[Dark Helmet]

"The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children."

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbo...lestation.html

With all this garbage about the gay pedophile Foley and certain members here putting all gay people on the same level I thought this might be important.

(And for the record what Foley did was bad but "pedophile" means sexual activities with pre-pubecents, not dirty IM's with a 16 year old and no contact)

[BRussell]

Here's the problem as I see it:

Almost all true pedophiles (as opposed to run-of-the-mill child molesters) do prefer boys. Think Michael Jackson. Are they gay? Their "orientation" is young boys. They don't like adult men, or women.

On the other hand, non-pedophile, run-of-the-mill child molesters are genuinely heterosexual (they have sex with adult women) but sometimes victimize children, and their victims are usually girls. And the vast majority of child molesters are the latter type, the non-pedophiles. They're some uncle or dad who gets drunk and molests a girl. True Michael Jackson-style pedophiles are much less common.

[subego]

It kind of bugs me that the people who continue to call Mark Foley a pedophile at this point are all people who should really know better.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

Here's the problem as I see it:

Almost all true pedophiles (as opposed to run-of-the-mill child molesters) do prefer boys. Think Michael Jackson. Are they gay? Their "orientation" is young boys. They don't like adult men, or women.

On the other hand, non-pedophile, run-of-the-mill child molesters are genuinely heterosexual (they have sex with adult women) but sometimes victimize children, and their victims are usually girls. And the vast majority of child molesters are the latter type, the non-pedophiles. They're some uncle or dad who gets drunk and molests a girl. True Michael Jackson-style pedophiles are much less common.

Aren't Pedophiles and child molesters essentially the same? They are both adults, and both have sexual experiences with underage children. What is different?

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by subego 

It kind of bugs me that the people who continue to call Mark Foley a pedophile at this point are all people who should really know better.

Yeah there needs to be a term for people into late teeners, because pedophile is a gross mischaracterization, IMO.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by subego 

It kind of bugs me that the people who continue to call Mark Foley a pedophile at this point are all people who should really know better.

Maybe he is but he just didn't have access to kids that young. I think pages have to be at least 16. Those could have been as close as he could get to his preferred age. (Not saying that's a sure thing, just that it's possible.)

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

And for the record what Foley did was bad but "pedophile" means sexual activities with pre-pubecents

Actually, it just means somebody who has sex with children. You might define "child" as meaning "prepubescent," but some girls go through puberty quite early. Heck, I had to shave starting at age 11, if I recall, and I think a grown guy would be a pedophile if he'd tried to pick me up then even though I was not technically "prepubescent."

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

Almost all true pedophiles (as opposed to run-of-the-mill child molesters) do prefer boys. Think Michael Jackson.

That doesn't make sense. What evidence is there that "true" pedophiles are gay?

Celebrity mentions don't count. For every "gay" MJ there is a straight Mark Karr (the creepy JonBenet dude).

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

Almost all true pedophiles (as opposed to run-of-the-mill child molesters) do prefer boys. Think Michael Jackson. Are they gay? Their "orientation" is young boys. They don't like adult men, or women.

What are you talking about? Where did you get the statistics of "true pedophiles prefer boys".

When was Michael Jackson found to be a pedophile? What do you mean he doesn't like men or woman? Wasn't he married to a woman and had a kid? When had Michael ever said he was gay or been seen dating a man? Have you ask him personally which he likes?

How did you give Jackson his won category of pedophile?

You're pretty much proving this whole study is correct nicely.

Most pedophile crime rings and court cases of men molesting children or even their own kids is by straight men.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Heck, I had to shave starting at age 11, if I recall,

Christ, I'm in my late 20s and I can't even grow a full beard.

You bald as a cueball now, or what?

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Actually, it just means somebody who has sex with children.

No it doesn't mean that at all. There are pedophiles who have never had sex with children. And the majority of people who have sex with children are not pedophiles.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

What do you mean he doesn't like men or woman? Wasn't he married to a woman and had a kid?

He was married, but that apparently didn't work. And those kids are not the children of a black man — which Michael is, even if surgery has disfigured him beyond recognition.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Most pedophile crime rings and court cases of men molesting children or even their own kids is by straight men.

It seems to me that most court cases of men molesting children do not involve real pedophiles (as in, people with a sexual preference for children).

[subego]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Actually, it just means somebody who has sex with children.

Courtesy of the Apple Dictionary Widget

"A person who is sexually attracted to children"

I would say a "true pedophile" is sexually attracted to children almost to the exclusion of all else.

Child molesters change-up.

[Chuckit]

OK, I phrased that imprecisely. I figured people would understand as well as if I said "A gay man sleeps with other men." Obviously there are some who are celibate, but that's the basic idea.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

He was married, but that apparently didn't work. And those kids are not the children of a black man — which Michael is, even if surgery has disfigured him beyond recognition.

So because he had plastic surgery and his kids don't look mixed enough for ya that makes him a gay pedophile?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

So because he had plastic surgery and his kids don't look mixed enough for ya that makes him a gay pedophile?

No, it would be the fact that he's well-known to fondle young boys that makes him a gay pedophile.

[dcmacdaddy]

@BRussell
What is the "clinical" difference between pedophile and child-molester, then? What does the DSM say about this? Does it indicate a distinction between the two? If so, what is that distinction? Or, is the distinction legal and not clinical?

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

No, it would be the fact that he's well-known to fondle young boys that makes him a gay pedophile.

So if it is so well known answer three questions for me.

1) Why do parents keep sending their kids to his house for sleep overs?

2) What bit of incriminating evidence do you have to prove he is a gay pedophile that multiple courts of law keep missing?

3) By "well known" do you mean "twice accused and found innocent"?

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

No, it would be the fact that he's well-known to fondle young boys that makes him a gay pedophile.

He's been accused but it's never been proven.

[Kerrigan]

I think pedophilia has more to do with control than with orientation. Pedos want a relationship which lets them exert total control, lets them inflict harm without any reciprocation, and one which lets them self-indulge in the ultimate taboo.

I think people develop into pedos, they are not born that way, and it has little to do with being homosexual. Homosexuals are merely scapegoated for this type of thing since they are more visible.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

I think pedophilia has more to do with control than with orientation. Pedos want a relationship which lets them exert total control, lets them inflict harm without any reciprocation, and one which lets them self-indulge in the ultimate taboo.

They have shown that metal illness', brain injuries and brain tumors can cause someone to spontaneously become a pedophile.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

1) Why do parents keep sending their kids to his house for sleep overs?

People are stupid and greedy.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

2) What bit of incriminating evidence do you have to prove he is a gay pedophile that multiple courts of law keep missing?

Go and read coverage of the trial, there's tons of incriminating evidence. As for what the courts of law "miss", making that happen would be a defense attorney's job description.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

3) By "well known" do you mean "twice accused and found innocent"?

They found O.J. innocent, too.

P.S. I'm not trying to get into a semantic argument over whether he's a "gay" pedophile or just a pedophile. I'm only answering your questions.

P.P.S. I had forgotten this when I was answering, I actually know someone who worked for him. He said that MJ definitely had a very weird relationship with children, nothing illegal mind you, but he seemed to think the allegation that MJ never really grew-up is accurate.

He made very clear that he wasn't trying to justify anything, but that if there was something sexually going on (which he believed to be likely) that it would probably be more like kids having sex rather than your very special episode of Diff'rent Strokes Gordon Jump sort of deal

[Rumor]

Spontaneous pedophila. Odd concept.

[art_director]

Dang, I really do need to find my can of Troll-B-Gone™.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by subego 

People are stupid and greedy.

So you are saying they send the kids there because of his reputation and they know they can get money/fame out of it. Ya sounds guilty to me.

Go and read coverage of the trial, there's tons of incriminating evidence. As for what the courts of law "miss", making that happen would be a defense attorney's job description.

What you are saying because you watched coverage on TV you know better than the jury or he has a really good attorney because you are 100% sure he is guilty because you watched the news and know the truth.

They found O.J. innocent, too.

See above.

I actually know someone who worked for him. He said that MJ definitely had a very weird relationship with children, nothing illegal mind you, but he seemed to think the allegation that MJ never really grew-up is accurate.

So what? People have weird relationships with their pets, families or spouses that doesn't make them freaks.

And yes I am sure he does have a strange relationship with kids. Know why? Because he never had a childhood as he became a star and couldn't play outside freely like normal kids could. He also had abusive parents so it is not surprising that he doesn't like adults as they either try to sue him, screw him over or kiss his ass.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

What you are saying because you watched coverage on TV you know better than the jury or he has a really good attorney because you are 100% sure he is guilty because you watched the news and know the truth.

Quite frankly, outsiders usually know more than the jury, because the defense will try to get every piece of evidence it possibly can dismissed. This is why jury members aren't allowed to watch the news or anything — they might find out things they aren't supposed to know.

[Oisín]

What is the "clinical" difference between pedophile and child-molester, then?

The same difference as between a heterosexual and a rapist.

Paedophilia means that you’re attracted to children, whether you act on it or not. Most paedophiles (as far as I know, by whatever statistics I’ve happened to see over the years) are not child-molesters. They love children—though in a completely wrong way—and don’t want to hurt them. Many of them realise that what they want from children (sex) would be equal to hurting them, hate themselves for having this desire to hurt them, and thus never act on their desire.

Being a child-molester doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re even sexually attracted to children—it just means that you like molesting them (or, more precisely, that you do or have molested children). It can very easily be a question not of sexual attraction towards the child, but of the simple feeling of power over a defenseless child.

The two can easily overlap, but they can also easily live and exist quite separate from each other. Someone who has the desire to feel that sense of power that comes with sexual molestation, but is perhaps physically very weak or has some other kind of problem, might well turn to molesting children rather than adults, for fear that his attempt at an adult would fail (or through realising that attempts have indeed failed). Children won’t fight back with as much strength.

On the other hand, an actual paedophile (who is sexually attracted to children, as such) can also very easily become a child-molester, either by enjoying the feeling of having the ultimate power over a child (as above), or by somehow convincing themselves to believe that the children they molest actually like it, and that they’re not being cruel to these children at all.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

So you are saying...

No. I am not saying that.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

What you are saying [is]...

No. This is not what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

So what? People have weird relationships with their pets, families or spouses that doesn't make them freaks.

It was an anecdote, quite heavily qualified as well.

Edit: This is why I said, "I had forgotten this" to show I was not attempting to connect my anecdote to my answers to your questions. I hadn't even remembered the anecdote when I answered your questions.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Quite frankly, outsiders usually know more than the jury, because the defense will try to get every piece of evidence it possibly can dismissed.

Well in your case since you seem to be convinced of his guilt I recommend you go and file a police report with the critical evidence that is in your possession.

Just don't mention anything like "I know a 'guy' that knows him but he said Michael didn't do anything illegal but he is weird".

[subego]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Well in your case since you seem to be convinced of his guilt I recommend you go and file a police report with the critical evidence that is in your possession.

This is just a weird argument. Because the courts have decided one can no longer have their own opinion?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Just don't mention anything like "I know a 'guy' that knows him but he said Michael didn't do anything illegal but he is weird".

Free speech, SWG. And before you mention anything about libel, such comments do not rise to that legal level a) because there are no tangible damages to sue over b) Jackson is a celebrity and officially enjoys less protection than average citizens.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by subego 

This is just a weird argument. Because the courts have decided one can no longer have their own opinion?

No you can have your opinion all you want.. but it is totally worthless. If you are a pro on the matter from watching Hard Copy and Fox news go nuts, but without fact or evidence it is meritless.

Even if Michael DID or did not do it anyone who mentions Michael Jackson is proving this study nicely as just one person being publicly accused and found innocent is a landmark example of "gays are more likely to be pedophiles".

[subego]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

anyone who mentions Michael Jackson

I didn't bring him up. I was responding to your questions to Chuckit.

I also made it clear, though apparently not clearly enough, I wasn't trying to provoke an argument about what we semantically label MJ as, and how that fits into the study.

It's not that I'm not interested in the argument, I just wasn't discussing it at that particular moment.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by subego 

I didn't bring him up. I was responding to your questions to Chuckit.

I also made it clear, though apparently not clearly enough, I wasn't trying to provoke an argument about what we semantically label MJ as, and how that fits into the study.

It's not that I'm not interested in the argument, I just wasn't discussing it at that particular moment.

Michael Jackson in thriller: 'I'm not like other guys.'

We know, Michael, we know.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Well in your case since you seem to be convinced of his guilt I recommend you go and file a police report with the critical evidence that is in your possession.

Just don't mention anything like "I know a 'guy' that knows him but he said Michael didn't do anything illegal but he is weird".

Do you say the same about OJ?

Seriously, the criminal justice system is not infallible. It is intended to err on the side of letting guilty people go free.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Do you say the same about OJ?

Seriously, the criminal justice system is not infallible. It is intended to err on the side of letting guilty people go free.

In OJ's case that's precisely what happened.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

What are you talking about? Where did you get the statistics of "true pedophiles prefer boys".

It's well-known, although I'm not sure I can prove it to you with internet links. I'm using the term "true pedophile" to mean those who are not interested in adults, who are "preferential" or "fixated" on children, to use the lingo. I assign this reading (pdf) in one of my classes. Check it out. Here's a quote: "More preferential child molesters seem to prefer boy than prefer girl victims."

When was Michael Jackson found to be a pedophile? What do you mean he doesn't like men or woman? Wasn't he married to a woman and had a kid? When had Michael ever said he was gay or been seen dating a man? Have you ask him personally which he likes?

How did you give Jackson his won category of pedophile?

If you were to do some research on pedophiles, you'd see that he fits the traits absolutely perfectly. And note that I said pedophiles do not have relationships with adult women or men. I never claimed Michael Jackson was gay - IMO, he's a pedophile who obtains his victims with the most expensive grooming facility ever constructed: Neverland.

You're pretty much proving this whole study is correct nicely.

What study is that? The link you provided isn't a study, it's a website asserting that the religious right hates gays and tries to conflate them with pedophiles. I ain't no religious right, and I'm specifically trying to distinguish gays and pedophiles, so I don't see how I prove it correct.

Most pedophile crime rings and court cases of men molesting children or even their own kids is by straight men.

If you read my first post, I said this: "On the other hand, non-pedophile, run-of-the-mill child molesters are genuinely heterosexual (they have sex with adult women) but sometimes victimize children, and their victims are usually girls. And the vast majority of child molesters are the latter type, the non-pedophiles."

Come on, it might take a little more thought than bantering with the usual trolls here, but if you use your head a bit, I think you can get it.

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

That doesn't make sense. What evidence is there that "true" pedophiles are gay?

First, they're not gay, in the sense that they don't like adult men. Their "orientation," if you want to call it that, is typically young boys, usually around age 12-15. Second, the evidence comes from studies of them, which find that the repeat offenders, the preferential types (i.e., the true pedophiles, not just the child molesters) tend to have boy victims more often than girls. I don't know of any available on the internet. For example, the DSM says: "The recidivism rate for individuals with Pedophilia involving a preference for males is roughly twice that for those who prefer females."

Celebrity mentions don't count. For every "gay" MJ there is a straight Mark Karr (the creepy JonBenet dude).

Don't count for what? He's an example, not evidence. He's the only well-known true pedophile that I could think of. Most child molesters that you hear about are not pedophiles. From what I can tell about this Karr, he's just a loser who wanted attention.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

@BRussell
What is the "clinical" difference between pedophile and child-molester, then? What does the DSM say about this? Does it indicate a distinction between the two? If so, what is that distinction? Or, is the distinction legal and not clinical?

I think I laid it out in my other posts, but it's hard for people to get their heads around, because the way it's really defined is so different from the way it's used in the media and popular culture.

Pedophiles "love" kids. You don't have to ever molest a child in order to be a pedophile. Some pedophiles see prostitutes and pay them to dress up like kids. Or they suffer along with "barely legals." If they do molest kids, they warp their thinking in such a way that they fool themselves into thinking that it was the right thing to do, kind of like a 90-lb anorexic believes she's fat.

Child molesters may be pedophiles, but most are not. Most are just losers or bad eggs who get drunk or lose control of themselves and go after an easy target. They are almost always heterosexual males, and their victims are almost always girls. They don't talk in glowing terms about kids like true pedophiles. They don't have grooming facilities like true pedophiles.

You're right, the distinction is more legal - psychologists and psychiatrists use terms like pedophilia, whereas it of course doesn't matter to the law. If you molest a kid, you've broken the law, pedophile or not.

But the law should pay more attention to the distinction, because pedophiles are much more likely to recidivate than run-of-the-mill "drunk uncle" pedophiles, who will often feel remorse and have no higher recidivism rates than other criminals.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Do you say the same about OJ?

Yes because I have absolutely no evidence to prove otherwise. My 'feelings' don't count.

[Chuckit]

It's worth noting, though, that even if all pedophiles are gay, that doesn't mean most gays are pedophiles. That's a logical fallacy called affirming the consequent.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Yes because I have absolutely no evidence to prove otherwise. My 'feelings' don't count.

You have no evidence? You didn't watch the trial, did you? Everybody except that particular jury (including the other jury in the civil case) was convinced of his guilt.

[Kerrigan]

It's worth noting, though, that even if most pedophiles are gay,

What evidence says most pedos are gay? The article in the OP would suggest otherwise

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It's worth noting, though, that even if most pedophiles are gay, that doesn't mean most gays are pedophiles. That's a logical fallacy called affirming the consequent.

To know that most pedophiles are gay we'd need to identify 'em all. That will never happen so it's all theory. That said, I agree with your post.

[Rumor]

I heard that most true Africans have dark skin.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

What evidence says most pedos are gay? The article in the OP would suggest otherwise

SWG was apparently trying to disprove this notion, so clearly somebody believes it. I was just saying that it's not necessary to disprove that in order to debunk the idea that gay = pedophile.

[Kerrigan]

Oh I gotcha

[mitchell_pgh]

Do people still think that homosexuals molest children more frequently than strait people?

Ugh...

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

Yeah there needs to be a term for people into late teeners, because pedophile is a gross mischaracterization, IMO.

Unless I'm mistaken, such a term exists: ephebophile. Not one you hear very often, though.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

Unless I'm mistaken, such a term exists: ephebophile. Not one you hear very often, though.

Sadly, because it's great fun.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

Unless I'm mistaken, such a term exists: ephebophile. Not one you hear very often, though.

Your knowledge is always impressive.

Now, I won't ask why you know the term...