost, what, $948 billion over 10 years? Don't we spend that amount every year on the two wars we've got going on (one of which was a total waste of lives, money, and international goodwill)?

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

And if the country goes bankrupt in short order I'm sure you'll be okay with that.

I suppose liberty lasted for as long as one could have hoped. It couldn't have lasted all that long given that the ignorant masses gained the power to vote themselves benefits from the Treasury. They get to trade their liberty away.

I thought it was 'Life Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'? Hmm people will be happy they will live and maybe not die because they can, oh let's say get 3 chemo treatments a week not 1 a month? hmm I guess you don't want happiness for American's? Well to me having a family member live because they got their cancer treatment is PRICELESS to me. Some just see the money.

But I'm just glad Rush Limbaugh will be moving to costa Rica..!!! woo hoo!!

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Well, it's just about over folks, completely over. The last shreds of our national liberty are going up in smoke. The scourge of Progressivism is landing the last killing blows against our Republic. A grand new entitlement is being rammed down our throats in spite of the obvious, undeniable fact that the previous entitlements are killing us fast enough anyway. But it's not just the financial aspect that's so disturbing. We're seeing the federal government institute progressively more command and control authority over all facets of our lives. We may as well just go back to the Crown at this point. Hugo Chavez must be very proud of the POTUS and the Socialist Democratic Party of America today.
It's over, Johnny. This is how liberty dies.

While I don't think it's entirely over yet (even after tonight), this is a disappointment to be sure. I only hope the majority, collective resolve can withstand the next few months. Since very little of this legislation has any immediate impact, it might be easy to forget what happened here over the distraction of mob wars on facebook.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

I thought it was 'Life Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'? Hmm people will be happy they will live and maybe not die because they can, oh let's say get 3 chemo treatments a week not 1 a month? hmm I guess you don't want happiness for American's? Well to me having a family member live because they got their cancer treatment is PRICELESS to me. Some just see the money.

Then why don't you and all those who believe like you do leave this cruel country and go find yourself in a Socialist paradise where you'll get the Socialized medicine you want and deserve? (I was going to call you the names you deserve to be called, but I'll refrain because it's just not worth it. Your mentality is what is critically wrong with - indeed what is killing - this once great country.)

Originally Posted by Oneota 

Oh, Puh-leeze. The bill's expected to cost, what, $948 billion over 10 years? Don't we spend that amount every year on the two wars we've got going on (one of which was a total waste of lives, money, and international goodwill)?

I'm glad you're so callous toward the prospect of all the tax increases required to pay for this monstrosity, and besides that, if you think the bill is going to come in at or below budget projections you're dreaming a truly unrealistic dream.

[Oneota]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'm glad you're so callous toward the prospect of all the tax increases required to pay for this monstrosity, and besides that, if you think the bill is going to come in at or below budget projections you're dreaming a truly unrealistic dream.

As long as my premiums go down by an amount equal to or greater than the tax increases, I don't mind. I'd just assume not have insurance companies getting my money. At least I have some say in who runs the federal government, so if I don't like what they're doing with the money, I can try to change things. I have no control over who runs the insurance companies or what they do with all the money they get from me every month.

[Oneota]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

But I'm just glad Rush Limbaugh will be moving to costa Rica..!!! woo hoo!!

Really?!? That's the greatest thing I've read in a long time. You just made my month! Hell, maybe my year!

[Oneota]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Then why don't you and all those who believe like you do leave this cruel country and go find yourself in a Socialist paradise where you'll get the Socialized medicine you want and deserve? (I was going to call you the names you deserve to be called, but I'll refrain because it's just not worth it. Your mentality is what is critically wrong with - indeed what is killing - this once great country.)

Why leave this great country, when we can simply vote for leadership with the wherewithal to change the things we see wrong for the better?

Oh wait...we did.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Oneota 

As long as my premiums go down by an amount equal to or greater than the tax increases, I don't mind.

You think your premiums are going down?

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Then why don't you and all those who believe like you do leave this cruel country and go find yourself in a Socialist paradise where you'll get the Socialized medicine you want and deserve? (I was going to call you the names you deserve to be called, but I'll refrain because it's just not worth it. Your mentality is what is critically wrong with - indeed what is killing - this once great country.)

Haha your just upset a Democrat is doing what Republicans couldn't do. Please move to Costa Rica with Rush, since Costa Rica is almost the last country in the world without government health care I'm sure you will be glad to pay whatever the insurance companies want to charge you and deny you a Tylenol unless you get a referral. And you can call me whatever you want. You and your Republican friends calling Senators 'NI@@er', and 'Fag@t' is all the clarification of your mentality we need. You just can't stand that the 'Ni@@er' is president. Typical Republican bigot.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Oneota 

Why leave this great country, when we can simply vote for leadership with the wherewithal to change the things we see wrong for the better?

Oh wait...we did.

Seems Democracy only counts when the Republican's win.

[ebuddy]

How did I miss the "3 chemo treatments a week" provision in the Senate health care bill?

[Big Mac]

Look at the sheer stupidity we're dealing with, ebuddy. Amazing.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Look at the sheer stupidity we're dealing with, ebuddy. Amazing.

Hmm you didn't deny any part of my last post.

[Oneota]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Look at the sheer stupidity we're dealing with, ebuddy. Amazing.

Can you have a debate on an issue without resorting to calling the people you're debating names?

"You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. [...]"

Yes, it's a movie quote. But the sentiment is germane to the current discussion, I believe.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

How did I miss the "3 chemo treatments a week" provision in the Senate health care bill?

wow reality, a part of American's lives (a fellow employee of mine) can actually get more chemo since she was told her breast cancer was 'Pre-Existing Condition' and she has mortgaged her house to pay for the one chemo treatment a month. I guess some want to see her dead so they can save some money.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Oneota 

Can you have a debate on an issue without resorting to calling the people you're debating names?

If the name fits, may as well use it.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

If the name fits, may as well use it.

See what we are dealing with Oneota?

[Oneota]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

If the name fits, may as well use it.

People are not stupid merely by virtue of having a differing opinion from you.

[Big Mac]

I didn't say that was my criteria. Stupidity is expecting your health insurance premiums to go down as a result of this takeover. Stupidity is expecting the new entitlement created to come in at or under CBO projections. Stupidity is heralding in and championing a major expansion of the already gigantic federal government, supporting the nearly pervasive intrusiveness into every facet of daily life of free citizens that this takeover brings. That's stupid.

And I'll tell you something else: Supporting the passage of legislation that explicitly violates in a very fundamental way the Constitution of the United States is treason. Not that you care, but it is.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

And I'll tell you something else: Supporting the passage of legislation that explicitly violates in a very fundamental way the Constitution of the United States is treason. Not that you care, but it is.

Now the thread is about the Patriot Act?

[hyteckit]

Big Mac should love the new Health Care reform bill.

Why?

Cause it'll reduce the deficit by $143 billion over the first ten years.


Bush Medicare Bill - Increase Deficit by $1.2 Trillion or $1,200 Billion
Obama Heath Care Bill - Decrease Deficit by $143 Billion

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Well, it's just about over folks, completely over. The last shreds of our national liberty are going up in smoke. The scourge of Progressivism is landing the last killing blows against our Republic. A grand new entitlement is being rammed down our throats in spite of the obvious, undeniable fact that the previous entitlements are killing us fast enough anyway. But it's not just the financial aspect that's so disturbing. We're seeing the federal government institute progressively more command and control authority over all facets of our lives. We may as well just go back to the Crown at this point. Hugo Chavez must be very proud of the POTUS and the Socialist Democratic Party of America today.

It's over, Johnny. This is how liberty dies.

It's interesting to note which liberties you get the most upset over losing. You're OK with a move toward a police state, but you get upset with a move toward a socialist state. I would imagine that someone *truly* concerned about losing liberties would be upset with a move in *either* direction.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Then why don't you and all those who believe like you do leave this cruel country and go find yourself in a Socialist paradise where you'll get the Socialized medicine you want and deserve?

You'd better be careful. That was the line used when liberals whined about changes being made by Bush ( "if you don't like it, leave" ). Someone might suggest that *you* leave that cruel country and go find yourself a Capitalist paradise.

[hyteckit]

I find it funny that Republicans who have been b*tching about Medicare and entitlements, are now championing Medicare and complaining about the Obama Health Care bill reducing Medicare benefits.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

We'll see what happens when the benefit well runs dry and the soft tyranny people put up with today turns harsh.

Good points.

The question is "Who pays for all of this?" Somebody has to pay. Pelosi just said that we'd have insurance for 32MM more Americans -- who pays for that? I know -- I do, by losing what benefits I have now, that I've worked many years to get. My kids have LESS healthcare so that others can have more.

Who picks who gets what? Government. Want healthcare -- better fill out your Census form correctly, and have the "right" answers. Better vote how we say, or no healthcare for you. Already works that way with govt. jobs, and I can't see it being any different with healthcare.

What happens when those of us who actually work to support this country stop doing so? At what point will those who contribute more than they consume just give up and say "no thanks"? At no point will all of those new government jobs contribute anything beyond they consume, ever. So what happens when people stop playing?

I've seen plenty of organizations collapse from the loss of a few key people. It's not pretty. When the producers turn the switch off (many already have) it's going to be nasty.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I didn't say that was my criteria. Stupidity is expecting your health insurance premiums to go down as a result of this takeover. Stupidity is expecting the new entitlement created to come in at or under CBO projections. Stupidity is heralding in and championing a major expansion of the already gigantic federal government, supporting the nearly pervasive intrusiveness into every facet of daily life of free citizens that this takeover brings. That's stupid.

Yep, those things are pretty stupid. Either that, or a blatant disregard of all of this country's history and the fundamentals of human expectations and incentives.

[stevesnj]

It's official, a healthier America here we come! Rush Limbaugh, need a ride to the airport? hahahahahahahahahaha

the people have spoken, Healthcare for EVERYONE! It is now a right NOT a privilege.

God Bless America, and God Bless Barack Obama!!!!

[Snow-i]

RIP economic stability.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

It's official, a healthier America here we come! Rush Limbaugh, need a ride to the airport? hahahahahahahahahaha

the people have spoken, Healthcare for EVERYONE! It is now a right NOT a privilege.

God Bless America, and God Bless Barack Obama!!!!

Its official.

The system has failed to represent the will of the people.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

RIP economic stability.

ha that's been long gone since the Iraq war

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Its official.

The system has failed to represent the will of the people.

The will is for this healthcare system. The bill was passed...did you not see it on TV? the will of the people have spoken. Grow up! This will help people.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Its official.

The system has failed to represent the will of the people.

*That's* been official ever since the system began. You only fail to notice when it represents *your* will but not others.

[Snow-i]

The will is unarguably against the passage of this bill.


The will of the government =/ the will of the people.

From yesterday:
Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports


The majority of Americans oppose this bill. The system has failed.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

*That's* been official ever since the system began. You only fail to notice when it represents *your* will but not others.

Really? Can you provide any sort evidence to back your claim up that i've ever been in favor of legislation that is opposed by the majority of the population, and pushed for it regardless?

I don't think you can, because you just made that up.

[besson3c]

I think the sheer stupidity is in the ridiculous and Glenn Beckish rhetoric about American liberty being completely annihilated, but oh well...

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

The will is unarguably against the passage of this bill.


The will of the government =/ the will of the people.

From yesterday:
Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports


The majority of Americans oppose this bill. The system has failed.

again THE BILL HAS PASSED!! that means the will of the people have spoken, it would not of passed if americans were totally against it. The system has failed for you! but for me this is what I wanted, and in a republic that uses a democratic system the YAY outweighed the NAY. Our system is working fine, America's system of deciding is still working.

[Snow-i]

On the other hand, it is entirely possible that the supreme court will strike this unconstitutional abomination down for what it really is.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

On the other hand, it is entirely possible that the supreme court will strike this unconstitutional abomination down for what it really is.

Good for the people? The Supreme Court will never see this.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Really? Can you provide any sort evidence to back your claim up that i've ever been in favor of legislation that is opposed by the majority of the population, and pushed for it regardless?

I don't think you can, because you just made that up.

Many people would say that many of the decisions made by the prior administration failed to represent the will of the people.
How do you *know* that the system failed to represent the will of the people?

[besson3c]

I think the only remaining question is what sort of flavor of cat food we are going to be made into now that all of our liberties have been completely annihilated.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

again THE BILL HAS PASSED!! that means the will of the people have spoken, it would not of passed if americans were totally against it. The system has failed for you! but for me this is what I wanted, and in a republic that uses a democratic system the YAY outweighed the NAY. Our system is working fine, America's system of deciding is still working.

the will of the people IS NOT backroom sweetheart deals and bribes. The will of the people, as clearly documented, is against this. The system has failed for the majority of americans (at least 54% actually vs the 41% who are in favor.) The system has FAILED for the American people.

The will of the people is smarter than our "representatives" give us credit for. The will of the people on the issue of healthcare is against this bill, despite however you feel about it.


Meanwhile, while you celebrate, more Americans lose their jobs. Oh well, at least they have taxe...err healthcare!

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Many people would say that many of the decisions made by the prior administration failed to represent the will of the people.
How do you *know* that the system failed to represent the will of the people?

Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

the will of the people IS NOT backroom sweetheart deals and bribes. The will of the people, as clearly documented, is against this. The system has failed for the majority of americans (at least 54% actually vs the 41% who are in favor.) The system has FAILED for the American people.

The will of the people is smarter than our "representatives" give us credit for. The will of the people on the issue of healthcare is against this bill, despite however you feel about it.


Meanwhile, while you celebrate, more Americans lose their jobs. Oh well, at least they have taxe...err healthcare!

Wow so the 'popular' vote should outweigh everything else?

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

Wow so the 'popular' vote should outweigh everything else?

Isn't that the true definition of democracy?

You think the will of the minority should be represented in our republic?