[philzilla]

A German mum has cut her own baby's head off with a breadknife, police have said.

The woman is alleged to have then rung up her partner and confessed that she'd hacked off the 10-month-old baby's head.

The dead baby was found in a cot.

Police in Nuremberg said they found the 31-year-old in a confused and distressed state.

The woman's two other children, a boy of four and a girl of two, have been placed into the care of the city's social services.

She is in custody on suspicion of murder.

that's one of the craziest things i've read all week.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...741321,00.html

[macnnhelpme]

Every time you think you've heard it all...

We have a 13-month old, and I can't think of who in either their right or even wrong minds would want to do something so terrible to their own child. If anyone ever came CLOSE to hurting my son, they would be the one losing a head!

[iWrite]

She is in custody on suspicion of murder.

SUSPICION of murder?

If somebody did that to my child they'd better hope that the cops locked me up before I could get to them because I'd kill the person -- no question about it.

I'd find a way to do it, too, whether it was paying someone else or doing it myself, cozying up to the mafia, anything.

I hear about people who do things like that.

Here's another recent, similar, story.

[suprz]

just leave me alone in a room with her and a breadknife.......justice would be done

[mitchell_pgh]

I'm not defending her, but there are some crazy people out there. Females freak out after having a baby. Some deal, others freak out and kill their kids. Unfortunately, it's nothing new.

The bread-knife is a new twist...

[iWrite]

I'm sorry, we had a child kidnapped once by a babysitter. She took him to California and wanted us to pay her to get him back. This was a woman who was a licensed registered nurse and had good references and credentials.

We got him back (he was three years old) about 10 days later.

She went to court and was charged with several felonies, but guess what? She had a "psychiatric history" that was used as her defense in court. She got out of jail 18 months later with probation tacked on.

She showed up at my house about two years after the event, after she was released from jail, supposedly to "apologize." When I opened the door and saw her there I tried to shut the door but she jammed the door open and started yelling, "I'm trying to talk to you! I'm trying to tell you I'm sorry!" Then, because I wouldn't listen, she grabbed my shirt and started choking me.

Well, I punched her in the face and knocked out her teeth, broke her jaw, and her nose and called 911 and they hauled her off.

Her defense the second time around? "Psychiatric relapse."

She went to a mental hospital for 6 months and is now out wandering around, probably staking out the next family to con and child to kidnap. I, on the other hand, had to sell my house and move away so that she would never bother me or my family again. Who ultimately paid the price for this "mental" problem?

My family.

I, on the other hand, went into a deep depression after this incident. I didn't know that the babysitter had the baby until three days later. I thought that he was kidnapped by a psycho-pervert, being raped and killed. Imagine the kind of mental anguish that we went through. I was so depressed when it happened that I was in the hospital for three days and after we got him back I still took medication for two years.

So, sorry, but the "mental illness" defense doesn't wash with me because now we had to endure a great deal of anguish as the victims, including moving to a guarded community and our specific neighborhood (six homes) within the gated community is also gated and there is a 24-hour guard station only 100 feet away. We also have premium alarms in our home and our cars, including lo-jack. I still sometimes think she's following me or has discovered where we are. That's why I understand when movie stars claim that they need bodyguards. There are psychos out there.

"Mental illness" doesn't wash with me.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by suprz:
just leave me alone in a room with her and a breadknife.......justice would be done

You're mistaken revenge for justice.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by iWrite:
"Mental illness" doesn't wash with me.

Again, I'm not defending these nut jobs... I feel horrible that you basically had to move to get away from this crazy person. (Side Note: Did she really have good references??? I'm always amazed that these people do...)

The incident that you described doesn't really coincide with postpartum mood disorder. I would have had more sympathy for the person in your story if she had taken her own baby... but in your story, she took your baby (not a baby that she had just had)... Totally different thing... She should have been locked up for at least 5 years, and the second she got out and went back, she should have spend another 5+ years behind bars or in an institution.

What that lady did to you was kidnapping... kidnapping is only second to killing in my book.

Link

[iWrite]

Thanks for the sympathy -- it's appreciated.

I forgot to mention that we had just had a baby and our family was dealing with a lot of changes and moodiness (which is why we hired a licensed R.N. in the first place) and having the toddler kidnapped exacerbated the depression greatly.

Incidentally, she came from a accredited nursing agency with a good local history!

We also checked her references in addition to the nursing agency recommending her. Only thing is? People don't have the "right" to know if someone has emotional or mental issues in this country -- even if that person is supposedly a healthcare worker or a person in charge of other people's lives.

We treated her VERY well: $18.20 an hour, 8 hours a day, 1.5 hours off for lunch, and basically all she did was sit around and play with the toddler and hang out in pleasant surroundings. We treated her like a member of the family and even fixed her car for her at our expense ($1800 transmission job). All she did was victimize us. Also, when they caught her, she had a box of my checks (to write checks) in her car so presumably she was going to commit fraud and forgery as well.

Yes, I believe in mental and emotional illness, but the truth is that if a person can call the police after the fact and tell them a crime has been committed then they could call the police ahead of time and say, "I'm going to commit a crime." Did you read the link that I posted about the professor who slit her baby's throat and then called the police?

She was "sane" enough to dial and tell someone that she had killed her baby -- she could have called first.

[andi*pandi]

(I also don't see any correlation between iwrite's horrible ordeal and this woman killing her own kid. Psychiatric defenses are frequently used as get out of jail free cards, but post-partum is a real condition. )

I get sad when every day there is a story on the top 5 of the netscape home page that deals with a kids death--the father who shot his kids and set the house on fire, the daycare who left the kid in the car, the father who left the kid in the car... today it was a kid's aunt who abused and starved a kid to death.

There is just no accounting for some people and their insanity. It makes me fear for my kid, and every kid, and chokes me up every time I see a story like this.

[suprz]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
You're mistaken revenge for justice.

you call it what you will.............to me it's justice. i would simply let the punishment fit the crime

[iWrite]

You know what the scary thing is?

In discussions with the local sheriff's detectives and the FBI detectives during the hunt for our child and during the prosecution of this woman, the detectives told us that for the 1 egregious case that makes the headlines there are 10 that are equally bad and don't make the headlines.

Our case made local headlines and headlines in Seattle as a minor case because the police didn't want to publicize it out of fear that it would make this person more careful about being in public and seen. She was caught when she took our son to a local health department for medical treatment and she signed him in as a name that wasn't his name and when the nurse asked him his supposed name, as she had listed it, he told him what his real name was. The nurse asked a few more questions then went out to speak to the woman that had taken him and she wouldn't produce a driver's license so the health care center called police and they brought her into the police station where she confessed.

So, for as many cases as we see in the news, there are MANY more that are not in the news and guess what?

That means that these people, people who seem to be normal, are actually psycho and amongst us, teaching our kids, interacting with them, etc., and they could be hatching a plot to do some harm to either their child...or yours. Worse yet is the thought that they simply cannot logically and rationally make good decisions and that means that the public at large is at risk.

I read recently about a cop that left his two kids in his car with the windows rolled up -- and a fellow officer discovered the kids two hours later...dead.

A COP.

[ambush]

Originally posted by suprz:
you call it what you will.............to me it's justice. i would simply let the punishment fit the crime

That's illegal man.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by iWrite:
I read recently about a cop that left his two kids in his car with the windows rolled up -- and a fellow officer discovered the kids two hours later...dead.

A COP.

On the flip side of that... I ran into a Starbucks to grab a coffee (for me) and a water (for my dog) and I left the dog in the car (WITH THE ENGINE and AIR-CONDITIONING running, but the doors locked) and was reamed out by a lady that was an inch away from bashing in my window.

"How DARE you mistreat that animal!!!"

Ugh...

I do understand how the mental issues (AKA Get out of Jail Free card) has been overplayed. It's just sad that some people resort to such extremes. I think it's a reflection of our society. We don't tolerate anything less then perfection... so some people freak when they aren't perfect.

iWrite... You just got one crazy freak... WTF!!!

[macnnhelpme]

iWrite - incredible story, thank you for sharing with us. If that lady had shown back up on my doorstep, I believe I would have invited her in the house, pulled out a gun and shot her dead on the spot. I'm serious.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by ambush:
That's illegal man.

Revenge never helps the situation. You need laws and rules. Everyone should play by the rules... if they don't, judge them and sentence them and be done with it...

I don't waste my time with revenge. It's counterproductive... I think of revenge as being only slightly better then the original crime...

[davesimondotcom]

I was really hoping this was a joke post. Very disturbing.

[ambush]

Originally posted by iWrite:
You know what the scary thing is?

In discussions with the local sheriff's detectives and the FBI detectives during the hunt for our child and during the prosecution of this woman, the detectives told us that for the 1 egregious case that makes the headlines there are 10 that are equally bad and don't make the headlines.

Our case made local headlines and headlines in Seattle as a minor case because the police didn't want to publicize it out of fear that it would make this person more careful about being in public and seen. She was caught when she took our son to a local health department for medical treatment and she signed him in as a name that wasn't his name and when the nurse asked him his supposed name, as she had listed it, he told him what his real name was. The nurse asked a few more questions then went out to speak to the woman that had taken him and she wouldn't produce a driver's license so the health care center called police and they brought her into the police station where she confessed.

So, for as many cases as we see in the news, there are MANY more that are not in the news and guess what?

That means that these people, people who seem to be normal, are actually psycho and amongst us, teaching our kids, interacting with them, etc., and they could be hatching a plot to do some harm to either their child...or yours. Worse yet is the thought that they simply cannot logically and rationally make good decisions and that means that the public at large is at risk.

I read recently about a cop that left his two kids in his car with the windows rolled up -- and a fellow officer discovered the kids two hours later...dead.

A COP.

A cop? you can't just tag cops as angels.
I've seen cops beat homeless, african american people to death and stuff.

yah you're right your kid was kidnapped for 3 days (it's terrible, I admit it).

But you can't even compare that incident with, say, the war in Iraq. I mean, a LOT of kids die in wars, and it's like "not important".

You should see "Bowling for Comlumbine", it's a good documentary.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by macnnhelpme:
iWrite - incredible story, thank you for sharing with us. If that lady had shown back up on my doorstep, I believe I would have invited her in the house, pulled out a gun and shot her dead on the spot. I'm serious.

OK Crazy...

I would have kicked her out and called the cops...

I would have done the same thing as iWrite did...

[ambush]

Originally posted by macnnhelpme:
iWrite - incredible story, thank you for sharing with us. If that lady had shown back up on my doorstep, I believe I would have invited her in the house, pulled out a gun and shot her dead on the spot. I'm serious.

Yay for idiots like you.

Sorry man, we're not in the 1800s, you don't solve problems with your Colt. Idiot.

[philzilla]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
I was really hoping this was a joke post. Very disturbing.

you know me, i'm always upsetting people. sorry for not joking, dude

[iWrite]

Actually, I didn't punch her in the face until after she grabbed me and started screaming about forgiveness and "God has helped her," and she was choking me -- it was truly self-defense.

I actually thought she was going to kill me or do something and take our son again.

Actually, I've never compared our situation to the war in Iraq, sorry, although I have a great deal of sympathy and feel that the U.S. should not be there (or in other places) as "policemen."

I feel sorry for all people who have their children hurt through disease or neglect or abuse, even going hungry.

Our company sponsors a big charity (that we formed) through the local malls that helps local children get a new gift-wrapped toy at the holidays that is between $25 to $35 and we get the local department stores to give gift certificates also. We also collect toys for the Jackson Memorial Burn Unit in Miami for the burned children who are spending the holidays in the hospital in the burn unit. It's not much and it's certainly not enough but we try to help as much as possible because we can. It's something that we can help with. If everyone helped a little more the world would be a much better place.

Kids are great and they should never suffer, ever.

[wdlove]

That is a very disturbing story. I feel very sorry for the 2 remaining children and her husband. Hopefully they can find some comfort. She should never see the light of day again!

[iWrite]

Actually, discussing guns, we don't have one.

But, as I mentioned, we live in a double-gated and guarded community and the guards do carry guns -- and they shot someone not long ago (unfortunately).

I don't have a gun and I don't feel comfortable having one or using one, but I have to admit that I do feel a LOT better knowing that there is a guard right down the street that does have a gun and will use it. The guards here are actually off-duty cops or former cops.

I do have a mean parrot though!

[Simon X]

Originally posted by macnnhelpme:
iWrite - incredible story, thank you for sharing with us. If that lady had shown back up on my doorstep, I believe I would have invited her in the house, pulled out a gun and shot her dead on the spot. I'm serious.

What kind of f*cked up world do you live in?! If you truly are serious then I recommend you seek psychiatric help. Soon.

[iWrite]

Actually, want to hear something interesting?

The cops told us to get a gun and if she came again to shoot her. Seriously, they did, and I'll never forget him saying, "And don't shoot to hurt her but shoot to kill her or else she'll sue you. At this point she's a serious menace." This was after the second incident.

We moved instead.

Now she's out and wandering around, probably working someplace and planning to do some other evil thing to another family.

So, he's not far off when he says that he'd shoot her -- that mentality is actually more common than you think, especially in certain parts of the United States (Deep South).

[suprz]

if anyone hurt my kids i would kill them and eat lunch off of their cold dead body

yeah, i know.....THATS ILLEGAL MAN......big woops

[iWrite]

Are you Italian, suprz?

That sounds exactly like what one of our Italian friends said!

[daimoni]

.

[iWrite]

Gotta go run errands and pay bills so everyone have a good day.

Sorry if THIS thread is offensive to anyone -- seriously!

[tooki]

Originally posted by ambush:
You should see "Bowling for Comlumbine", it's a good documentary.

As long as one is clear on the point that Bowling for Columbine straddles the line between documentary and mockumentary.

tooki

[suprz]

Originally posted by iWrite:
Are you Italian, suprz?

That sounds exactly like what one of our Italian friends said!

funny you should say that.......as a matter of fact i am

[tooki]

Originally posted by iWrite:
"Mental illness" doesn't wash with me.

It's not an excuse, but it is an explanation.

IMHO, mental illness may explain why someone did something, but I don't understand why it should merit a reduced sentence -- it seems to me that the mentally ill are no less likely to re-commit their crime after release.

tooki

[iWrite]

Oh, one more thing?

People do a lot more harm to their kids without intending to -- or through making poor decisions -- themselves.

For instance, mentioning the Jackson Memorial Burn Unit? Well, we had an employee's little boy get seriously burned (lost the skin off of the side of his face -- all of it -- when a cup of microwaved water exploded in his face when he was two years old) and when we went down there to see if we could do anything we saw another little baby in the room with him: A 12-month baby that had been there for 5 months because his mother left him home alone in a crib when the house caught on fire and burned down with him trapped in the crib. His mother was being prosecuted and had in the meantime abandoned him. Poor little guy didn't have any feet or hands and was terribly burned. (Gosh, now I'm going to start crying.) But, you know what? We gave him a little toy that we'd brought for the other baby we were visiting and though his face was terribly deformed, he gave us the hugest smile you could ever have imagined.

We learned that most of those kids in there had been in terrible accidents because they were unsupervised or home alone. One little boy had had to undergo surgery on his genitals because he came home from school (3rd grader) and he microwaved a big bowl of soup then took it into the living room to eat it...only he sat down on a rocking chair and when the rocking chair rocked the soup sloshed and spilled all over his groin -- boiling hot soup. He lost all of the skin there on everything and had to have many surgeries. Another baby had bitten an electrical cord that had lost the plastic covering and her face was severely burned and she'd had to have her tongue reconstructed.

So, parents that are neglectful are just as bad. Yes, some situations are accidents but many could have been prevented if people had just taken better care of their kids. Those children there are the true victims and unfortunately, a burn is a terrible way to suffer, especially when it disfigures a child for life.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by tooki:
It's not an excuse, but it is an explanation.

IMHO, mental illness may explain why someone did something, but I don't understand why it should merit a reduced sentence -- it seems to me that the mentally ill are no less likely to re-commit their crime after release.

tooki

Precisely.

iWrite: That's horrible... I can't possibly imagine what you would have felt during that time, but it's something nobody should ever have to experience.

I don't care if a person is sane or not; it's what they do that counts. This woman should be put to death.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by ambush:
Yay for idiots like you.

Sorry man, we're not in the 1800s, you don't solve problems with your Colt. Idiot.

Yes... you do.

Sometimes it's the only way, unfortunately. Damn the people that force us to resort to such measures. Nobody else.

[gerbnl]

Originally posted by iWrite:
A COP.

Just for a second i thought that was your sig

[Zimphire]

I'll bet you money she claims she heard voices telling her to do it.

[gerbnl]

Originally posted by iWrite:
SUSPICION of murder?

Yup! That's what it is called until a court decides otherwise.

[Developer]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I'll bet you money she claims she heard voices telling her to do it.

If you don't think that's possible then go visit a psychiatry.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by suprz:
you call it what you will.............to me it's justice. i would simply let the punishment fit the crime

You are not the law. Worse, by committing the act you're proposing in cold blood you are putting yourself on a level below the criminal.

The only way the law can be upheld is if the law behaves in a moral way.

[suprz]

Originally posted by Mastrap:

if the law behaves in a moral way. [/B]

hmmm.....that's interesting terms, using the word "LAW" and "MORAL" in the same sentence.....

[christ]

Originally posted by suprz:
you call it what you will.............to me it's justice. i would simply let the punishment fit the crime

And her father kills you.

And your son kills her father.

And her family bombs your family outing.

And a survivor of the blast destroys an aeroplane carrying her family...

Way to go. Is your name 'Hatfield' or 'McCoy'?

[suprz]

Originally posted by christ:
And her father kills you.

And your son kills her father.

And her family bombs your family outing.

And a survivor of the blast destroys an aeroplane carrying her family...

Way to go. Is your name 'Hatfield' or 'McCoy'?

i've never cared for either of those last names..

i like your user name though, maybe we should just let you decide what to do with her

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Developer:
If you don't think that's possible then go visit a psychiatry.

Actually I believe it is VERY possible. And it happens more than people would like to admit. I don't recall saying otherwise.

[iWrite]

Gosh, you guys were all busy while I was out making my car payment and filling it up with gas at 1.87 a gallon for 87 unleaded ---> !

Cipher: Thanks, but it's over and done. I don't think she should be put to death. Definitely not. But, she shouldn't be out running around, perpetually on probation. It was terrible to go through, especially the first few days. You wake up and your brain hurts down to the core and the first thing that hits you is a horrible feeling of dread and then it all comes back to you in a rush and you panic. I remember breathing into a lot of paper bags because I was hyperventilating. Then, on the third day, they told us the caretaker was missing and that they'd been able to track her credit card purchases for gas and that they'd tracked her across the United States and it was only a matter of apprehending her. We were SO relieved when we realized that it was her behind it and not some Adam Walsh-type psycho because the FBI psychologist said that it was going to be a) A case where she wanted a baby and stole one (she was about 50 years old or b) She wanted to be paid off.

It turned out to be b) though she was picked up before then. She confessed to it after she was in police custody.

gerbnl: No, I'm definitely NOT a cop. Far from it -- I don't have the stomach for that sort of thing.

suprz said
i've never cared for either of those last names..

i like your user name though, maybe we should just let you decide what to do with her

That made me LAUGH!

[RAzaRazor]

Originally posted by iWrite:
Gosh, you guys were all busy while I was out making my car payment and filling it up with gas at 1.87 a gallon for 87 unleaded ---> !

What, are you in Phoenix? If so, where did you get gas for only $1.87??

[iWrite]

You know, I saw that on the news last night, that some gas stations there were charging up to $3.99 a gallon ---><---

We're in the Southeast with a minor hurricane headed our way, that's all.

We're in the Southeast where our house insurance went up 45% this year alone because of being in the "hurricane zone" and furthermore, our insurance company, Allstate, is leaving the state completely after this year and we'll have a hard time finding a new carrier.

We're in the Southeast where they have just discovered that we have malaria circulating in the mosquitos -- a few people are infected with malaria.

But, it's all nothing compared to the flash floods and the price of your gas and how hot it is there.



(In other words, everyplace has its negatives.)

[macnnhelpme]

Originally posted by ambush:
Yay for idiots like you.

Sorry man, we're not in the 1800s, you don't solve problems with your Colt. Idiot.

Excuse me, this is in response to you and the other person that thinks I'M the one that's CRAZY!!

A woman kidnaps my kid, for three days, luckly gets caught, lands in jail, gets out, comes bad to my house and starts to threaten and choke me? Right. I beg to differ, but in this case a Colt WOULD solve a problem. It might create another but I'll be damned if I'd let that kind of crap go on, even if I wound up with jail.

In the US, it is my right to have a gun and I have a right to defend my home and family. If she were in my house choking me and I shot her as a result, I'd likely not be thrown in jail as a result. If she were on my porch or outside of my house, different story. Regardless, if she were dead and my wife and child were safe and I wound up in jail, so be it.

Yeah, you might say it's easy for me to say that now, not having been through it, and you're right to a degree. But I do have two guns in my house for the sole purpose of protecting my house and family. If not hesitating to use them makes me 'crazy', then call me crazy.

[iWrite]

Actually, it was for 10 days.

We found out that she probably had him after 3, but we weren't positive until on the afternoon of the 10th day when she was picked up by police.