[Scifience]

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily...5/a09lo650.htm

The quick version: A Univeristy of Massachusetts at Dartmouth student needed a copy of Mao Tse-Tung's "The Little Red Book." He filled out an interlibrary loan request, and found himself visited a bit later by two Homeland Security agents who were interested in why he wanted that book. They claimed that it had something do with him travelling abroad a lot, and that the book was on a watch list.

How can anyone justify this? It is a BOOK. Not a bomb or something. A book which can be found online, in thousands of libraries (where you could just read it in person, thus hiding under the radar of the DHS), etc.

[Spliffdaddy]

I think it's wonderful that Americans have government agents that take the time to investigate any potential terror-related incident - no matter how small.

Makes me feel a bit safer. heck, I didn't think anybody was doing anything about it.

[black bear theory]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I think it's wonderful that Americans have government agents that take the time to investigate any potential terror-related incident - no matter how small.

even with all the obvious security holes? for example, those who have nothing to hide get investigated (in this case), but those who wish to evade detection can do so very easily (and who knows how many other cases).

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by black bear theory

even with all the obvious security holes? what about the other 95% who get the information by not checking out books?

Are you talking about the domestic effort? If so, Iast I checked the USA hasn't been been hit since 9-11.

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I think it's wonderful that Americans have government agents that take the time to investigate any potential terror-related incident - no matter how small.

Makes me feel a bit safer. heck, I didn't think anybody was doing anything about it.

BWAHAHAHAHA!

Yeah...those little red books hurt when you throw them like a frizbee.

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

Are you talking about the domestic effort? If so, Iast I checked the USA hasn't been been hit since 9-11.

Yeah, before then the U.S. was hit at least once a month.

[analogika]

Please, somebody try that with Mein Kampf and see it the DHS calls by...

[black bear theory]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

Are you talking about the domestic effort? If so, Iast I checked the USA hasn't been been hit since 9-11.

you are correct about not being hit, but i don't think the threat is from college term paper writers.

anyway i was at the library today looking at some technical books. i didn't check anything out. i wrote down some notes in my notebook and two hours later left. which book(s) was i looking at?

the librarian doesn't know. therefore, the government has no reason to suspect me of anything. nobody knows but me.

does that make you feel safe?

there are obvious gaps in these security measures, and there is no way to fill them. maybe some token investigations will allay some people's fears, but they do nothing for me.

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

Yeah, before then the U.S. was hit at least once a month.

You miss the point.
The problem lies in determining how many potential attacks have been squashed since 9-11. I find it hard too believe that cells haven't tried to strike again. Intelligence has improved, there are more ground agents in the middle east, and communication channels have evolved.

I spare you the emoticon, since there isn't one that quite captures your aura.

[black bear theory]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

You miss the point.
The problem lies in determining how many potential attacks have been squashed since 9-11. I find it hard too believe that cells haven't tried to strike again. Intelligence has improved, there are more ground agents in the middle east, and communication channels have evolved.

i find it hard to believe, that given the opposition to the patriot act domestically, that said aversions of diasaster have not been put to political use.

i don't get your point. do you know that disaster was avoided because of this legislation?

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by black bear theory

i find it hard to believe, that given the opposition to the patriot act domestically, that said aversions of diasaster have not been put to political use.

You mean like what you just wrote.

I don't think it is just one policy that will halt terrorism and avoid disaster, but instead a mindset of vigilance across the board, in every arena. If you want to call vigilance a policy, then go ahead. I call it a noun.

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Makes me feel a bit safer.

Poor baby I didn't know you were so afraid. Because Tampa is way up there on the list of terrorist targets. I find it hilarious that the people who are at the least risk of ever experiencing anything remotely related to terrorism are the ones who are soooo scared and need to feel safey wafey.

Meanwhile the people in NY are walking around doing their thing. Nobody here needs unwarranted visits from the SS to make us feel safer.

[Spliffdaddy]

I think most Americans would feel even safer without NYC being a part of the US.

It's like a huge well-lit target for all the loonies in the world.

By living there you assume a certain level of risk.

By *not* living there, a person should feel safer.

Besides, NYC smells kinda like sweaty armpits.

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by Moderator

Poor baby I didn't know you were so afraid. Because Tampa is way up there on the list of terrorist targets. I find it hilarious that the people who are at the least risk of ever experiencing anything remotely related to terrorism are the ones who are soooo scared and need to feel safey wafey.

Meanwhile the people in NY are walking around doing there thing. Nobody here needs unwarranted visits from the SS to make us feel safer.

tell that to shanksville, pa and their population of 3.

[OldManMac]

You can't justify it, because it has nothing whatsoever to do with stopping terrorism, but it is great publicity for Washington, so those who look under their bed at night for that awful terrorist will feel better knowing that their government is on the ball. This entire country is wide open for future terrorist attacks, and there's nothing that can be done if the terrorists want to attack, least of all checking libraries to see what people are reading.

[OreoCookie]

Hmmm, all this debate reminds me of those movies in the 80s with Dolph Lundgren. In one of them the bad guys were evil Nazicommunists ...

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Hmmm, all this debate reminds me of those movies in the 80s with Dolph Lundgren. In one of them the bad guys were evil Nazicommunists ...

When I was a child, in the 50s, the threat was the Evil Red Menace, and we had drills in school, where we hid under our desks. This was going to save us from the bombs the Russians were going to drop on us. Some businesses were making a killing (pun intended) selling stupid people bomb shelters, as if they were going to be safe after a nuclear war. You're far more likely to get killed in a car accident, or even by someone you know, via an act of murder, than you are to be killed by a terrorist, but none of that matters to people who, for whatever reason, can't grasp something so simple. Apparently they need to believe so badly in some evil concept that will never affect them, that they'll throw reality out the window.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I think most Americans would feel even safer without NYC being a part of the US.

It's like a huge well-lit target for all the loonies in the world.

By living there you assume a certain level of risk.

By *not* living there, a person should feel safer.

Besides, NYC smells kinda like sweaty armpits.

NYC > Tampa on ANY day of the week!!!

[jesusbristow]

Originally Posted by analogika

Please, somebody try that with Mein Kampf and see it the DHS calls by...

I did. They asked if I wanted to work for them...

[Moderator]

"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

guess this sums it up best

[mania]

Originally Posted by jesusbristow

I did. They asked if I wanted to work for them...

[Pendergast]

This is called "prevention". You handle the situation before it gets worse.

No one wants communism to be understood; far too dangerous, considering that the chinese have WMDs.

Which reminds me that this technique has been used abroad in another country.. Can't remember the name... I think it wa about WMDs that were not there at all...

Help me remember, please... that prevention thing is making me forget things ever happened...

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by James L

NYC > Tampa on ANY day of the week!!!

lol.

Let's talk weather...

I have my window open.

It's December 17th and I haven't bothered to look for my jacket. If I even have one.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

lol.

Let's talk weather...

I have my window open.

It's December 17th and I haven't bothered to look for my jacket. If I even have one.

Florida, hmmm, that's where all the old people go, isn't it?

[James L]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

lol.

Let's talk weather...

I have my window open.

It's December 17th and I haven't bothered to look for my jacket. If I even have one.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Florida, hmmm, that's where all the old people go, isn't it?

Is Spliffdaddy old? Maybe that's why he can't remember if he has a jacket or not?

[Spliffdaddy]

I'm not as old as KarlG.

But I'm a close second.

We have a saying here in Florida...

um. oh hell I forget.

[OldManMac]

I don't think you're anywhere near a close second. IIRC, you're in your late thirties? I'm 1.5 years away from 60.

[Spliffdaddy]

39.5

Besides yourself, I don't think anybody here is older than me.

Just the other day I was 23.

What the hell happened?

[Spliffdaddy]

Oh yeah. Now I remember.

I stayed stoned for the last 16 years.

[Spliffdaddy]

Tampa Forecast:

Sun - 68
Mon - 68
Tue - 67
Wed - 68
Thu - 66
Fri - 64
Sat - 67
Sun - 69
Mon - 67

New York City Forecast:

Sun - 42
Mon - 34
Tue - 33
Wed - 34
Thu - 37
Fri - 39
Sat - 45
Sun - 41
Mon - 40

You guys won't be seeing any hotties in skirts for another five months.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

You guys won't be seeing any hotties in skirts for another five months.

Hotties in skirts? Could you supply a visual? I'm not very familiar with these terms.

[Spliffdaddy]

It's a southern thing. You wouldn't understand.

A skirt is kinda like a, um...coat that only covers from the waist to the knees (at maximum). There are no leg holes - it's simply one big hole through which both legs protrude.

A "hottie" is an attractive girl. You only find hotties in the southern US....that is, states south of the Mason-Dixon line.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

I don't think it is just one policy that will halt terrorism and avoid disaster, but instead a mindset of vigilance across the board, in every arena. If you want to call vigilance a policy, then go ahead. I call it a noun.

That's vigilance in the same way that me punching you in the nose every hour or so just in case you were thinking of doing something bad is crime prevention.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

That's vigilance in the same way that me punching you in the nose every hour or so just in case you were thinking of doing something bad is crime prevention.

[Spliffdaddy]

If a cop sees a man running from a bank with a ski mask over his face and carrying a sack in his hand - the cop shouldn't interfere just in case the man didn't commit a crime?

Vigilance is simply paying attention to things that *appear* to be a problem.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I'm not as old as KarlG.

But I'm a close second.

We have a saying here in Florida...

um. oh hell I forget.

LOL!

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

If a cop sees a man running from a bank with a ski mask over his face and carrying a sack in his hand - the cop shouldn't interfere just in case the man didn't commit a crime?

Vigilance is simply paying attention to things that *appear* to be a problem.

You are all right here. The issue at hand is that this does not appear to be a problem by any reasonable standard. The guy checked out a book about the philosophy of an important historical figure. I really don't think we should be getting into thought policing here.

[hyteckit]

Hmm... China becoming more like the US and US becoming more like China. They will converge at some point.

Welcome to the new free world.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Scifience

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily...5/a09lo650.htm

The quick version: A Univeristy of Massachusetts at Dartmouth student needed a copy of Mao Tse-Tung's "The Little Red Book." He filled out an interlibrary loan request, and found himself visited a bit later by two Homeland Security agents who were interested in why he wanted that book. They claimed that it had something do with him travelling abroad a lot, and that the book was on a watch list.

I can understand your problem with this. Even if someone nafarious does get their hands on that book, how is that going to help them commit an atrocity here? For all we know, he'd learn more about communism and decide he's disenchanted with it.

How can anyone justify this? It is a BOOK. Not a bomb or something. A book which can be found online, in thousands of libraries (where you could just read it in person, thus hiding under the radar of the DHS), etc.

I clicked your link, read the story and am again, concerned about it. I was unable to find another source for that story though. I googled it and nothing. I went to CNN.COM thinking surely they would've covered this piece. Nothing. Do you have another source for this story?

[SimeyTheLimey]

I give this one about 24 hours before it is debunked. I mean, think about it for a second. Books by Mao are widely available in bookstores, including online booksellers like Amazon. If "agents" of the Department of Homeland Security went about interviewing students for borrowing the book, don't you think they would interview people who buy it? Why aren't there more such stories?

Second, who does anyone suppose did the reporting? Those famously right-wing librarians at Dartmouth? Please! Or how about the library they requested the book from? That is, a library that has this subversive book in their catalog. Those are the only two sources, but is either likely?

Third, who gives a social security number to get an interlibrary loan? Here is the UMASS Dartmouth form:
Link It does not require Social Security Number.

Odds are this is one of those made up "student says something bad happened" stories that turn out to be hoaxes -- often by the student himself. I mean for goodness sake, look at what was claimed:

Two history professors at UMass Dartmouth, Brian Glyn Williams and Robert Pontbriand, said the student told them he requested the book through the UMass Dartmouth library's interlibrary loan program.

Two professors say that someone said to them that something happened. We don't even have the student saying something happened. Just somebody claiming he said something. In law that is called hearsay, and it is inherently unreliable. There is no attempt in that article to talk to the student, the library, or the Department of Homeland Security. Just two professors repeating something they claim someone said to them.

You guys need to develop a bull filter. Stop being so gullible.

[Athens]

I think this image sums up the United States

[Athens]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

I give this one about 24 hours before it is debunked. I mean, think about it for a second. Books by Mao are widely available in bookstores, including online booksellers like Amazon. If "agents" of the Department of Homeland Security went about interviewing students for borrowing the book, don't you think they would interview people who buy it? Why aren't there more such stories?

Second, who does anyone suppose did the reporting? Those famously right-wing librarians at Dartmouth? Please! Or how about the library they requested the book from? That is, a library that has this subversive book in their catalog. Those are the only two sources, but is either likely?

Third, who gives a social security number to get an interlibrary loan? Here is the UMASS Dartmouth form:
Link It does not require Social Security Number.

Odds are this is one of those made up "student says something bad happened" stories that turn out to be hoaxes -- often by the student himself. I mean for goodness sake, look at what was claimed:



Two professors say that someone said to them that something happened. We don't even have the student saying something happened. Just somebody claiming he said something. In law that is called hearsay, and it is inherently unreliable. There is no attempt in that article to talk to the student, the library, or the Department of Homeland Security. Just two professors repeating something they claim someone said to them.

You guys need to develop a bull filter. Stop being so gullible.

UMass ID is the social security number http://wise.umassp.edu/logon.umspb.html

Second, books on watch lists get automatically sent to Home Land security for review. In this case it wasn't the filtered pretty version of the book available to buy, it was the authentic version, and based on the students travel patterns its very plausible they would interview him. Some joe blow getting the normal domestic version of the book who doesn't travel probably would be cleared for no further review. I don't think its a hoax at all.

[Spliffdaddy]

I think this image sums up other nations of the world:

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

lol.

Let's talk weather...

I have my window open.

It's December 17th and I haven't bothered to look for my jacket. If I even have one.

Mid day im still running around in a normal shirt, no jacket, its only cold here during the night

[Athens]

Spliffdaddy, what is it that is being protected in the US? Being being blown up? At what expense, the personal freedoms and liberties tens of thousands died for in the war of Independence? If you ask me a few thousand deaths from terrorists don't compare to the tens of thousands of lives lost giving you freedoms and liberties. Looks like terrorists have won, the fundamentals of what the US did stand for are slowing eroding away.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I think this image sums up other nations of the world:

Yep. A little white question mark on blue ground is EXACTLY what is going through most of the world's minds.

What the HELL are those Americans on?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I think this image sums up other nations of the world:

Yup, thats right, we are all thinking what the hell is going on in the US

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by Athens

Second, books on watch lists get automatically sent to Home Land security for review.

Books on what watch list? Show us the watch list, and tell us exactly who it was who turned this mysterious kid in to the big bad guvvermint.

You guys are so credulous. You will believe anything, no matter how unlikely or far-fetched.

[hyteckit]

Whole bunch of **** is on the watch list. Name, websites, books, groups, and so on.

Where have you been simey? Haven't watched the news?

US has become China. US is now spying on it's own citizens without a warrant.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

I clicked your link, read the story and am again, concerned about it. I was unable to find another source for that story though. I googled it and nothing. I went to CNN.COM thinking surely they would've covered this piece. Nothing. Do you have another source for this story?

I agree. I'm somewhat skeptical about this story. But I figured the fact that people were actually agreeing with this probably fictitious scenario made it worth discussing.