[Taliesin]

... in order to establish an atmosphere in which negotiations are more possible. We will see if he can also convince Hamas and the other islamistic resistance-groups of that strategy. Here is the BBC-report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4096783.stm

All the while Hamas is continuing its guerillia-resistance by killing five israeli soldiers at a checkpoint between Gaza and Egypt with the help of a tunnel and explosives. Here is the BBC-report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4090299.stm

Taliesin

[Abu Bakr]

The armed resistance should NOT end! The retaliations/terrorism must end but ending the armed resistance will be suicide and only lead to a fragmented non-viable bantusan under the heel of the Israeli war machine.

This is what it will lead to.

[CreepingDeth]

It's okay to have guerillas killing Israelis.

[vmarks]

Abu Bakr is overlooking the PLO / PA plan:

Stop fighting, get a two-state solution temporarily, use the time to regroup and re-arm, and then attack to eliminate Israel.

As Farouk Khadoui says, “[There are] 300 million Arabs, while Israel has only the sea behind it.”

Abbas calling for an end to armed resistance is an attempt to lead to the first part of that- which is fine and well, provided the re-group, re-arm, and launch attacks to eliminate Israel don't take place. As it is, the armed resistance is one of the things preventing Palestinians from improving the quality of their lives. Ending the armed resistance, and most importantly, accepting Israel's right to exist, are the big steps to ending conflict and improving the quality of life for people.

Conflicts end when both sides agree on the outcome. As it is, Palestinians who still believe they can and must eradicate Israel prolong the war they started most recently in 2000.

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Abu Bakr is overlooking the PLO / PA plan:

No I'm not. It's irrelevant.

Conflicts end when both sides agree on the outcome. As it is, Palestinians who still believe they can and must eradicate Israel prolong the war they started most recently in 2000.

The war was started by the Zionists and later Israel in the beginning of the 1900's. Palestinians didn't start a war. And the current intifada was started by the mass-murderer Sharon and Netanyahu. Not Palestinians.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
No I'm not. It's irrelevant.

The war was started by the Zionists and later Israel in the beginning of the 1900's. Palestinians didn't start a war. And the current intifada was started by the mass-murderer Sharon and Netanyahu. Not Palestinians.

Your history fails even the casual observer's knowledge of fact.

The 1900s had the region owned by the Ottomans, who were resident in the land. Jews and Arabs alike were in the Turk army, until of course the British and French came into the picture. The Turks were no great benevolent ruler, having already shown their treatment of Christian Armenians. When the British asked some of the Jews who they wanted to see take the lead, the Jews responded with an arabic phrase that translates to 'whoever marries my mother is my father.' When the Jews threw off the institutionalized second-class treatment they suffered by the Arabs, that was when the war started, and the Arabs began massacring Jews in number.

the current war (not uprising (intifada) it's a war) was started by Arafat and Abbas, planned while they were at Camp David supposedly meeting for peace. Abbas and Arafat confirmed this.

[Start Quote From Associated Press][1]

Palestinian Cabinet minister…Communications Minister Imad Falouji said during a PLO rally that it is a mistake to think that the intifada, or uprising, in which more than 400 people have been killed, was sparked by Israeli Prime Minister-elect Ariel Sharon’s controversial visit to Al-Aqsa mosque compound in late September.


‘It had been planned since Chairman Arafat’s return from Camp David, when he turned the tables in the face of the former U.S. president (Bill Clinton) and rejected the American conditions,’ Falouji said.


[End Quote From Associated Press] --- Associated Press Worldstream,�_ March 2, 2001; Friday,�_ International news,�_ 363 words,�_ Palestinian Cabinet minister says Palestinian uprising was planned,�_ SIDON, Lebanon


It is noteworthy that Falouji was issuing a *denial*. That is, he was assuring Arabs - proudly - that the Intifada had not been a spontaneous reaction.

[Mithras]

How about you two switch sides, and argue the other's POV for awhile? Maybe we'd actually learn something and/or reach some common ground for once.

vmarks, you start.

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Your history fails even the casual observer's knowledge of fact.

The 1900s had the region owned by the Ottomans, who were resident in the land. Jews and Arabs alike were in the Turk army, until of course the British and French came into the picture. The Turks were no great benevolent ruler, having already shown their treatment of Christian Armenians. When the British asked some of the Jews who they wanted to see take the lead, the Jews responded with an arabic phrase that translates to 'whoever marries my mother is my father.' When the Jews threw off the institutionalized second-class treatment they suffered by the Arabs, that was when the war started, and the Arabs began massacring Jews in number.

And you call Palestinian schools having brainwashed the Palestinians. tsk tsk. It was not the "throwing off the institutionalized second-class treatment" that started the war. It was the huge immport of foreigners into Palestinian land. The Jews were a small minority in the region and should not have been given their own nation according to the rules at that time.

the current war (not uprising (intifada) it's a war) was started by Arafat and Abbas, planned while they were at Camp David supposedly meeting for peace. Abbas and Arafat confirmed this.

If that is the case you'll have to follow the rules of war. Which you don't.

Oh and the next time you copy paste something you should say from where it is.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Mithras:
How about you two switch sides, and argue the other's POV for awhile? Maybe we'd actually learn something and/or reach some common ground for once.

vmarks, you start.

What you don't understand is that I am actually for improving the lives of Palestinians. I want a two-state solution- as long as it isn't going to mean a one-state solution with the eradication of Israel as the PA and PLO have already revealed.

When the Palestinians give up on destroying Israel, the gates of trade and all the quality of life improvements that it brings will come rushing open.

[itai195]

One thing's for sure, I don't see how the armed resistance has brought the Palestinians anything more than ruin. 90% of their economy is gone, they have less freedom of movement, etc. They aren't any closer to a viable state today than they were five or six years ago.

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by Mithras:
How about you two switch sides, and argue the other's POV for awhile? Maybe we'd actually learn something and/or reach some common ground for once.

vmarks, you start.

He can't. In his opinion Muslims are the root of all evil. Just take a look at the "Islamophobia is on the rise" thread. There he tries to lie that a Muslim killed Pim Fortuyn. When called on it he conveniently "forgets" the thread.

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by itai195:
One thing's for sure, I don't see how the armed resistance has brought the Palestinians anything more than ruin. 90% of their economy is gone, they have less freedom of movement, etc. They aren't any closer to a viable state today than they were five or six years ago.

And from the "other" side you can say the same.

One thing is for sure, I don't see how the continued occupation has brought the Israelis anything more than death and suffering. ........... They aren't any closer to safety today than they were fifty or sixty years ago.

See how little sense it makes?

And take a look at the final status map I linked to above. Would you accept that happening to your nation?

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
... in order to establish an atmosphere in which negotiations are more possible. We will see if he can also convince Hamas and the other islamistic resistance-groups of that strategy. Here is the BBC-report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4096783.stm

Good for them. It's an important step towards peace. Now the question is: will Hamas and their ilk listen to Abbas, and if they don't, how far will Abbas go to force them into line?

But even if that fails, this remains an important step. The ball is now in Sharon's court to negotiate in good faith, given this renunciation of violence.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
And from the "other" side you can say the same.

One thing is for sure, I don't see how the continued occupation has brought the Israelis anything more than death and suffering. ........... They aren't any closer to safety today than they were fifty or sixty years ago.

Never said I disagreed with this. I'd also like to see the occupation end, of course I think we primarily disagree on terms of withdrawal.

And take a look at the final status map I linked to above. Would you accept that happening to your nation?

AFAIK, that map isn't anything but a rumor. I've heard that Dennis Ross claims it wasn't the final offer.

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Good for them. It's an important step towards peace. Now the question is: will Hamas and their ilk listen to Abbas, and if they don't, how far will Abbas go to force them into line?

But even if that fails, this remains an important step. The ball is now in Sharon's court to negotiate in good faith, given this renunciation of violence.

When did he do that?

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by itai195:
Never said I disagreed with this. I'd also like to see the occupation end, of course I think we primarily disagree on terms of withdrawal.

That wouldn't surprise me at all

AFAIK, that map isn't anything but a rumor. I've heard that Dennis Ross claims it wasn't the final offer.

And of course you got a link to that?

And is this the same Dennis Ross that works for the "Washington Institute for Near East Policy" and who also works for the Jewish Agency?

http://www.jafi.org.il/agenda/2001/english/wk37/2.asp

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
When did he do that?

Sharon or Abbas? Abbas seems to have just renounced violence. Sharon hasn't yet; now it's his turn.

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Sharon or Abbas? Abbas seems to have just renounced violence. Sharon hasn't yet; now it's his turn.

OK. I misunderstood you last post.

Nevermind me.......

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
OK. I misunderstood you last post.

Nevermind me.......

No worries; I wasn't clear enough on who I was talking about.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Good for them. It's an important step towards peace. Now the question is: will Hamas and their ilk listen to Abbas, and if they don't, how far will Abbas go to force them into line?

But even if that fails, this remains an important step. The ball is now in Sharon's court to negotiate in good faith, given this renunciation of violence.

Difficult, very difficult, Hamas sees Palestine including Israel and views the state Israel as an occupation of palestinian land which has to be undone. So, Hamas goals are the withdrawal of european and american jews out of Israel and the abolishment of Israel as a state and the foundation of Palestine.

The PLO is more practically oriented and just has the goals of the foundation of Palestine side to side to Israel with East-Jerusalem as its capital. Sure, the PLO sometimes talks about a double-game, in which the creation of a palestinian state as a neighbour of Israel is just a first step on the way to a big Palestine and the return of refuggees to their homes and lands. But I think this is just a PR-strategy in order to gain support from within the more radical parts of PLO as well as from within the palestinian population, that still dreams of a return to their homes and lands.
The strategy behind that is that once a palestinian state is established, and the population feels the drastic improvement in security, wealth, freedom and way of life, it will give up its more unrealistic dreams and its fight for a return.

Taliesin

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Difficult, very difficult, Hamas sees Palestine including Israel and views the state Israel as an occupation of palestinian land which has to be undone. So, Hamas goals are the withdrawal of european and american jews out of Israel and the abolishment of Israel as a state and the foundation of Palestine.

The PLO is more practically oriented and just has the goals of the foundation of Palestine side to side to Israel with East-Jerusalem as its capital. Sure, the PLO sometimes talks about a double-game, in which the creation of a palestinian state as a neighbour of Israel is just a first step on the way to a big Palestine and the return of refuggees to their homes and lands. But I think this is just a PR-strategy in order to gain support from within the more radical parts of PLO as well as from within the palestinian population, that still dreams of a return to their homes and lands.
The strategy behind that is that once a palestinian state is established, and the population feels the drastic improvement in security, wealth, freedom and way of life, it will give up its more unrealistic dreams and its fight for a return.

Taliesin

Just to add from my experience the German model is something to be immulated in the future. As soon as Palestinians get their own state the militant factions will quickly lose their support and the Palestinians have a chance of working politically to a unified Palestine/Israel. The current resentment towards Israelis is not that they are Jews but that they are foreigners and perhaps most importantly that they have supported the actions of their government against our people. If the Israeli people would show that they want to live beside us as equals and to help both countries build up then I'm pretty sure most if not all of the resentment would disappear.