[Cody Dawg]

Link



Seriously, I find this a bit ridiculous. What's next? A green habit for nuns who go to the hospital?

[Big Mac]

Burka burka.

[Sayf-Allah]

It's a shame that some Muslim communities still believe you are forced to dress that way according to Islam.

But it is good that hospitals make sure some (IMO ignorant) people don't shy away from getting treatment.

[Dakar]

Looks like the radioactive suit Marty wore in Back to the Future.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

But it is good that hospitals make sure some (IMO ignorant) people don't shy away from getting treatment.

Any precedent for the opposite?

V

[Cody Dawg]

What is amazing is that there is a religion out there that is actually impressing upon it's women followers that they had better cover up - even if ill or dying.

[Dakar]

In olden times a glimpse of stocking was looked upon as something shocking, now heaven knows, anything goes.

[Cody Dawg]

The last thing I worry about if I am sick enough to be at a hospital is what I look like.

Let's see...

When I was there recently I was wearing old sweat pants and my husband's oversized torn tee-shirt that he works out in, my hair was greasy, and I was barfing into a bucket.

Yeah, I really cared about how I looked.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

What is amazing is that there is a religion out there that is actually impressing upon it's women followers that they had better cover up - even if ill or dying.

I agree:

But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved.

For if a woman does not have her head veiled, she may as well have her hair cut off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should wear a veil.

A man, on the other hand, should not cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;

nor was man created for woman, but woman for man;

for this reason a woman should have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels.

Woman is not independent of man or man of woman in the Lord.

.....

Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled?

Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears his hair long it is a disgrace to him,

whereas if a woman has long hair it is her glory, because long hair has been given (her) for a covering?

[nonhuman]

I like how people pretend Islam is the only religion that tells people how to dress. There's more than enough of that in Christianity and Judaism as well, and right here in the US too!

[Mark Larr]

Judaism doesn't doesn't execute you for your fashion statement.

Try again.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

I like how people pretend Islam is the only religion that tells people how to dress. There's more than enough of that in Christianity and Judaism as well, and right here in the US too!

Yeah, nonhuman, explain that one to me - give me an instance of a Jewish sect dictating style of dress.

[ink]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Yeah, nonhuman, explain that one to me - give me an instance of a Jewish sect dictating style of dress.

Not sure about Jewish examples, but I know Mormons who do not remove their garments, even for showering. Most Mormons are much more realistic about the whole thing, though (just as most Muslims don't wear Burkas....)

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Yeah, nonhuman, explain that one to me - give me an instance of a Jewish sect dictating style of dress.

Uh, Hasidim, maybe? You know, with the payoth, tzitzit, and various headgear for men. Less of this for Jewish women, but there are some requirements in some sects generally in the same vein as the more moderate Muslim sects.

And if you've ever been to the midwest (or sat at a gate in an airport next to the gate of a flight going to MSP) you've seen plenty of women who cover their hair with bonnets and dress very modestly for their (Christian) religion.

[Big Mac]

Chabad, which is the largest Hasidic branch by far, does not mandate that congregants wear Hasidic garb. Far from it. Aside from that, there are some small, insular Hasidic sects that are likely more conformist, but even then it's not likely that a Jew wanting to pray with them would be excluded from such a group. This thread is talking about being compelled to dress a certain way, not simply being encouraged or influenced by group standards.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Chabad, which is the largest Hasidic branch by far, does not mandate that congregants wear Hasidic garb. Far from it. Aside from that, there are some small, insular Hasidic sects that are likely more conformist, but even then it's not likely that a Jew wanting to pray with them would be excluded from such a group. This thread is talking about being compelled to dress a certain way, not simply being encouraged or influenced by group standards.

Yes, but do any Hasidic branches mandate Hasidic dress? I'm sure the majority don't, but neither do the majority of Muslim sects.

[Nicko]

Well what is the big deal? If a patient comes into a hospital and their religion dictates they should wear one of these, what is the problem? This is a good example of tolerance.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

Yes, but do any Hasidic branches mandate Hasidic dress? I'm sure the majority don't, but neither do the majority of Muslim sects.

I'm pretty sure there is an Islamic dress code for women in Iran (as one counter example), and I bet Iran isn't the only Islamic theocracy to have such a code. We know the Taliban did.

[hatim]

People here are just full of hatred towards Islam. Why should you care what a government tells its people to do? In western culture women are nothing but sex symbols. Just becuase you thing something is right or wrong does not make it so.

[Big Mac]

We don't hate your religion, hatim. We just think a predominant amount of terrorism in the world comes from it, and we reject those who wish to condone, whitewash or apologize for Islamic barbarity.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I'm pretty sure there is an Islamic dress code for women in Iran (as one counter example), and I bet Iran isn't the only Islamic theocracy to have such a code. We know the Taliban did.

Well if it's mandated by the government that's slightly different. I'm definitely a huge proponent of religion and government not mixing. However if a religion is saying that it's members have to dress a certain way what's wrong with that? How is it different from your parents forcing you to dress a certain way? If you don't like it, leave. If you don't like it, but believe that you'll go to hell or be otherwise punished for leaving then it's up to you to make the choice of whether or not it's worth it.

Now if you were to leave your religion only to have the people who stayed hunt you down and beat/kill you for doing so, then I definitely have a problem with it, but that's a problem with the people not the religion.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Chabad, which is the largest Hasidic branch by far, does not mandate that congregants wear Hasidic garb. Far from it. Aside from that, there are some small, insular Hasidic sects that are likely more conformist, but even then it's not likely that a Jew wanting to pray with them would be excluded from such a group. This thread is talking about being compelled to dress a certain way, not simply being encouraged or influenced by group standards.

Who compelled anyone to dress in Burqas?


(clarification: Which religion?)

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Nicko

Well what is the big deal? If a patient comes into a hospital and their religion dictates they should wear one of these, what is the problem? This is a good example of tolerance.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I'm pretty sure there is an Islamic dress code for women in Iran (as one counter example), and I bet Iran isn't the only Islamic theocracy to have such a code. We know the Taliban did.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ism_Dress.html

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

We don't hate your religion, hatim. We just think a predominant amount of terrorism in the world comes from it, and we reject those who wish to condone, whitewash or apologize for Islamic barbarity.

I think the problem is that people recently tend to single out Islamic barbarity and seem to ignore the barbarity of non-Muslims. That makes it seem, particularly to Muslims, that you're attacking only Islam, which, understandably, is going to make Muslims feel defensive about their faith. It's the exact same phenomenon that occurs on this forum and others like it all the time in flamewars.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by hatim

In western culture women are nothing but sex symbols.

How come our birth rate is lower then? How come western women give birth less?

There is a difference between feeling and looking beautiful (modern cultures) and being used by men for nothing but banging and breeding (backwards cultures).

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Yeah, nonhuman, explain that one to me - give me an instance of a Jewish sect dictating style of dress.

Umm, how about the Hasidim?

As for Christians, how about the Amish or the Mennonnites?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Umm, how about the Hasidim?

Already discussed above.

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Women in Judaism: Dress

Yeah, that's a standard. Orthodox Jewish women are not compelled to dress in Orthodox fashion.

But, off-topic, Sayf, that's a pretty damn hateful signature. You're really showing just how peaceful you are with sentiments like those.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

How come our birth rate is lower then? How come western women give birth less?

Any semi-intelligent person wouldn't need to ask this question.

There is a difference between feeling and looking beautiful (modern cultures) and being used by men for nothing but banging and breeding (backwards cultures).

Who are those "modern cultures" and whom are those "backward cultures"?

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Yeah, that's a standard. Orthodox Jewish women are not compelled to dress in Orthodox fashion.

Have the goal-posts switched as so often before with you guys? Are we still talking about what the religion says or are we now talking about what people say?

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Have the goal-posts switched as so often before with you guys? Are we still talking about what the religion says or are we now talking about what people say?

Sadly most people don't really distinguish between the two.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Have the goal-posts switched as so often before with you guys? Are we still talking about what the religion says or are we now talking about what people say?

You're making very little sense, Sayf. I haven't changed the standard. To me, this thread is about Islamic women (in particular) being compelled to dress in a certain fashion. Mind you I'm not saying all Muslim women, but I am saying Muslim women in many large countries (such as Iran). You cannot find a parallel to that in Judaism, at least.

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Her hands and eyes are still showing! KILL HER!

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

You're making very little sense, Sayf. I haven't changed the standard. To me, this thread is about Islamic women (in particular) being compelled to dress in a certain fashion. Mind you I'm not saying all Muslim women, but I am saying Muslim women in many large countries (such as Iran). You cannot find a parallel to that in Judaism, at least.

Well, Cody mentioned (in her second post) that she thought it was amazing that there is a religion that "is actually impressing upon it's women followers that they had better cover up - even if ill or dying."

So far I've shown that Christianity does that, no one has commented on it nor condemned Christians for it. Hypocrisy? You bet.

I've also shown (although not as well admittedly) that Judaism does that. No one has condemned Judaism for it. Hypocrisy? You bet.

No one has yet shown where Islam does that yet Islam is being bashed here. Hypocrisy? You bet.


And perhaps before you go on to have you next jab at Islam you should see my first post.

[Cody Dawg]

What Christians tell people that they'd better cover up?

NONE.

Not one.

You can't label the Amish as having a dress code. THEY DO NOT.

How do I know that?

One of my best friends lives in Sarasota Florida in an Amish community there - which is where I have a house.

And guess what? Their only "dress code" is that their clothes are usually made by hand, but there is no dress code - they wear what they want. If she went out in the street in a mini-dress and halter top no one would "do" anything to her.

There is NO Christian religion that DEMANDS that women cover up in huge sacks with only slits for their eyes, showing.

Mark Larr

Judaism doesn't doesn't execute you for your fashion statement.

Try again.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by hatim

People here are just full of hatred towards Islam. Why should you care what a government tells its people to do? In western culture women are nothing but sex symbols. Just becuase you thing something is right or wrong does not make it so.

Here ya go.
Islam is fun for women.

CENTENNIAL, Colorado (AP) -- A man convicted of sexually assaulting an Indonesian housekeeper and keeping her virtually as a slave was sentenced Thursday to 27 years to life in prison.

Homaidan Al-Turki, 37, denied the charges and blamed anti-Muslim prejudice for the case against him. He said prosecutors persuaded the housekeeper to accuse him after they failed to build a case that he was a terrorist.

Al-Turki, a citizen of Saudi Arabia who lived in the Denver suburb of Aurora, was convicted June 30 of unlawful sexual contact by use of force, theft and extortion, all felonies, and misdemeanor counts of false imprisonment and conspiracy to commit false imprisonment.

Defense attorney John Richilano said he would appeal the convictions.

Prosecutors and FBI agents said Al-Turki and his wife, Sarah Khonaizan, brought the now 24-year-old woman to Colorado to care for their five children and to cook and clean for the family. An affidavit said she spent four years with the family, sleeping on a mattress on the basement floor and getting paid less than $2 a day.

Al-Turki said he treated the woman the same way any observant Muslim family would treat a daughter.

"Your honor, I am not here to apologize, for I cannot apologize for things I did not do and for crimes I did not commit," he told the judge. "The state has criminalized these basic Muslim behaviors. Attacking traditional Muslim behaviors was the focal point of the prosecution."

Al-Turki said he has been under investigation as a suspected terrorist since 1995 but has never been charged with the crime.

"I am not a terrorist and I don't advocate terrorism," he said.

Prosecutors denied Al-Turki was targeted because he was Muslim or that the woman's allegations were trumped up. Prosecutor Natalie Decker said the evidence was overwhelming.

The Associated Press is not identifying the woman because of the sexual nature of the charges.

Al-Turki, a linguist who worked at a Denver publishing and translating company, also faces trial in federal court in October on charges of forced labor, document servitude and harboring an illegal immigrant.

In April, he and Khonaizan agreed to pay the nanny about $64,000 in wages to settle a Labor Department lawsuit. He could also face restitution payments in the state case. The judge said he would rule on that later.

Khonaizan pleaded guilty to a federal immigration charge and a state theft charge. She was sentenced to home detention and probation in the federal case and two months in jail in the state case. Her attorney, Forrest Lewis, has said she wants to return to Saudi Arabia and will not fight deportation.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Here ya go.
Islam is fun for women.

One idiot's interpretation of the Koran does not Islam make.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

What Christians tell people that they'd better cover up?

NONE.

Not one.

You can't label the Amish as having a dress code. THEY DO NOT.

How do I know that?

One of my best friends lives in Sarasota Florida in an Amish community there - which is where I have a house.

And guess what? Their only "dress code" is that their clothes are usually made by hand, but there is no dress code - they wear what they want. If she went out in the street in a mini-dress and halter top no one would "do" anything to her.

There is NO Christian religion that DEMANDS that women cover up in huge sacks with only slits for their eyes, showing.

Love this. You made the claim that it "is amazing is that there is a religion out there that is actually impressing upon it's women followers that they had better cover up - even if ill or dying."

I quoted the Bible where it says very specifically what the dress code is for Christian women.

You either don't read it or just ignore it and shift the goal-posts as usual and begin talking about people tell other to do.

You couldn't argue yourself out of a wet paper bag.

Bring on the next hate-filled post. I'm not expecting anything less from you.

[Cody Dawg]

I don't see any biblical quotes from you.

But here's the important part:

My fellow Christians won't stone me or condemn me to die when I don't follow what the Bible says as far as a dress code.

Furthermore, my religion doesn't make me cover up when I'm flying into my Christian country the way that Muslim countries do.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

What Christians tell people that they'd better cover up?

NONE.

Not one.

LIAR.

You've never been to a Spanish Catholic church. You will NOT get in unless your shoulders are covered, and forget about that miniskirt.

YES, THEY HAVE A DRESS CODE EVEN FOR TOURISTS.

Sorry about the caps, Cody, but asserting yourself with such vehemence and being so totally wrong about it is just incredibly dumb.

I do realize you weren't actually lying, just ignorant and stupid.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I don't see any biblical quotes from you.

But here's the important part:

My fellow Christians won't stone me or condemn me to die when I don't follow what the Bible says as far as a dress code.

Furthermore, my religion doesn't make me cover up when I'm flying into my Christian country the way that Muslim countries do.

The second post I made in this thread.

So if that's the important part then why did you say what you said in your second post? Brain-fart or just general ignorance?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I don't see any biblical quotes from you.

Maybe you're just NOT FAMILIAR ENOUGH WITH THE BIBLE to recognize Corinthians when it's quoted at you.

What he posted was

But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved.

For if a woman does not have her head veiled, she may as well have her hair cut off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should wear a veil.

A man, on the other hand, should not cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;

nor was man created for woman, but woman for man;

for this reason a woman should have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels.

Woman is not independent of man or man of woman in the Lord.

.....

Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled?

Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears his hair long it is a disgrace to him,

whereas if a woman has long hair it is her glory, because long hair has been given (her) for a covering?

When you open your mouth too wide, Cody, you should take extra care that your brain doesn't fall out.

[Cody Dawg]

You're a liar analogika - I've been to ITALIAN Catholic churches AND Spanish Catholic churches (gasp! In Spain, even!) and I got in just fine, so I guess YOU'RE the idiot. Want me to say some Hail Marys for you to prove that I know the Latin Mass? Been there done that.



The only time I was ever FORCED to wear any particular clothing was when I was in Mombasa in East Africa and I was told that the local Muslim men would spit on me and throw rocks on me if I didn't cover up my khakis shorts and bare legs so they told me that I should go windsurfing for the day instead of trying to get any work done (I was there volunteering my time to help medically indigent people in East Africa with WHO.)

I had a great day windsurfing.



My POINT that I made is that my fellow Catholics aren't going to attack me or lock me up or kill me because I don't adhere to a dress code interpreted by men.

Just to let you know, in this country women:

1. Cut their hair off (and even shave their heads) and
2. Don't cover up - not even to go to church even if that's a Catholic church.



Now have a nice day, little boy.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Well, Cody mentioned (in her second post) that she thought it was amazing that there is a religion that "is actually impressing upon it's women followers that they had better cover up - even if ill or dying."

So far I've shown that Christianity does that, no one has commented on it nor condemned Christians for it. Hypocrisy? You bet.

I've also shown (although not as well admittedly) that Judaism does that. No one has condemned Judaism for it. Hypocrisy? You bet.

But once again you're wrong - Judaism does not make any such demand. There is a conventional form of dress for Orthodox women, but many Orthodox women do not dress in that style; they do not suffer as a result of that lack of conformity. There is no law in Judaism mandating a particular form of attire. The closest thing one could cite as a law would be the concept of modesty in clothing. The link you provided attests to the fact that there are conventional styles based on custom that are observed on a volitional basis. There is no enforcement of dress in the Jewish world like there is in the Islamic world. I don't know how many times this needs to be explained. Furthermore, Judaism would most definitely never insist that an asthetic concern be observed over the interest of saving a life.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

You're a liar analogika - I've been to ITALIAN Catholic churches AND Spanish Catholic churches and I got in just fine, so I guess YOU'RE the idiot.

Sorry analogika but it's quite clear she's lying. But that doesn't exclude the other comments you made.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Furthermore, Judaism would most definitely never insist that an asthetic concern be observed over the interest of saving a life.

Only time people go to hospitals is to save their lives? Interesting, because here in the north people actually go to hospitals for check-ups and general "maintenance".


But do keep shifting the goal-posts.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Only time people go to hospitals is to save their lives? Interesting, because here in the north people actually go to hospitals for check-ups and general "maintenance".

No one said that except for you, Sayf. I referred to the concern of saving a life because of what you quoted and wrote in response to Cody Dawg. The funny thing is, you put words in people's mouths and twist their statements, and then you accuse them of shifting goal posts.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Nicko

Well what is the big deal? If a patient comes into a hospital and their religion dictates they should wear one of these, what is the problem?

The problem is that last week a report came out saying that patients all over the country are being neglected (i.e. going hungry) because nurses don't have enough time. So we don't have enough money for nurses but some bright spark (who's probably sitting on his arse being paid 3x a nurse's wages) has decided we have enough money for these.

If the people who want to wear these pay for them themselves, then no problem.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

No one said that except for you, Sayf. You put words in people's mouths and twist their statements, and then you accuse them of shifting goal posts.

Really? Then what did you mean?

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Furthermore, Judaism would most definitely never insist that an asthetic concern be observed over the interest of saving a life.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Doofy

The problem is that last week a report came out saying that patients all over the country are being neglected (i.e. going hungry) because nurses don't have enough time. So we don't have enough money for nurses but some bright spark (who's probably sitting on his arse being paid 3x a nurse's wages) has decided we have enough money for these.

If the people who want to wear these pay for them themselves, then no problem.

I kind of agree but why not apply the same for getting food at the hospital?




And if UK hospitals are having their nurses handle the food distribution there's no wonder the quality of care is suffering in the UK.