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iomatic · Jan 28, 2006, 12:02 AM

So, what am I missing, coming from the design profession? Obviously, Microsoft has to do a lot of work to convince stabled artists to switch, not only because of the new platform, but new investments in time and applications. Seems like everything they do is seemingly useless, or already done before by Apple, and then touted as an original feature.

What's the big deal, and why would Mac users in general care?

http://news.com.com/1606-2_3-6032382...2382&subj=news

JoshuaZ · Jan 28, 2006, 12:10 AM

We really don't, seeing how VISTA will never actually come out. At least not before Google buys M$ and takes over half of Europe.

Chuckit · 01:35 AM

Now that's a counting widget I'd like to see: how many times Vista has been bumped back.

I think Microsoft was just jealous that Apple held the vaporware OS record with Copland, and they knew they could beat it.

iomatic · Jan 28, 2006, 01:44 AM

When was it originally due, anyway? And what, if any advances will it have over Tiger?

Kerrigan · Jan 28, 2006, 02:06 AM

As a person who uses a computer only for internet browsing and word processing, I have no idea what advantages Vista has over Tiger. I have watched the demonstrations, and it does look very similar to Tiger, in terms of its graphics core and its eye candy, but that's about it.

When I see all of that new eye-candy, I'm reminded of the expression that you can polish a turd all day long, but at the end of the day all you have is a shiney turd.

Leia's Left Bun · Jan 28, 2006, 02:38 AM

I actually would like a bit more of a kiosk OS.

Jawbone54 · Jan 28, 2006, 02:38 AM

*attempted to polish a turd*
...
It is not shiny.

JoshuaZ · Jan 28, 2006, 03:14 AM

Maybe if you set it on fire.

mduell · Jan 28, 2006, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by iomatic

And what, if any advances will it have over Tiger?

One thing I've found kinda neat is per-application volume control. I'm sure I could think of a few others if I really tried.

Tomchu · Jan 28, 2006, 03:40 AM

Vista's graphics system is much more advanced than that which is currently available in OS X. Expect to see some pretty freaking awesome applications and effects once the power users start to tinker with it some more.

Ganesha · Jan 28, 2006, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

Vista's graphics system is much more advanced than that which is currently available in OS X. Expect to see some pretty freaking awesome applications and effects once the power users start to tinker with it some more.

I would hope so, seeing how Quartz is at least 5 year old technology.

Chuckit · Jan 28, 2006, 03:58 AM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

Vista's graphics system is much more advanced than that which is currently available in OS X. Expect to see some pretty freaking awesome applications and effects once the power users start to tinker with it some more.

Such as what? I can't think of many "awesome applications and effects" that would not be possible with Quartz and Core Image. But I'll admit it's late, so maybe there's something that just isn't coming to me.

goMac · Jan 28, 2006, 04:21 AM

Vista's graphics subsystem beat's Quartz into a dirty pulp. It's not even funny how much more advanced it is.

That said, aside from the usual Microsoft blot, the requirements on it are very high. Also there is a lot of crap they're demonstrating that I don't think anyone will ever need. (I can rotate my 2 graphs in 3D space? Huh?)

angelmb · Jan 28, 2006, 05:03 AM

Vista comes by default with Mac OS X since a long time ago

Gamoe · Jan 28, 2006, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by angelmb

Vista comes by default with Mac OS X since a long time ago

Funny, I never thought about how Apple would translate that into spanish. I would choose to "Ocultar Vista..."

baw · Jan 28, 2006, 06:44 AM

Microsoft Vista: The Widget.

Goldfinger · Jan 28, 2006, 08:00 AM

It looked pretty jerky to me. Maybe it's the low framerate of the movie but still...

Hawkeye_a · Jan 28, 2006, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Vista's graphics subsystem beat's Quartz into a dirty pulp. It's not even funny how much more advanced it is.

That said, aside from the usual Microsoft blot, the requirements on it are very high. Also there is a lot of crap they're demonstrating that I don't think anyone will ever need. (I can rotate my 2 graphs in 3D space? Huh?)

I havent read up on Vista at all, and i dont want to go hunting for the information cause i couldnt care about Microsoft or its products.

So i gotta ask you.... could you provide some comparison ? between Quartz Extreme and the Graphics subsystem of Vista ?

And in the end.... what can be acheived visually with Vista that cannot be acheived with Quartz Extreme.

Ill admit im biased towards Apple's technology cause it's elegant and uncompromising. Quartz...vector based....Quartz Extreme...OpenGL accelerated vector graphics, and hardware compositing for the desktop.

At the end of the day you can have a 3D desktop on OSX, what is so special of Microsoft's copy ? basically what can it accomplish that QE cannot ?(an honest question) a 3.5D desktop ?/sarcasm

Cheers

OreoCookie · Jan 28, 2006, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

Vista's graphics system is much more advanced than that which is currently available in OS X. Expect to see some pretty freaking awesome applications and effects once the power users start to tinker with it some more.

Like what? All I have seen from the demos and sample pics are tons of transparencies which are certainly something Quartz can do.

CKr · Jan 28, 2006, 10:52 AM

Yes, I'm a Mac user and will forever be one as long as Apple is around but, I for one am VERY excited to see Vista be released. Why? Look at it! Microsoft is doing some amazing things that will take the way businesses view information to a whole new level. It's very exciting stuff. You can also look at this at another angle. Microsoft comes out with this fancy-smancy new OS with all these graphics capabilities and Apple will be forced to advance beyond what they have. Give it time, this will all work out for the best of both worlds.

I'm willing to bet that once I get out of college I'll have both a new Intel Mac and a Windows box sitting side by side. The Mac as my primary box of course. The profession I'm in (MIS) pretty much requires me to be a Windows user at work. Dual booting my Mactel? Nope I just won't do it.

Goldfinger · Jan 28, 2006, 11:55 AM

It's great that Vista will support all this stuff but I guess that 80% of the windows devs won't even use it. Except for basic transparency eye candy.

Millennium · Jan 28, 2006, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

At the end of the day you can have a 3D desktop on OSX, what is so special of Microsoft's copy ? basically what can it accomplish that QE cannot ?(an honest question) a 3.5D desktop ?/sarcasm

This is something I'd like to know at well. Everything I've heard about Vista's graphics system seems to be little more than a rehashing of things that have been possible on OSX and even Linux for years.

goMac · Jan 28, 2006, 02:54 PM

In Vista, the whole graphics system is actually rendered by DirectX on the GPU in 3D space. This means it's is a whole lot cleaner than Quartz (ever try minimizing an OpenGL window to the dock?) Basically, from the way I understand it, everything is a DirectX texture. This is a whole lot more powerful than Quartz, where it's somewhat layered upon OpenGL but Quart itself is not fully written in OpenGL.

I think Quartz Extreme 2D was to be Apple's response, but I really think Apple should rewrite the whole window server and Quartz in response.

Oneota · Jan 28, 2006, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

I think Quartz Extreme 2D was to be Apple's response, but I really think Apple should rewrite the whole window server and Quartz in response.

WWDC 2006 will be pretty exciting with respect to this, I'm betting. Hopefully Leopard will be up to the task.

Kerrigan · Jan 28, 2006, 05:31 PM

Does anyone know how Windows' most important app, solitaire, is going to take advantage of the new graphics system?

Chuckit · Jan 28, 2006, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

I think Quartz Extreme 2D was to be Apple's response, but I really think Apple should rewrite the whole window server and Quartz in response.

They already redid Quartz Compositor with Quartz Extreme. If they finish Quartz 2D Extreme, what's left for them to rewrite?

goMac · Jan 28, 2006, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

They already redid Quartz Compositor with Quartz Extreme. If they finish Quartz 2D Extreme, what's left for them to rewrite?

Quartz Composer is actually really nice, but I'd still like it if they wrote a nicer windowing system that was up to par with Vista's.

Drakino · Jan 28, 2006, 06:03 PM

Well, Vista right now might sound cool for 3D windowing, but as far as I can see from the CTP December build, its mostly eye candy with no real puropse. The new application switcher concelas so much of the windows behind the front one, it is near impossible to tell the difference between similar looking windows. Where as Expose shows all windows fully, without a 3d effect.

They also aren't antialiasing the windows when the app switcher activates either, so its jaggy city.

Does anyone know how Windows' most important app, solitaire, is going to take advantage of the new graphics system?

For the first time since around Windows 3, solitaire and minesweeper both have been upgraded graphicially.

TETENAL · Jan 28, 2006, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

I'd still like it if they wrote a nicer windowing system that was up to par with Vista's.

The Mac's windowing system is on par with Vista's. There is nothing in Vista that the OS X window server couldn't do.

http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~rpointon/osx/fancy.dmg
(use the slider on the backside to change effects)

Tomchu · Jan 28, 2006, 06:28 PM

Seriously, go read a bit about Vista, and read about what's in OS X currently. The information is all out there.

OS X is nice, but let's not pretend that it's still the best of current technology when it comes to graphics system.

OreoCookie · Jan 28, 2006, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

In Vista, the whole graphics system is actually rendered by DirectX on the GPU in 3D space. This means it's is a whole lot cleaner than Quartz (ever try minimizing an OpenGL window to the dock?) Basically, from the way I understand it, everything is a DirectX texture. This is a whole lot more powerful than Quartz, where it's somewhat layered upon OpenGL but Quart itself is not fully written in OpenGL.

I think Quartz Extreme 2D was to be Apple's response, but I really think Apple should rewrite the whole window server and Quartz in response.

Well, the thing is what you do with it. And so far I haven't seen a thing you couldn't have done with Quartz.

You may be right that Quartz has some short-comings, but from the examples you give, Quartz needs work on some details.

TETENAL · Jan 28, 2006, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

Seriously, go read a bit about Vista, and read about what's in OS X currently. The information is all out there.

Would you kindly point us to the information about Vista's graphics system?

Originally Posted by Tomchu

OS X is nice, but let's not pretend that it's still the best of current technology when it comes to graphics system.

Which current system is better?

chabig · Jan 28, 2006, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

I think Quartz Extreme 2D was to be Apple's response, but I really think Apple should rewrite the whole window server and Quartz in response.

In response to what? A mirage? A promise? Vista isn't even shipping yet. When it ships, it will take YEARS for it to reach widespread use. Windows users as a whole seldom update their operating systems. Most of them won't get a new OS until they buy a new computer.

Chris

production_coordinator · Jan 28, 2006, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

Vista's graphics system is much more advanced than that which is currently available in OS X. Expect to see some pretty freaking awesome applications and effects once the power users start to tinker with it some more.

I also hear OS X 10.5 will be more advanced than OS X 10.4!

iomatic · Jan 28, 2006, 08:45 PM

Proof is in the putting, I say. What can you do with this nifty 3D interface that won't interfere with normal, day-to-day tasks? I mean, if I rotate through multiple windows in a 3D environment, what benefits are there for me; a really good slideshow? I mean, what's the dealy-o?

What specific innovations are in Vista that Quartz can't handle, and why is it necessary to the lay-user?

Anyone?

Salty · Jan 28, 2006, 08:56 PM

OK so Avalon is supposed to be so amazing right? Well what are they going to offer users that is going to actually make it do things that Quartz isn't already doing?

wataru · Jan 28, 2006, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by iomatic

Proof is in the putting

pudding

iomatic · Jan 28, 2006, 09:27 PM

Yeah, yeah. One malapropism does not a fool make.
Not Vista.

goMac · Jan 28, 2006, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

The Mac's windowing system is on par with Vista's. There is nothing in Vista that the OS X window server couldn't do.

http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~rpointon/osx/fancy.dmg
(use the slider on the backside to change effects)

Right. I've seen the code to that demo. It still doesn't live up to Avalon.

Hawkeye_a · Jan 28, 2006, 09:29 PM

I attended the WWDC where they introduced Quartz Extreme, and after listending to the Apple guys. Quartz Extreme actually converts the window to a texture that is accelerated using OpenGL and composited on the GPU. In fact it's not just a 3D accelerated desktop, seeing as how Quartz is based off of PDF, it's vector graphics that are accelerated in 3D as opposed to bitmapped textures accelerated in 3D.

Vista is a crude copy that used DirectX instead of OpenGL. benefit ? none that i can see so far

TETENAL · Jan 28, 2006, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

It still doesn't live up to Avalon.

Could you please tell what the fuсk Avalon does that is so great? Several people have asked this already so why isn't there an answer?

Chuckit · Jan 28, 2006, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Quartz Composer is actually really nice, but I'd still like it if they wrote a nicer windowing system that was up to par with Vista's.

Not Quartz Composer; Quartz Compositor. They rewrote it to be GPU-accelerated like Vista's windowing system years ago.

Tomchu · Jan 28, 2006, 10:46 PM

http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/20.../avalonxaml_f/
http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet..._3.html?page=1

I think some of you just have trouble accepting that Microsoft can implement something more advanced/more impressive than Apple. That second link goes into great detail about the two graphics systems, so I suggest that anyone who's been wanting a comparison read it carefully.

Oh, and get back to me about OS X when Apple finally implements Quartz 2D Extreme. Like I said earlier, I love my Macs, but pretending like OS X be-all, end-all of good technology is f***ing retarded.

chabig · Jan 28, 2006, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

I think some of you just have trouble accepting that Microsoft can implement something more advanced/more impressive than Apple.

You seem to forget that Vista isn't shipping yet, while OS X first shipped 6 years ago. Let's wait until Vista ships to see exactly what Microsoft has implemented. Then we'll compare it to what Apple is shipping.

Chris

TETENAL · Jan 28, 2006, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

I love my Macs, but pretending like OS X be-all, end-all of good technology is f***ing retarded.

Take your fuсking retard label and stick it to your forehead!

The first link doesn't talk about Avalon's graphics capabilities at all! Oh, you can use XML to describe the widgets – big deal, a Carbon-Nib is XML as well. Who cares?

Your second link doesn't compare "the two graphics systems". At least not if we talk about Quartz and Avalon as "the two". It compares Win32 with Avalon and there is nothing *) in that article that OS X could not do in Public Beta!

So if Avalon is so great, then show us something that Quartz can not do.

*)
with the exception that OS X is not automatically double buffering individual window elements. Remains to be seen whether Vista will do that (it would require a lot of memory) and can be achieved in OS X with overlay windows.

ambush · Jan 28, 2006, 11:02 PM

There is a lot of undocumented stuff.

For instance, you could mach_inject stuff into Dock.app and use the CoreGraphicsServices (CGS) functions in the app's memory space. There is cool stuff, including workspace support, transition stuff, global window ****, etc.

XML based Interfaces are just cool, and Apple should really pick up.

I'd like to see interfaces in some kind of CSS/XHTML connected to Cocoa, a bit like widgets, but better and directly tied to Cocoa. That'd rock.

Kevin · Jan 28, 2006, 11:04 PM

Here you go Ambush

https://jobs.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebOb...tionID=2510614

ambush · Jan 28, 2006, 11:30 PM

I'm not qualified for that job.

goMac · Jan 29, 2006, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Not Quartz Composer; Quartz Compositor. They rewrote it to be GPU-accelerated like Vista's windowing system years ago.

The difference is that Quartz Compositor composites on the CPU and then renders via the GPU. Avalon composites entirely on the GPU.

Quartz Extreme 2D was supposed to fix this, as all the bitmap images the window server was trying to draw where uploaded into video memory onto the GPU, and then composited on the GPU.

As an example, Quartz cannot currently freely composite OpenGL because the OpenGL is actually rendered after the compositing stage. Vista fixes this issue.

Tomchu · Jan 29, 2006, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by chabig

You seem to forget that Vista isn't shipping yet, while OS X first shipped 6 years ago. Let's wait until Vista ships to see exactly what Microsoft has implemented. Then we'll compare it to what Apple is shipping.

Chris

Who cares if it's not shipping yet? Everything that's been discussed about it so far already points to it being way ahead of OS X's system. It's not like there aren't betas floating around everywhere you look, either.

As for you, Tetenal ... denial is a powerful tool. Does Steve's reality-distortion field have you in its grip?