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newcomer · Jul 2, 2003, 08:22 AM

Hi folks,

I have owned an iBook for about 4 months now (14' 800Mhz, 640MB RAM) and am totally happy with it.

I mostly use it at my desk but use the battery for power: it is only plugged in for charging. As I understand it, leaving the AC power on while the battery is at full charge is bad for the battery, so I don't do this.

However, since I am basically using the machine as a desktop is it best to use AC power all the time to save my battery? If I do this should I remove the battery?

If so should I remove the battery on full or no charge and how should I store it when out of the iBook?

Cheers

PS: I have OSX and OS9.2 on the machine - what do you reckon Photoshop 6 performance would be like using OS 9 - and would Photoshop 6 even work in OSX?

radarbob · Jul 2, 2003, 09:35 AM

I heard lots about how to manage the battery, but it seems somewhat like guesswork - I've seen no *absolutely, definitely* this is the way to do it. So here goes...

The batteries in the iBooks are much better than in older Mac laptops but they still have a finite life. Anecdotally I'd say around two years of use.

I've heard the battery has a finite number of charge-depleate cycles so it's best to keep it charged up rather than continually deplete it. Besides it's a bummer when you rush out the door w/ your 'book and discover later there's only 1/2 charge left! These batteries have no "memory" so you should always get a complete charge every time.

Leave the battery in when on AC power. Apple has done lots of fine tuning over the years to the battery charge/control logic and as far as I can tell you're not helping (nor hurting I guess - except exposing the battery compartment, and the contacts to dirt and damage) by removing the battery.

I believe Apple recommends for new computers, an initial charge with a full discharge, then no specific use guidelines after that.

Sometimes batteries just go bad. Our 700MHz was 6 months old when the battery suddenly gave up the ghost; replaced under warranty.

OS 9 had lots of little control panel things to tweak to help enhance battery life - not so w/ OS X. 'bout the best you can do is keep the screen brightness down and put it to sleep right away when not in use. By doing this I could take my RevA iBook to work and "use it all day" on the battery alone.

BTW, my experience is that batteries don't get cheaper as the models change and there's less demand for older stuff. Batteries for my RevA iBook are more costly today than in 1999.

Cipher13 · Jul 3, 2003, 05:58 AM

Originally posted by newcomer:
Hi folks,

I have owned an iBook for about 4 months now (14' 800Mhz, 640MB RAM) and am totally happy with it.

I mostly use it at my desk but use the battery for power: it is only plugged in for charging. As I understand it, leaving the AC power on while the battery is at full charge is bad for the battery, so I don't do this.

However, since I am basically using the machine as a desktop is it best to use AC power all the time to save my battery? If I do this should I remove the battery?

If so should I remove the battery on full or no charge and how should I store it when out of the iBook?

Cheers

PS: I have OSX and OS9.2 on the machine - what do you reckon Photoshop 6 performance would be like using OS 9 - and would Photoshop 6 even work in OSX?

PS6 on OS9 will kill any PS on OSX.

Anyway... I'd take the battery out when using the iBook but not charging the battery. For short term storage, it doesn't matter about the battery charge (short term, oas in, over the course of a week or something...).

Don't constantly charge the battery when it's already mostly full, etc.

The Placid Casual · Jul 3, 2003, 06:53 AM

In the past, I have run my iBook (466SE) with the AC connected, with the battery in, very frequently... I let the battery discharge and recharge every few days, but for the most part it was AC only.

For me, it seems to have had no obvious ill effects, and the battery can still deliver about 4 hours when unplugged... Kind of down from what it could do originally, but nothing to vex me.

However, I now have removed the battery as the machine will not leave my desk for a few months until my G5 arrives... better safe than sorry.

newcomer · Jul 3, 2003, 07:06 AM

Thanks to everyone for your advice.

Keep rockin' with your iBooks! Are we not fortunate to enjoy these awesome machines?

Simon · Jul 3, 2003, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Don't constantly charge the battery when it's already mostly full, etc.

I don't quite understand all this battery paranoia.

Isn't the iBook's battery a Li-ion cell? I thought it was.

These batteries have a safety against over-charging, so you can leave it pluggged in even if the batt is 100% charged. They should not be able to over-charge. If they would, they could become explosive which should be a rather nice motivation for Apple to make sure they damn don't.

Secondly, if they are Li ion cells thay have no memory effect like Ni metal hybrid cells do. So, they don't care if they are charged starting from 10% or starting from 90%. Their lifetime can be specified by something like 1,000 full charge cycles. So if you always only charge from 80% to 100% you are only going through a 1/5 cycle which gives you obviously less lifetime shortening. Contrary to NiMH bastards which never forget that you didn't fully discharge and thus like to die sudden unforseen deaths.

So, please correct me if I'm wrong, but if the iBook has Li ion battery cells, it is actually no problem to charge it as you wish, how long you want and to leave the cable for comfort. But, what the batt truely hates is ultra-cold temperatures, shorts and HCl acid.

Sosa · Jul 3, 2003, 09:14 PM

I've had my battery for 10 months now and while I usually run on AC power I have not e ever removed the battery. This seems to me like a burdensome and unnecessary step. Apple certanly does not mention anything about this and my battery is still getting 3.5 hours (albeit under reduced processor speed).

Which is the other comment I wanted to make, you can have you battery charge last you longer my setting it to reduce processor speed when on battery power. You can do this from the Energy Saver Panel.

There were also some comments about shutting down AirPort if you were not using it, but others have argued that the effect is insignificant on battery charge.

k_munic · Jul 4, 2003, 03:44 AM

Originally posted by Simon:
I don't quite understand all this battery paranoia.

Isn't the iBook's battery a Li-ion cell? I thought it was.

These batteries have a safety against over-charging, so you can leave it pluggged in even if the batt is 100% charged. They should not be able to over-charge. If they would, they could become explosive which should be a rather nice motivation for Apple to make sure they damn don't.

Secondly, if they are Li ion cells thay have no memory effect like Ni metal hybrid cells do. So, they don't care if they are charged starting from 10% or starting from 90%. Their lifetime can be specified by something like 1,000 full charge cycles. So if you always only charge from 80% to 100% you are only going through a 1/5 cycle which gives you obviously less lifetime shortening. Contrary to NiMH bastards which never forget that you didn't fully discharge and thus like to die sudden unforseen deaths.

So, please correct me if I'm wrong, but if the iBook has Li ion battery cells, it is actually no problem to charge it as you wish, how long you want and to leave the cable for comfort. But, what the batt truely hates is ultra-cold temperatures, shorts and HCl acid.

right, AND:
Li ion cells oxydate - some people believe, they do it faster, when they get warmer (=loading)...-
and they do it, even when you don't use them..-

btw: will be funny within the next 3 years, when the early-adopters find out, that their iPods can't replace the "battery"...-

Simon · Jul 4, 2003, 03:47 AM

Originally posted by k_munic:
btw: will be funny within the next 3 years, when the early-adopters find out, that their iPods can't replace the "battery"...-

Maybe Apple dealers will have some replacement program like with the MDD G4 noise problems. You bring it in, it gets repaired in a couple of minutes and it costs $100.

milhouse · Jul 12, 2003, 02:05 PM

The battery in my 7 month old iBook 800 gradually lost it's ability to both charge to 100% and to retain a charge.

I reset the NVRAM via OF and cycled my battery (discharge the battery to <1% and immediately charge it to full. Repeat two more times ) and now it seems to operate as it did when it was new.

HTH

Chips G · Jul 12, 2003, 03:27 PM

Whats OF? And how do you reset the NVRAM?
I am only getting about 15 minutes of power from my 2 year old iBook (500mhz) and I would like to try ANYTHING to increase that time.

Graymalkin · Jul 12, 2003, 04:03 PM

Li-ion cells only begin to oxidyze when their charge drops below their lowest rated charge, usually between 5% and 1% of total charge. It is not a good idea to fully discharge (deep cycle) a Li-ion battery. Effects where a battery will not maintain a charge is most typically a firmware issue in the battery. A reset of the battery's control electronics will solve that problem. The only other reason a Li-ion cell will not hold a charge is it has given up the ghost which means a new battery.

There's so much battery nonsense flying about anymore, it is absolutely absurd. Li-ion batteries, as Simon said, are pretty robust little devices. They will not overcharge nor end up with any ill effects if left in the laptop while under AC power.

If you want to store your Li-ion battery for a short period of time charge it fully and store it in a place that doesn't get very hot. For long term storage the battery ought to be charged to 20-40% capacity every three months of non-use to prevent oxidation. Li-ion batteries have very low self discharge rates so if you've been storing it, top it off or fully charge within 3 weeks of using it. If your Li-ion has become oxidyzed discharge it and then fully charge it (deep cycle). The oxidation effect ought to be minimized if you do.

milhouse · Jul 13, 2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by Chris Gilpin:
Whats OF? And how do you reset the NVRAM?
I am only getting about 15 minutes of power from my 2 year old iBook (500mhz) and I would like to try ANYTHING to increase that time.

OF is Open Firmware. it is the Apple equivalent of a PC "BIOS".

When rebooting the iBook simultaneously hold down the "O" + "F" + "apple" + "option" keys. You'll be greeted with a command line interface.

Once you are there release those keys.
Type, (omitting the quotes):

"reset-nvram"
then hit the enter key
Type (omitting the quotes):
"reset-all"
then hit the enter key

The iBook should restart normally.

I've only been able to restore my battery to full charge by cycling, despite what the above poster noted about Li-ion batteries.
I'm not contradicting anyone's knowledge rather I'm noting what worked well for me.

There is an Apple KB article on how to reset the PMU (power manager) for the iBook. It is a recommended read as corruption can result in strange "battery issues" as well. I cant' access the Apple support site at this time otherwise I'd post the direct link.

HTH

Cheers

Josh Reid · Jul 13, 2003, 02:33 PM

According to the battery time indicator, my fully-charged iBook 600 battery only will last for 51 minutes. I'm sure it's even less than that, as a few weeks ago I unplugged the iBook to use it with a Formac DV Studio which uses the firewire port for power, and the computer put itself to sleep due to lack of power within 5 minutes...

I rarely used this iBook unplugged, so I didn't notice the gradual decline in battery life. It was used 95% of the time plugged in, fully charged....very frustrating.

-Josh

Big Mac · Aug 20, 2003, 03:38 AM

I started this thread on AI because it seems there is contradictory advice concerning proper battery charging. Go over to that thread and read what Apple says vs. IBM concerning Li-Ion charging - it sounds contradictory to me. I'm still not sure whether one should wait until the unit goes into comatose sleep before plugging it in or if frequent charging regardless of level is better.

In any case, I'm only getting an hour of juice from my soon to be three year-old iBook 466 SE battery. So I guess it's time to replace it. Where are people going for replacement batteries?

Big Mac · Aug 20, 2003, 08:31 PM

Anyone know of a good place to get iBook batteries?

Footy · Aug 25, 2003, 08:44 PM

bump... I could use a new (inexpesive) battery too.

-Footy

Big Mac · Aug 28, 2003, 10:39 AM

one good bump deserves another. . .

biscuit · Aug 29, 2003, 06:18 AM

Good site for all battery related stuff:

Battery Related Stuff Site

I think my iBook battery has suffered from being plugged in all the time, but then it is replaceable so I'm not too worried. I never actually use it on battery power that often, if it becomes an issue I can buy a new one. Unlike an iPod of course, that is a little worrying...

There was a big hoo-ha when 10.2.5 came out (I think it was 10.2.5) because it seemed to kill everyone's batteries. I think this might still be a factor for some people, even under 10.2.6. The power management stuff is apparently not as refined in OSX as it was in OS9 and there are issues with the fact that OSX needs to/tends to page to disk a lot. So it may never get to be as good as OS9, which would let you spin down the HD and run out of RAM for longer.

biscuit

f1000 · Aug 29, 2003, 12:46 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Graymalkin:
[B]Li-ion cells only begin to oxidyze when their charge drops below their lowest rated charge, usually between 5% and 1% of total charge.

I may just be a lowly chemist, but pray tell what are "oxydate" and "oxidyze"?

DancingBrook · Aug 29, 2003, 04:31 PM

Apple KB: iBook & PowerBook PMU (Power Management Unit)

Dave Hagan · Aug 29, 2003, 08:05 PM

From the factory, a new Apple notebook should be turned and used UNTIL the "Warning: You are running on reserve power" flag appears. Plug-in and fully charge the battery. After the battery has been fully charged, use the computer normally until you completely drain the battery and get the warning flag. Repeat a couple of times. You should then be able to plug in at any time. However, I recommend against using the computer plugged-in all the time. Exercise the battery frequently by using it on its battery. Use your notebook in such a way that you are aware of how you are using the battery and power adapter. The only way to get the most out of your PowerBook/iBook's battery is to be mindful of when you exercise it. Using it for twenty minutes here and there and plugging it in won't necessarily hurt it, but constantly using it for an hour or so on battery and plugging it in may actually depleat the lifespan of the battery. They say Li-Ion batts are not supposed to suffer from the "memory effect," but they still can if they are not given enough exercise.

DigitalEl · Aug 30, 2003, 07:19 AM

From the factory, a new Apple notebook should be turned and used UNTIL the "Warning: You are running on reserve power" flag appears.

I'm one of those people who's never gotten the above warning. My 'Book just goes to sleep when she's tired. No yawning at all.

12" PowerBook / 10.2.6 / 640 MB RAM

technohedz · Aug 30, 2003, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by k_munic:

btw: will be funny within the next 3 years, when the early-adopters find out, that their iPods can't replace the "battery"...-

erm... what are you talking about? There's been a company doing replacement of gen I ipod batteries (or selling them to you direct) for over half a year. Just try google searching them. The only thing that's gonna be funny in 3 years is the laughter early adopters experience when a new user finally realizes how much they have been missing out by not having one of these incredible little things.

btw: someone stated that their experience with batteries wasn't getting cheaper. I agree, but I would caution against buying an additional battery when purchasing your next apple laptop unless you are actually going to use both of the batteries up (long plane flights and such). Li-ion's will loose efficiency whether used or not. For example, my friend purchased an additional Li-ion w/ his pismo and 2 years later (when his primary died) his 2nd battery could only hold about 15 mins charge. They just go.

Link · Aug 30, 2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by k_munic:
right, AND:
Li ion cells oxydate - some people believe, they do it faster, when they get warmer (=loading)...-
and they do it, even when you don't use them..-

btw: will be funny within the next 3 years, when the early-adopters find out, that their iPods can't replace the "battery"...-

You can get ipod replacement batteries for $50.

http://www.pdasmart.com/ipodpartscenter.htm

http://www.ipodbattery.com/

biscuit · Sep 1, 2003, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by DigitalEl:
[B]I'm one of those people who's never gotten the above warning. My 'Book just goes to sleep when she's tired. No yawning at all.

12" PowerBook / 10.2.6 / 640 MB RAM

This is what I'm talking about; 10.2.6 seems to screw up battery management. I also don't get the warning before my iBook sleeps. I've tried the PMU resets and stuff to no avail. Here's hoping 10.2.7 or Panther (please God it MUST be in Panther!!) fixes this.

biscuit

NYCFarmboy · Sep 2, 2003, 10:36 AM

Just a word of caution on the battery thing:

Having been in NYC during the black out, I was able to go online and do my email and work ONLY because both my white ibooks batterys were charged.

So i had about 6 hours of laptop use during the 30 hour blackout.

I also have an older orange clamshell ibook which had 3 hours of battery time on it (I keep it charged as well), so I was able to do pretty much do whatever I wanted during the blackout.

But..maybe another blackout won't come for 30 years.

Lebensm�de · 12:05 PM

Originally posted by DigitalEl:
I'm one of those people who's never gotten the above warning. My 'Book just goes to sleep when she's tired. No yawning at all.

This is a known issue:

Apple Knowledge Base article 1

And for proper calibration of an iBook battery:

Apple Knowledge Base article 2

As somebody over on Spymac put it in the course of a similar discussion and after reading the second article: "I guess I can stop being a battery charging Nazi now."

In other words, lighten up guys. It's only a battery, designed to be replaced after a certain amount of use...

Scooterboy · 04:56 AM

I've noticed lately on my 2001 iBook that the low battery warning comes on sometimes after only 45 minutes of battery use from a full charge. It also predicts only about 1 hour or so on a full charge, and about 38 minutes from a 60% charge.
However, if I ignore the low battery warning and don't put it to sleep, my iBook keeps on working for about 2 more hours, with Airport turned on and screen brightness at around 25%. This isn't a complaint as I feel the battery is performing above expectations after two years, I'm just wondering why the battery indicator is so inaccurate.

[edit] I should have read the above links which answered my questions! lazy me. Thank you for posting them, Labensm�de!