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Atomic Rooster · Mar 30, 2007, 09:21 PM

Just wondering marden, if you can HEAR me.

Rule 8, I take the fifth.

Obviously this thread is aimed at atheists like me or even agnostics.

I believe it's peoples fear of nothingness, smithereens, missing loved ones etc...

Just what it was for the millions of years before you were born, nothing.

lpkmckenna · Mar 30, 2007, 09:28 PM

I don't think it does. Religion is merely an early form of philosophizing. It's natural to hypothesize about where the world came from or what happens after death.

BRussell · Mar 30, 2007, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

I don't think it does. Religion is merely an early form of philosophizing. It's natural to hypothesize about where the world came from or what happens after death.

I think you're right. But here's the thing: It ain't early any more.

Face Ache · Mar 30, 2007, 10:44 PM

A human lifespan is so short. 80 years to make sense of the entire universe and everything in it? I don't think so.

If only people would learn from history, things might be easier. Same mistakes over and over.

smacintush · 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by BRussell

I think you're right. But here's the thing: It ain't early any more.

Says who?

But seriously, I think that it just goes to show a deep need for vital spiritual experience in the human race. No matter how much we learn and how far we've come, even the most advanced of our societies still can't let go of religion.

Perhaps because although science is very useful to us, it's not all that "fulfilling".

OldManMac · Mar 31, 2007, 01:55 AM

I believe it stems from the fear of the unknown. The vast majority of people seem to need to believe in something other than themselves, and a few opportunistic people sense that, and become powerful by providing the answers. Every civilzation/culture since man has existed has needed answers to the questions of life, such as why we are here, and who/what put us here. The opportunists amongst us sense that, and tell us what we want to hear, such as the beliefs that fire was a god, and thunder was a god, and rain was a god, and for Christians, Jesus was a god put here to save us from ourselves. People also can't grasp such concepts as infinity, or apparently even concepts longer than a few thousand years, according to those who believe that the earth is only that old. They need to be told how to live their lives, so they'll go to some mystical place called "heaven," or their spirits will be reincarnated, or whatever their religion preaches to them. Of course, they can't grasp what heaven is, but that doesn't matter, because somebody who "knows" assuages their fears, so no doubt everything will be just fine when they get there. If they behave badly, then they're scared witless by telling them that they're going to burn in some fires "down below." Some of these opportunists even claim that their god talks to them (we have one in a white building in Washington), and, again, people believe them because they need to.

Taliesin · Mar 31, 2007, 05:44 AM

I actually think religions stem from spiritual interactions of God who created everything, with humans, in order to guide them somewhat on the right track. These inspired humans told their people about it, and most shunned them or attacked, killed or at least banned them for it. Nonetheless the messages remained orally transferred by minorities, heavily interpreted and modified along the centuries, until the ability to fix messages scripturally provided for more reliable means to preserve messages... but with the danger of rigidness and inflexibility to adapt to changing times.

The really interesting question is, if God's spiritual interaction with humanity stopped or if it still continues but we merely ignore or redicule the prophets, but if it stopped, did it so, because God was of the opinion that the scripturally fixed messages made new prophets unnecessary.

I guess it is the latter one.

But what about the enlightment-phase of humanity. Is that what God aimed for in the first place, to raise us humans through the ages, until we reach the point where we can rely on our rationality and responsibility. Or is the cherishment of rationality and selfdependence/selffulfillment, merely a modern form of polytheism and a rebellion against God?

Taliesin

red rocket · Mar 31, 2007, 06:07 AM

I think it's important to differentiate between religion and spirituality. Like some musician from Africa I saw on TV once said, "What's with all this white man religious crap? Africans aren't religious, we're spiritual."

Do people need spirituality? I suspect a lot of them do, and even though it may be a weakness and rooted in phobias, there isn't anything there that's crying out for condemnation.

Religion, however, is politics, and as such stems from the will to power. I don't think most religious people are spiritual at all, and they're certainly not philosophers. Philosophers try to think about things, religionists already "know" everything. The one requires intelligence and an open mind, the other just dumb faith and a naïve worship of authority figures.

Atomic Rooster · Mar 31, 2007, 05:17 PM

OK, now I'm pissed!

I had a rather long post typed out which took much thought and went to post it and something ****ed up and I lost it.

It was all about Nun bitches.

I'll take my medication and try again later after it's taken effect.

I like your sig by the way rr. You have a larger version. Like to make T-shirt for moi to wear.

Hawkeye_a · Apr 1, 2007, 07:48 AM

I think religion (as in the way we live our lives).... came from the need for social order in some way, maybe as a soltion to "anarchy" in some way. I reckon it could have been a way to define a particular "morality"....and unlike some religions of today...morality, like everything evolves....hopefully for the better.

If you refer to the spiritual side/claims or different world religions.... the afterlife, God, etc.... i'm sure we'll all figure out the answers to all those questions eventually

, if not...just enjoy the ride and spread a little cheer eh ?

spindler · Apr 1, 2007, 09:08 AM

One of the reasons that religion continues is that they get you at an early age and build a interdependent web of lies that is hard to get out of.

At 5 years old, your parents tell you "Mommy and Daddy love Jesus, and you should love him, too." How are you going to argue with that at five years old? How are you not going to accept that?

And then you have the deadlocked circle of lies. From 5-10 they try to link your morality to religion, so you see them hand in hand. At 10 you start wondering that if there is a god why does it allow so much suffering? But they tell you that it is so so important to have "faith". So you try really, really hard to have faith, because your morality got linked to religion and you can't see just giving all that stuff up that is now a part of your thought patterns. When someone gets sick your parents say "God is thinking of them." It's hard to give that up, so then you try to have faith.

You've been scared into thinking that people are lost without god, so you have an instinct to not give that up. You've been told that true morality is mostly inspired from god, etc., etc.

So it takes a lot of courage and defiance to give that up. As you can see, most people don't have much courage. They'll get used to anything. Look at the crap on television that's completely unacceptable as entertainment: broken families on Springer, Jon Benet Ramsey, Laci Peterson. If people had courage, they would have boycotted this vile ****.

Most people may be somewhat moral and have a sense of fairness, but they simply are not crusaders for all that is good and right. It takes this kind of spirit to say "If god allows all this suffering, he can go **** himself, and I'll take it from here and set it right."

subego · Apr 1, 2007, 09:37 AM

The most entertaining idea I've heard is that we evolved religion to counter self-awareness of mortality. The "god" part of the brain.

Some people are more developed than others. Speaking in tongue types have it full-on. Existential atheist types don't have it at all.

Interesting idea at least. I would say this qualifies as stemming from phobias, though not exactly as you intended.

Chuckit · Apr 1, 2007, 01:25 PM

To be honest, I think a lot of human thought is born out of fear. Probably the majority of what we think could be described that way. Most religion and "spirituality" (which is another word for religion that people use to make themselves feel superior) fall under this header, as things people believe in because they hope it will them avoid some negative fate. I don't think the irreligious are free of this kind of thinking, though.

Big Mac · Apr 1, 2007, 01:51 PM

We're dealing with a genuine dichotomy here: If you believe in the truth of a particular religion, then you'll reject the critical, cynical view propounded by the OP and the majority in this thread; if you don't, then you'll accept that view.

Chuckit · Apr 1, 2007, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

We're dealing with a genuine dichotomy here: If you believe in the truth of a particular religion, then you'll reject the critical, cynical view propounded by the OP and the majority in this thread; if you don't, then you'll accept that view.

What if you belong to a religion that acknowledges people turn to religion out of fear, such as Satanism or Buddhism?

Jawbone54 · Apr 1, 2007, 04:45 PM

Where do phobias come from?

OldManMac · Apr 1, 2007, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Where do phobias come from?

Google is your friend. http://www.mind.org.uk/Information/B...ng+phobias.htm

Atomic Rooster · Apr 1, 2007, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by KarlG

Google is your friend. http://www.mind.org.uk/Information/B...ng+phobias.htm

It didn't mention praying your ass off or seeking counselling from a priest, but that was prolly cuz it was a British government site.

I'm still thinking of those nasty nun bitches and how they scared the **** outta me with their claims that I would suffer torture and eternal roasting if I did not accept Jesus or God or the Holy Ghost. The ghost part really scared me too. I couldn't figure how there were three guys either.

Damn the Catholic church.

Big Mac · Apr 1, 2007, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

What if you belong to a religion that acknowledges people turn to religion out of fear, such as Satanism or Buddhism?

Satanism is a joke, Chuckit. Satanism is just negative secular humanism in my view. Buddhism's main message is that this is a life of suffering that must be transcended in order to attain an enlightened state. And even the purest form of Buddhism still subscribes to certain supernatural elements. The anti-Hinduism portion of its philosophy is of secondary importance. Buddhism is a true religion; Satanism is not. Heck, even Scientology (an admitted work of fiction) is closer to a religion than Satanism.

red rocket · Apr 2, 2007, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster

I like your sig by the way rr. You have a larger version. Like to make T-shirt for moi to wear.

Not much larger, I'm afraid. The delete symbol is taken from some guy's icon set, so the biggest version of it that I have is 128*128 pixels. I might vectorise the icon and enlarge it from there, but I doubt the drop shadow will scale well. Probably better off redrawing everything from scratch.