Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > iPhone, iPad & iPod > Next "iPod killer" coming up for Xmas - this time from M$ ;)

Next "iPod killer" coming up for Xmas - this time from M$ ;)
Thread Tools
Simon
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: in front of my Mac
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 6, 2006, 04:12 AM
 
So, M$ in its infinite wisdom and foresight decided they need to do it right themselves because none of the WMP playing devices could compete with the iPod.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...nnc&refer=home

Supposedly the new MS device will support wireless downloads, have a large ("better than the iPod's") screen for video display and there's also supposed to be some kind of MS iTunes to go with it. All right in time for the Xmas buying season.

As always M$ is late to the party and I'm rather confident they will - as often in the past - over promise and under deliver.

Nevertheless I welcome their competition. They're slow and rarely thorough, but they're powerful and have a lot of business influence which makes me believe they are the kind of competitor Apple needs. It's not like the iPod couldn't use improvement, but up to now, who was there to force Apple to actually do it? Personally, I hope Apple will consider

• opening up the iPod to as many audio formats as possible (be liberal in what you accept, be conservative in what you distribute); AAC and AL are fine with me for the iTMS, but when it comes to playback, I want the iPod to playback everything I throw at it. That includes Ogg Vorbis, WMA, etc. no matter how good or bad those codecs are the consumer shouldn't need to care about the format of a song he just wants to listen to

• wireless capabilities - an APX capable iPod would be very nice

• video - more screen space, less bezel - full screen across the front with controls either on the side or in software (touch-screen) comes to mind

• movies - I'd love to be able to d/l movies from the iTMS instead of buying DVDs

• battery time - more is always better

• size/weight - the nano's size is fine but its capacity is low; the iPod has a nice capacity but IMHO it's just to big (although I find the 30GB version's thickness OK)

M$ certainly won't deliver all of that and Apple won't implement all of it either, but if there's one thing I like about M$ entering the market it's that it will hopefully make sure Apple stays alert and innovative. I'm looking forward to buying my next and by then certainly improved iPod.
     
slugslugslug
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 6, 2006, 09:37 AM
 
This might be something to worry about, if they plan on having on-device song sales and they're building up an end-to-end music store that integrates with it. I agree, though, that having some competition should certainly spur Apple to do something really cool with the iPod line.

I wouldn't actually care that much if an iPod killer did some real damage to the Apple's dominance, but for the fact that no competitors seem to care about supporting Mac users.
     
slugslugslug
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 6, 2006, 02:53 PM
 
The really interesting thing is what Engadget learned from a supposedly reliable source: that Microsoft will give iTMS users new versions of all the tracks they've already purchased in the MS store's format. That'd be a pretty good incentive for folks who have a lot invested in iTMS tracks. But said folks would still have to want to give up their iPods.
     
Simon  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: in front of my Mac
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 6, 2006, 04:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by slugslugslug
The really interesting thing is what Engadget learned from a supposedly reliable source: that Microsoft will give iTMS users new versions of all the tracks they've already purchased in the MS store's format. That'd be a pretty good incentive for folks who have a lot invested in iTMS tracks. But said folks would still have to want to give up their iPods.
Good point.

But what incentive would users have to go through that hassle? Only a clearly superior device would offer them the slightest reason to do that. OTOH what reason do the record companies have to sponsor such a deal? Or is MS actually paying for it? Strong subsidizing just like the original Xbox - is that their plan? How original.
     
slugslugslug
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 6, 2006, 05:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
Good point.

But what incentive would users have to go through that hassle? Only a clearly superior device would offer them the slightest reason to do that. OTOH what reason do the record companies have to sponsor such a deal? Or is MS actually paying for it? Strong subsidizing just like the original Xbox - is that their plan? How original.
I'm not sure if "Good point" refers to the real threat of direct-to-device downloads, or to the final sentence, which is basically reflected by your next 2. The Windows Media Pod Personal Edition Portable needs to both kick ass and easily play or convert whatever iPod users have in their libraries in order for Microsoft to really get a lot of switchers.

But yeah, according to the Engadget story, Microsoft is going to foot the bill for users' getting the rights (again) to the songs they bought, in the PlaysForSure format.

In other news, some Piper Jaffray analyst believes Apple will stay on its toes, predicting a WiFi-enabled iPod this fall as well. That's near the top of MacNN and AppleInsider right now, so I'll remain too lazy to link..
     
porieux
Baninated
Join Date: Mar 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 6, 2006, 05:59 PM
 
...
( Last edited by porieux; Oct 2, 2006 at 07:26 AM. )
     
Simon  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: in front of my Mac
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 7, 2006, 03:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by slugslugslug
But yeah, according to the Engadget story, Microsoft is going to foot the bill for users' getting the rights (again) to the songs they bought, in the PlaysForSure format.
Unfortunately that sounds like a typical M$ strong-arm approach. And as porieux already indicated, is this entirely legal? Anti-trust?

I hope they actually also put Apple under pressure from a technical perspective and not just try to 'buy' their way into the market. I'd like to see Apple fight a technical battle and not a legal one.
     
Buckaroo
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2002
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 8, 2006, 02:09 PM
 
M$ is going to lose on this one. Talk about POP UP ads. This thing is going to SUCK.

One is that the device will contain a sensor that picks up advertisements from an "Ad-Node" that beams an ad to your player. If you watch the ad, you'll receive a bonus of some kind in the form of a discount coupon or voucher.
     
Buckaroo
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2002
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 8, 2006, 02:25 PM
 
Besides, if anyone had a chance of killing the iPod, don't you think Sony's PSP would have done it? You can play movies, music, and games on one device. Better yet, you can put your songs on little 2 or 4 gb flash memory cards and switch from one flash memory card to another. You never run out of space.

I believe PSP may also have some wireless capability. I'm not sure exactly what it can do, but I suspect that the WiFi capability is only for game play.
     
msuper69
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Columbus, OH
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 9, 2006, 12:01 AM
 
Won't happen.

It will be fugly.

It will require WMA.

It will suck.

It will fail.
HyperNova Software, LLC
Check out SuperScanner! for the iPad
     
Simon  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: in front of my Mac
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 9, 2006, 03:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by msuper69
It will be fugly.
Most PCs are fugly. Windows UI is certainly fugly.

It will require WMA.
Windows relies on many proprietary formats.

It will suck.
Windows sucks too, but it's still the absolute market leader. And there's nothing in sight that's going to change that within the, let's say, next 5 years.

It will fail.
I'm not suggesting it will be a success just because M$ is behind it, but I do hope Apple has another attitude towards the issue than those points suggested. The best way to lose market share is to be ignorant, arrogant and become comfortable. If this device actually ever materializes as real hardware and it does roughly what the articles claim, I hope Apple will take a good look.
     
chabig
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 9, 2006, 03:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by slugslugslug
according to the Engadget story, Microsoft is going to foot the bill for users' getting the rights (again) to the songs they bought, in the PlaysForSure format.
This is no big deal. Microsoft's music store is rental based. So you can download as many songs as you want (while you continue to pay the rent). All they're going to do is download the same songs you already own. Now you have 2 copies of all your music, and it all goes away when you stop paying.

Chris
     
Simon  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: in front of my Mac
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 9, 2006, 03:47 AM
 
Are they only going to offer a rental service? That does of course suck. No serious match for Apple's ownership scheme.

Side thought: Although, in principle, since Apple can change the DRM terms at any time to whatever they like (like reducing the amount of CD burns or reducing the amount of computers you can use to listen to your files) I'm wondering if rental is not a more appropriate scheme. I hate the idea of having to pay for my files once a month and losing everything as soon as I don't pay, but OTOH we're not really owning the protected AACs either. If Apple changes the DRM terms, we can't do anything against it (apart of course form stopping to update iTunes, iPod firmware and possible OS X which is of course not really a solution).
     
plastiqueusa
Forum Regular
Join Date: Sep 2004
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 9, 2006, 04:43 AM
 
I'm pretty sure the speculation is that it'll be a pay-based store--otherwise the whole free downloading of purchased iTunes tracks scheme wouldn't make any sense.
     
Buckaroo
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2002
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 10, 2006, 01:08 AM
 
The only way that M$ can kill the iPod is if they give the M$ version away for $10 each. Bill Gates is willing to start giving away his fortune earlier that we expected.
     
Simon  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: in front of my Mac
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 22, 2006, 04:02 AM
 
So, they seem to now officially ackowledge the service dubbed "Zune".

There's even a really cheesy website http://www.comingzune.com

I found two reports on the original report (WSJ, need passwd to read):
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1906
http://www.macnn.com/articles/06/07/...n.ipod.itunes/
     
AC Rempt
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 22, 2006, 04:28 AM
 
What guarantees that they will have al the songs that iTunes carries in the first place? Certainly there will be certain artists they will either not be able to carry due to contract issues or won't bother to carry due to obscurity. For instance, I have the Pen Price 3 on my iPod, downloaded from iTunes. M$ gonna carry them? Or the Go-Nuts? Or the Woggles?
     
hickey
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2005
Location: West LA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 22, 2006, 05:10 AM
 
Id like to see the ipod killer have some sort of ipod jamming device built in, kind of like those cell phone jammers you can buy. That way it will be a true killer.
     
Simon  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: in front of my Mac
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 22, 2006, 03:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by hickey
Id like to see the ipod killer have some sort of ipod jamming device built in, kind of like those cell phone jammers you can buy. That way it will be a true killer.
iPod remote destruction. Awesome idea!

Next time some kid on the subway is blasting off some hip hop on full volume so I have to listen to his garbage even though I'm five yards further down the aisle his iPod's history.
     
imitchellg5
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Washington + Colorado
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 22, 2006, 03:35 PM
 
That stupid Coming Zune website is the dumbest thing I have ever seen.
     
Simon  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: in front of my Mac
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 22, 2006, 03:49 PM
 
It's pretty ridiculous indeed.
     
itguy05
Forum Regular
Join Date: Apr 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 22, 2006, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
Side thought: Although, in principle, since Apple can change the DRM terms at any time to whatever they like (like reducing the amount of CD burns or reducing the amount of computers you can use to listen to your files) I'm wondering if rental is not a more appropriate scheme. I hate the idea of having to pay for my files once a month and losing everything as soon as I don't pay, but OTOH we're not really owning the protected AACs either. If Apple changes the DRM terms, we can't do anything against it (apart of course form stopping to update iTunes, iPod firmware and possible OS X which is of course not really a solution).
All they have to allow is 1 burn to CD and you're set. Burn to CD and then reimport. DRM-Free tracks. Then Apple could change the terms to whatever and you can laugh in their face!
     
Simon  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: in front of my Mac
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 22, 2006, 05:20 PM
 
True, but (at least in theory) there's no guarantee they will always allow you to burn to audio CD at all.
     
hickey
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2005
Location: West LA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 22, 2006, 06:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
iPod remote destruction. Awesome idea!

Next time some kid on the subway is blasting off some hip hop on full volume so I have to listen to his garbage even though I'm five yards further down the aisle his iPod's history.
Now we're Thinking Different
     
imitchellg5
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Washington + Colorado
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 22, 2006, 06:30 PM
 
Ooooo good call
     
itguy05
Forum Regular
Join Date: Apr 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 22, 2006, 10:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
True, but (at least in theory) there's no guarantee they will always allow you to burn to audio CD at all.
I don't think it will come to that as that's a major selling point of the iTMS. However, just to be safe, I burn them all to an audio CD just in case.
     
Helmling
Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2006, 02:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
Unfortunately that sounds like a typical M$ strong-arm approach. And as porieux already indicated, is this entirely legal? Anti-trust?

I hope they actually also put Apple under pressure from a technical perspective and not just try to 'buy' their way into the market. I'd like to see Apple fight a technical battle and not a legal one.
I think Apple's already fighting a technical battle, but against their own standards. The iPod has to be certain things--simple, elegant, cool--and we'd have already seen an iPod phone or the full screen iPod if they could technically make those things happen while maintaining the mystique of the iPod.
     
Simon  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: in front of my Mac
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2006, 04:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by itguy05
However, just to be safe, I burn them all to an audio CD just in case.
Yeah, I'm not as paranoid as it may sound in this thread so i don't burn all of my iTMS songs to audio CD, but if you want to play it really safe, you could do that.
     
Simon  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: in front of my Mac
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 23, 2006, 04:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling
I think Apple's already fighting a technical battle, but against their own standards. The iPod has to be certain things--simple, elegant, cool--and we'd have already seen an iPod phone or the full screen iPod if they could technically make those things happen while maintaining the mystique of the iPod.
You're certainly right about that, but I believe many customers see this not as a battle, but simply as what they expect from an iPod. Which is actually a good thing. I want every iPod to be simple, elegant, cool.

OTOH I believe Apple also needs to address other issues that might have been somewhat neglected in the past: Battery life, screen size, audio format openness, weight, etc. Obviously some of those are more difficult to improve with the original boundary conditions simple, elegant, cool. Nevertheless, some serious technical competition might just be the kick in the pants Apple needs to get back to some serious work at the drawing table. Of course I'm not trying to implicate they aren't working on the iPod now, but all these success reports about market share and Apple's growth, plus the optimistic attitude on Wall Street might be, well umm, let's say 'distractive'.
     
Velocity211
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Northern VA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 25, 2006, 11:11 PM
 
Apple's probably gonna release the 6th gen iPod to compete with M$.
iMac 24" | Core 2 Extreme 2.8GHz | 4GB RAM | 500GB HD
PowerBook G4 15" HR | 1.67GHz | 2GB RAM | 100GB HD
R.I.P 1995 Toyota Supra NA-T
     
Simon  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: in front of my Mac
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 26, 2006, 04:00 AM
 
This morning I was reading a Seattle Times article about a 'tech analyst' called Enderle who reported on Zune and the iTMS-like service that goes with it.

Enderle says:
"Where Apple, I think to a certain extent, focused on the user, Microsoft is taking a different approach and really focusing on the artist and trying to create a system that would best allow that artist to speak to their fans."
That got me wondering. In what kind of a screwed up market are we when the focus of a product or service is not on the consumer? If you're trying to sell something to millions of people, why would you give a flying crap about anything else than the demand of those people? This sounds so typically MS - who cares about how people want to listen to music? Let's ask the labels and the bands how they would like to sell and then force that down people's throats. After all, we're MS, we can do that.

And who the heck is this Enderle moron anyway? CARS has a very nice answer to that one.
     
iZilla_Pod
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Jul 2006
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 28, 2006, 03:12 AM
 
Hopefully this will drive Apple's prices down to compete with Microsoft and its competitors. It might also force them to come out with something like the new touch-screen video ipod everyone has heard rumors about.
     
fisherKing
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: brooklyn ny
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 28, 2006, 12:07 PM
 
MS knows exactly what it's doing. they know, in the short term, they will not knock the ipod out the box; they say they're in it for the long haul (they keep saying this!); thats their strength, having the resource$ to stay with it...

will be interesting to see where this all is in 3 or 4 years...but...

i'm counting on apple to do it's 'apple' thing, and innovate, stay ahead of the pack, in a smart and stylish way...
"At first, there was Nothing. Then Nothing inverted itself and became Something.
And that is what you all are: inverted Nothings...with potential" (Sun Ra)
     
Ryan1524
Senior User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Canada GTA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 31, 2006, 11:35 PM
 
I don't think we should be laughing at this at all. MS has had a long time to sit and watch who succeeds and who fails. Granted it's been mostly Apple succeeding and everybody else floundering, but they might just found that little loophole or trick in Apple's strategy that they can take advantage of. MS has much much more money and capability to flood the market with brainwashing and their network is very large. They can probably market this along with every single Windows carrying PC sold out there. Imagine people who have no idea how this all works, or are just getting into it, they might just use this whole package deal. Think of the people who don't care what iTunes is, or what the different file formats are, and simply want to listen to some music or watch video. I'm talking about people who simply runs Windows Media Player without a second thought.

If Apple doesn't take this seriously, history might be repeated. MS has enough people, money and experience to do this. Think about the XBOX - that's quite a success I'd say, and of course, the original Macintosh getting completely beaten by Windows clones.
Ryan
     
porieux
Baninated
Join Date: Mar 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 31, 2006, 11:42 PM
 
...
( Last edited by porieux; Oct 2, 2006 at 06:46 AM. )
     
chabig
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 1, 2006, 01:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Ryan1524
They can probably market this along with every single Windows carrying PC sold out there.
I don't think they could get away with that. It would be an abuse of their Windows monopoly.

Chris
     
Googer-Giger
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Long Island
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 1, 2006, 11:45 AM
 
Sure, we all say: bah, no one else has come close to apple's dominance in the music player and online software, we may even think it a little bit to. But face it, a lot of us are a little afraid that M$ will actually come out with something that attracts those noobs at windows.

And by the way, a lot more people like PS2 than xbox.
I miss the days of the G5 and XPS Pentium 4 running side by side as high-end machines.
     
Simon  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: in front of my Mac
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 26, 2006, 06:32 AM
 
First pics of Zune have appeared. Doesn't look too revolutionary to me.

AppleInsider | Clunky-looking Microsoft Zune player revealed in filing
     
sushiism
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 26, 2006, 08:29 AM
 
"Once Zune's wireless capabilities are enabled, users will be able to share photos and promotional copies of songs, albums and playlists from other Pyxis users"

Great PROMOTIONAL SONGS! What a killer feature.
I can't figure out exactly how they want you to pronounce Pyxis. Pixis? Pysis?

I love how the design of it makes it look like a cheap knockoff of the iPod, come on MS a circle under the screen are you idiots?
     
zubro
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 26, 2006, 10:56 AM
 
I have just found a bit more / Zune:
MacBidouille.com : Bidouille hardware sur Mac

It says it will be made by Toshiba, will have a 30 HDD, and a 3" screen.

it also reports some ±equal stuff there:

Listening Post
( Last edited by zubro; Aug 26, 2006 at 01:34 PM. )
     
   
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:47 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,