[besson3c]

I think one of the biggest problems in the US right now is how fiercely partisan both its politicians and citizens have become. The US system of government was designed so that its citizens serve as an all-important check and balance to our government. An unconditional, partisan loyalty is hurtful to this country, and counters the ideals of democracy. I believe that in doing so, we have joined the politicians who seem more concerned with fighting each other than working in productive directions to solve actual problems.

This post is a call-for-action to stop being a part of the politicians' strategies, starting by cleaning up some of the nasty language and communication which goes on here.

Here are some specific suggestions I have for doing so:

1) Cut out the pointless little partisan cheap shots (e.g. liberals are such and such, conservatives are such and such). The thread about how George Bush is *fill in the blank*, I think was utterly pointless.

2) Recognize that your party of choice is not perfect or infallible. I consider myself a moderate liberal, but I hate that Howard Dean always seems to want to get in little cheap shots about Republicans when given the opportunity.

2b) Recognize that there is a balance and counter to any particular point of view. Not everything is in black and white. To balance my criticism of Howard Dean, one could point out that the Republicans are in power, and consequently the Democrats are less prominent of a voice right now. One might go as far as to say that they are being "shut out", but if you want to take such a strong stance, back up your viewpoint with some civil discussion so that it is not simply flame-bait.

3) Recognize that we all want the best thing for the country. Recognize the complexity of many issues, and all the nuanced arguments. Stop blindly cheering for your horse, and start contributing to a civilized discussion about the country.

4) Recognize that most of us here probably have pretty strong viewpoints which aren't likely to change. Respect other people's opinions rather than engaging in pissing contests and games designed to try to prove the other person "wrong".

5) If somebody has not made a point very clearly, don't twist their words around and use them to manipulate the tone of the discussion to present yourself in some righteous light. Ask for clarification, be respectful.

6) Avoid dangerous labels like something being the "best", "worst"... for instance, the "best" country. No one here can even begin to define a "best" country, this sort of discussion is completely counter-productive.

7) Stop arguing about pointless things such as whether Bush gave the media a thumbs up, index finger, or middle finger. It is interesting to use Photoshop and other tools to try to prove yourself as right, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.

8) Don't hide in anonymity of the internet by changing nicknames to piss people off, or whatever. Speak to people like you would in person. If these forums are affecting your life so much that you find yourself compelled to do this sort of thing, perhaps it's best to take a time out? This sort of obsession is probably not healthy.

9) Just be nice, damnit. We are all very smart people, act like it. Speak intelligently, civilly, etc. Treat people like you would want to be treated. Blah blah blah.

* disclaimer: I'm not perfect, I may have broken my own rules/suggestions at some point, let's not get into finger pointing.

[Kerrigan]

10) The only real way to stop the bickering: Close the politics lounge

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

10) The only real way to stop the bickering: Close the politics lounge

It would be a travesty if this was the only solution...

[loki74]

I would agree. There is a LOT of flamebaiting going on here. Thats the main issue I'm seeing. That and the infallable attitude you mentioned.

But I really don't want to see PL shut down. There are people here who I really like, and enjoy arguing with, because they make intellegent arguments, don't flamebait, actually read my posts, and most important of all, make me consider my own beliefs (isnt that the point of argument?). And then there are the people I generally agree with, can't go wrong with them .

I think its obvious what needs to change in the people here; the question is, how does one do it? How would the mods enforce such a policy without greatly affecting the people here who do for the most part follow the rules and make good arguments.

PS wouldn't this go in feedback?

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I think one of the biggest problems in the US right now is how fiercely partisan both its politicians and citizens have become. The US system of government was designed so that its citizens serve as an all-important check and balance to our government. An unconditional, partisan loyalty is hurtful to this country, and counters the ideals of democracy. I believe that in doing so, we have joined the politicians who seem more concerned with fighting each other than working in productive directions to solve actual problems.

This post is a call-for-action to stop being a part of the politicians' strategies, starting by cleaning up some of the nasty language and communication which goes on here.

Here are some specific suggestions I have for doing so:

1) Cut out the pointless little partisan cheap shots (e.g. liberals are such and such, conservatives are such and such). The thread about how George Bush is *fill in the blank*, I think was utterly pointless.

2) Recognize that your party of choice is not perfect or infallible. I consider myself a moderate liberal, but I hate that Howard Dean always seems to want to get in little cheap shots about Republicans when given the opportunity.

2b) Recognize that there is a balance and counter to any particular point of view. Not everything is in black and white. To balance my criticism of Howard Dean, one could point out that the Republicans are in power, and consequently the Democrats are less prominent of a voice right now. One might go as far as to say that they are being "shut out", but if you want to take such a strong stance, back up your viewpoint with some civil discussion so that it is not simply flame-bait.

3) Recognize that we all want the best thing for the country. Recognize the complexity of many issues, and all the nuanced arguments. Stop blindly cheering for your horse, and start contributing to a civilized discussion about the country.

4) Recognize that most of us here probably have pretty strong viewpoints which aren't likely to change. Respect other people's opinions rather than engaging in pissing contests and games designed to try to prove the other person "wrong".

5) If somebody has not made a point very clearly, don't twist their words around and use them to manipulate the tone of the discussion to present yourself in some righteous light. Ask for clarification, be respectful.

6) Avoid dangerous labels like something being the "best", "worst"... for instance, the "best" country. No one here can even begin to define a "best" country, this sort of discussion is completely counter-productive.

7) Stop arguing about pointless things such as whether Bush gave the media a thumbs up, index finger, or middle finger. It is interesting to use Photoshop and other tools to try to prove yourself as right, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.

8) Don't hide in anonymity of the internet by changing nicknames to piss people off, or whatever. Speak to people like you would in person. If these forums are affecting your life so much that you find yourself compelled to do this sort of thing, perhaps it's best to take a time out? This sort of obsession is probably not healthy.

9) Just be nice, damnit. We are all very smart people, act like it. Speak intelligently, civilly, etc. Treat people like you would want to be treated. Blah blah blah.

* disclaimer: I'm not perfect, I may have broken my own rules/suggestions at some point, let's not get into finger pointing.

As for moving it to feedback, nope, not gonna happen. I'll leave it right here where the usual suspects can read it and maybe see the folly in their behavior, even though they probably won't.

[vmarks]

Except that there is petty partisanship which abounds in government, so why shouldn't it also be reflected in the citizenry?

If we face facts, I have to modify your 'we all want the best for our country' to read 'we all want the best for our country when the best happens on our watch so we can take credit for it.'

It's easy to see this at work: Clinton proposed wide reforms to social security, and democrats were in favor of it. Bush proposes it, and they are opposed. Clinton bombs Iraq and Republicans oppose, Bush bombs Iraq, and (at first all Congress agrees followed by) Democrats oppose.

When politicians choose to be petty and underhanded, and people take their talking points from politicians mouths, what else do you expect?

Thank you for mentioning that you bristle at Mr. Dean's inflammatory speech.

[Doofy]

11) Recognise that there are people from countries other than the US here.

(realising that this invalidates the majority of suggestion #3)

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

It's easy to see this at work: Clinton proposed wide reforms to social security, and democrats were in favor of it. Bush proposes it, and they are opposed. Clinton bombs Iraq and Republicans oppose, Bush bombs Iraq, and (at first all Congress agrees followed by) Democrats oppose.

Nice to derail a thread about improving discourse here with more sloppy partisan discourse of the type being criticized. Democrats still support the reforms Clinton proposed. Clinton wanted to put more money into SS to pay for the obligations, Bush wants to divert money away from the reserves and into private accounts. They're complete opposites, and there's no inconsistency whatsoever in supporting one but opposing the other.

On Iraq, Republicans didn't oppose Clinton's bombing of Iraq, they supported it, and Bush didn't just "bomb" Iraq - what he did was a tad more controversial, though I do think it's fair to criticize Democrats like Kerry for supporting the war in the first place.

[mitchell_pgh]

I would also say that many people that freak out in the lounge would be normal mild mannered citizens if you crossed paths in the real world.

I also feel there is a considerable amount of "my country is better than your country" going around.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I would also say that many people that freak out in the lounge would be normal mild mannered citizens if you crossed paths in the real world.

Scary, isn't it?

[mojo2]

Why not put links on the bottom right hand side of each page which permit navigating back to the P/L thread page and/or the MacNN Lounge page without having to scroll back to the top each time? Do the links HAVE to be located at the TOP LEFT HAND SIDE of the page ONLY?

BTW, I NEVER use the "Forum Jump" drop down menu. Does anyone here use it? To what extent do you use it?

[budster101]

Recognize that if you are Christian or Catholic you have a bulls eye placed on your nickname for all eternity in these forums and many will just post in your thread to crap all over it.

No Stalking.

[Kerrigan]

Catholics are Christians too!

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by budster101

Recognize that if you are Christian or Catholic you have a bulls eye placed on your nickname for all eternity in these forums and many will just post in your thread to crap all over it.

No Stalking.

I'd say shut the whole thing down, but then all these threads/posters would move to the main lounge or the regular Mac threads (or the Mods would be kept busy banning nicks and locking threads in perpetuity.) The PL is a mockery of intelligent discussion, but what would any great city be without a sewer system? It keeps all the crap confined to one place.

Rather, I'd ask why there hasn't been a stricter enforcement of keeping PL threads in the PL, like that homosexuality thing that's still floating around in the main lounge.

[budster101]

What is wrong with the homosexuality thread in the Lounge? It's not political nor is it religous...

[Kerrigan]

The homo thread in the Lounge is quite entertaining. Zimphire very nearly de-railed it but it managed to stay friendly and, uh, irreverent.

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by budster101

What is wrong with the homosexuality thread in the Lounge? It's not political nor is it religous...

Perhaps in a perfect world it wouldn't be political or religious, but in this world, it is -- just like abortion. Someday, when the left wing isn't filing lawsuits to strike down DOMA laws and the right wing isn't trying to hastily amend constitutions to head off said legal challenges, when there aren't legislative battles over whether homosexuals should be allowed to adopt children, when there aren't lobbying groups called things like "Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation" and "Family Research Council", I will agree that this issue isn't political or religious.

But you do have an interesting point, because there are perhaps some non-political issues likely to erupt into flame-fests...

[mojo2]

Stop being so binarilly exclusive.

Fast food must die in favor of fine dining? No way! Let's have BOTH!

An ORGANIC-KEEP IT REAL lounge where the kind of stuff besson3c advocates will thrive.
A PLAY PEN where the footballers and kids who like to play roughhouse can go and not feel intimidated by those who are long winded or those with advanced degrees. It would also be a place where one wouldn't feel that every single freaking word they say is going to get them kicked out of the joint.

As so many of us enjoy name calling and partisan politicking and etc. why not have a place that allows this AND the other without forcing ONE lounge to accommodate both popular modes of exchange or forcing everyone to conform to a hard to describe, hard to equitably enforce milquetoast standard?

(Having ONE P/L Lounge is like watching NOTHING but PBS all the time!!! And/or expecting PBS to broadcast NFL Football AND Bill Maher AND Desperate Housewives AND Jerry Springer AND Bill O'Reilly in addition to the normal PBS fare.)

Btw, I feel I have the right to suggest this as I am not merely a 100 post newbie (who comes in and advocates shutting the place down) AND because I have donated to the cause. Anyone who is really concerned about the future of MacNN can put their $$ where their mouths are by clicking the 'donate' link (located on EVERY page) below and making a PayPal donation to MacNN.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Except that there is petty partisanship which abounds in government, so why shouldn't it also be reflected in the citizenry?

It's perfectly understandable, but what I'm calling for is for us to transcend the standard our politicians have set, and steer the country into the direction we want it to go.

A cynic would say that the people don't have that much power and influence, an optimist would say that we do. I'm saying, let's at least decide to start small and steer these forums in the direction we want them to go.

I think most of us would agree that some sort of change is necessary, bickering and flaming hasn't accomplished a lot in here.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Stop being so binarilly exclusive.

Fast food must die in favor of fine dining? No way! Let's have BOTH!

An ORGANIC-KEEP IT REAL lounge where the kind of stuff besson3c advocates will thrive.
A PLAY PEN where the footballers and kids who like to play roughhouse can go and not feel intimidated by those who are long winded or those with advanced degrees. It would also be a place where one wouldn't feel that every single freaking word they say is going to get them kicked out of the joint.

As so many of us enjoy name calling and partisan politicking and etc. why not have a place that allows this AND the other without forcing ONE lounge to accommodate both popular modes of exchange or forcing everyone to conform to a hard to describe, hard to equitably enforce milquetoast standard?

(Having ONE P/L Lounge is like watching NOTHING but PBS all the time!!! And/or expecting PBS to broadcast NFL Football AND Bill Maher AND Desperate Housewives AND Jerry Springer AND Bill O'Reilly in addition to the normal PBS fare.)

Btw, I feel I have the right to suggest this as I am not merely a 100 post newbie (who comes in and advocates shutting the place down) AND because I have donated to the cause. Anyone who is really concerned about the future of MacNN can put their $$ where their mouths are by clicking the 'donate' link (located on EVERY page) below and making a PayPal donation to MacNN.

I laughed to myself when I read the idea of creating a playpen

It is funny that you think some people would enjoy conversing in a place known as the playpen. To each their own, of course. I wouldn't spend any time in the playpen, and I'd be cynical about the prospects of what goes on in the playpen not leaking into and derailing good threads, but I don't mean to sound holier than thou. Perhaps some people would enjoy playing in a playpen?

[Ω]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Btw, I feel I have the right to suggest this as I am not merely a 100 post newbie (who comes in and advocates shutting the place down) AND because I have donated to the cause. Anyone who is really concerned about the future of MacNN can put their $$ where their mouths are by clicking the 'donate' link (located on EVERY page) below and making a PayPal donation to MacNN.

I see your quote and raise you with this one:

Originally Posted by tooki

Regardless, I wouldn't recommend that anyone contribute. None of us forum admins have any way at all of guaranteeing that even one cent of donation would actually go to the designated goal.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by besson3c

It's perfectly understandable, but what I'm calling for is for us to transcend the standard our politicians have set, and steer the country into the direction we want it to go.

A cynic would say that the people don't have that much power and influence, an optimist would say that we do. I'm saying, let's at least decide to start small and steer these forums in the direction we want them to go.

I think most of us would agree that some sort of change is necessary, bickering and flaming hasn't accomplished a lot in here.

Stop behaving like a flaming, fuzzy brained, bleeding heart liberal!

Just thought I'd have a laugh by exemplifying the issue at hand.

You want a place where you can intelligently and calmly exchange ideas and debate issues in the spirit of academic exploration and fraternal civility.

I want that too.

However, I ALSO want a place where I can show my ass and argue without ANY thought of being fair, civilized or polite. This is a form of recreation I can't get any other way.

Think about it.

Where, in this society today, can a man work out his frustrations and just act a fool without hurting themselves or anyone else or creating lasting REAL animosities, and not get arrested nor ruin a relationship and accomplish all of these for free (paintball costs $$)?

Think about more than just your own selfish elitist desires for once in your life! You liberals are all alike!!!

See? Wasn't that fun?

You don't really wants to eliminate that level of discourse do you???

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Ω

I see your quote and raise you with this one:

I WANT A REFUND!!!!!

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

A healthy political system doesn’t mean/has never meant/will never mean that everyone gets along with everyone else, that there aren’t political factions that disagree vehemently with each other, and that there aren’t heated political debates and outright flame-fests.

A healthy political system means that people have the freedom to disagree with each other, the freedom to form political factions that disagree fervently/passionately/all-out with one another, and the freedom for those disagreements to erupt in heated arguments. Human nature all but dictates therefore, that in a truly free system this is virtually 100% guaranteed.

A (seeming) lack of political disagreement, and (seeming) lack of diametrically opposed political factions, has always been an illusion, and never will be a sign of anything all that good.

It seems to me, if you can’t fathom the fact that people being (strongly) politically opposed to one another is a human reality, and that healthy political debate will never be without a considerable degree of friction, then you probably –whether you’ll admit it or not- have at least just the slightest tendency toward a problem with other people having the freedom to form rock-solid opinions which a good many are not likely to waver from merely to please someone else’s whims.

The idea of closing something down or segregating it because you don’t like the bickering? Ideas surely at the very pinnacle of political freedom, I'm sure.

People will argue. People will bicker. People will fight. People will discuss political subjects rationally… or irrationally. They’ll do so with anger, with joy, with rage, with sadness, with laughter, with whatever. They’ll often take cheap shots. They’ll often make good points. They’ll often make lousy ones. People will be fiercely partisan… or not. And none of this is anything new. Does anyone truly think there was a time when any of this wasn’t the case? People in the past have had raging blood-feud disagreements over issues a lot more immediately life and death than half the spoiled, shallow crap most political debates revolve around these days.

As for the lounge, we all have the freedom to like it just the way it is, bickering and all… or hate it and stay away from it.

I believe the truly great thing about all of this is not some wished-for (and always to remain imaginary) lack of political friction- but the fact that all of these things, good and bad, are the fruit of true political freedom.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I laughed to myself when I read the idea of creating a playpen

It is funny that you think some people would enjoy conversing in a place known as the playpen. To each their own, of course. I wouldn't spend any time in the playpen, and I'd be cynical about the prospects of what goes on in the playpen not leaking into and derailing good threads, but I don't mean to sound holier than thou. Perhaps some people would enjoy playing in a playpen?

Ahh, see? Yours is the kind of attitude that would WONDERFULLY fuel any number of insults.

(Exxagerated French accent) "Zoot alors! How can anyone be so, so STUPID to think ANYONE would ever enjoy conversing in such a place known as a "PLAYPEN? How PEDESTRIAN! Hmm, I haf ze pehrfect solution! Let zem eet cake!"

besson3c, you are beautiful, man!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Just thought I'd have a laugh by exemplifying the issue at hand.

You want a place where you can intelligently and calmly exchange ideas and debate issues in the spirit of academic exploration and fraternal civility.

I want that too.

However, I ALSO want a place where I can show my ass and argue without ANY thought of being fair, civilized or polite. This is a form of recreation I can't get any other way.

Think about it.

Where, in this society today, can a man work out his frustrations and just act a fool without hurting themselves or anyone else or creating lasting REAL animosities, and not get arrested nor ruin a relationship and accomplish all of these for free (paintball costs $$)?

If a Fight Club-style forum is what it takes, as skeptical I am that something like this would do the world some good, I'd support the creation of a place like this and simply choose to steer clear of it. Otherwise, it is unfair to just assume that everybody in here would be insensitive enough or whatever enough to enjoy such cruel treatment of each other. I would be offended by what you wrote just now if it were addressed to me, and I have pretty thick skin. There is nothing "wrong" with me for being offended, it is your problem just as much as it is mine.

I think there is a certain danger in the idea of a Fight Club forum. It is too easy to hit and run here, and this simply isn't fair when you *are* hurting others. How could a place be created where people are also held accountable for their actions? Where are these lines drawn? Why does such a place need to exist to feed some weird sadistic sickness? I have a hard time believing that people will come flocking to a forum advertised "come one, come all... treat people like sh*t and be treated like sh*t!", but whatever.

Maybe we need a mod or some sort of authority to make a decision about this. I suspect the forums were *intended* to work like I've described. You may have to accept that the mods don't wish to create a Fight Club board. I wouldn't if I were them. If they decide to not, what will people like you do to blow off some steam?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

A healthy political system doesn’t mean/has never meant/will never mean that everyone gets along with everyone else, that there aren’t political factions that disagree vehemently with each other, and that there aren’t heated political debates and outright flame-fests.

A healthy political system means that people have the freedom to disagree with each other, the freedom to form political factions that disagree fervently/passionately/all-out with one another, and the freedom for those disagreements to erupt in heated arguments. Human nature all but dictates therefore, that in a truly free system this is virtually 100% guaranteed.

A (seeming) lack of political disagreement, and (seeming) lack of diametrically opposed political factions, has always been an illusion, and never will be a sign of anything all that good.

It seems to me, if you can’t fathom the fact that people being (strongly) politically opposed to one another is a human reality, and that healthy political debate will never be without a considerable degree of friction, then you probably –whether you’ll admit it or not- have at least just the slightest tendency toward a problem with other people having the freedom to form rock-solid opinions which a good many are not likely to waver from merely to please someone else’s whims.

The idea of closing something down or segregating it because you don’t like the bickering? Ideas surely at the very pinnacle of political freedom, I'm sure.

People will argue. People will bicker. People will fight. People will discuss political subjects rationally… or irrationally. They’ll do so with anger, with joy, with rage, with sadness, with laughter, with whatever. They’ll often take cheap shots. They’ll often make good points. They’ll often make lousy ones. People will be fiercely partisan… or not. And none of this is anything new. Does anyone truly think there was a time when any of this wasn’t the case? People in the past have had raging blood-feud disagreements over issues a lot more immediately life and death than half the spoiled, shallow crap most political debates revolve around these days.

As for the lounge, we all have the freedom to like it just the way it is, bickering and all… or hate it and stay away from it.

I believe the truly great thing about all of this is not some wished-for (and always to remain imaginary) lack of political friction- but the fact that all of these things, good and bad, are the fruit of true political freedom.

Wait til YOUR ass gets banned from the P/L then let's see how you feel. Elitist xxxxs.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

A healthy political system doesn’t mean/has never meant/will never mean that everyone gets along with everyone else, that there aren’t political factions that disagree vehemently with each other, and that there aren’t heated political debates and outright flame-fests.

A healthy political system means that people have the freedom to disagree with each other, the freedom to form political factions that disagree fervently/passionately/all-out with one another, and the freedom for those disagreements to erupt in heated arguments. Human nature all but dictates therefore, that in a truly free system this is virtually 100% guaranteed.

A (seeming) lack of political disagreement, and (seeming) lack of diametrically opposed political factions, has always been an illusion, and never will be a sign of anything all that good.

It seems to me, if you can’t fathom the fact that people being (strongly) politically opposed to one another is a human reality, and that healthy political debate will never be without a considerable degree of friction, then you probably –whether you’ll admit it or not- have at least just the slightest tendency toward a problem with other people having the freedom to form rock-solid opinions which a good many are not likely to waver from merely to please someone else’s whims.

The idea of closing something down or segregating it because you don’t like the bickering? Ideas surely at the very pinnacle of political freedom, I'm sure.

People will argue. People will bicker. People will fight. People will discuss political subjects rationally… or irrationally. They’ll do so with anger, with joy, with rage, with sadness, with laughter, with whatever. They’ll often take cheap shots. They’ll often make good points. They’ll often make lousy ones. People will be fiercely partisan… or not. And none of this is anything new. Does anyone truly think there was a time when any of this wasn’t the case? People in the past have had raging blood-feud disagreements over issues a lot more immediately life and death than half the spoiled, shallow crap most political debates revolve around these days.

As for the lounge, we all have the freedom to like it just the way it is, bickering and all… or hate it and stay away from it.

I believe the truly great thing about all of this is not some wished-for (and always to remain imaginary) lack of political friction- but the fact that all of these things, good and bad, are the fruit of true political freedom.

I see your point, but if it is in direct response to me, allow me to make two clarifications:

1) I wasn't advocating shutting this place down.

2) I believe it is possible to have heated *AND* civil debate over something. Have you not witnessed or been part of a civil, yet heated debate before?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

We all only own our political opinons Mojo- not the forum!

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I see your point, but if it is in direct response to me, allow me to make two clarifications:

1) I wasn't advocating shutting this place down.

2) I believe it is possible to have heated *AND* civil debate over something. Have you not witnessed or been part of a civil, yet heated debate before?

1- no, this wasn't in direct response to you.

2- Of course.
First of all, to my knowledge no one has ever truly been harmed by any debate held here, so I’d classify all of it as inherently “civil”, unless anyone’s been taking any of this WAY too seriously. Also, “free and open debate” to me means free and open debate, as in: free to be as heated/calm, civi/uncivil, partisan/non-partisan as the participants make it.

Actually I've seen a number of these "Gee, wouldn't the lounge be so much better IF..." threads in the past, and yet I still don't think human nature and the nature of political debate will ever change... nor do I really think that's so terrible.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

1- no, this wasn't in direct response to you.

2- Of course.
First of all, to my knowledge no one has ever truly been harmed by any debate held here, so I’d classify all of it as inherently “civil”, unless anyone’s been taking any of this WAY too seriously. Also, “free and open debate” to me means free and open debate, as in: free to be as heated/calm, civi/uncivil, partisan/non-partisan as the participants make it.

Actually I've seen a number of these "Gee, wouldn't the lounge be so much better IF..." threads in the past, and yet I still don't think human nature and the nature of political debate will ever change... nor do I really think that's so terrible.

Perhaps we need a mod to actually put us on the same page as to what this forums was designed for.

There has been a ton of friction and animosity created on these boards as a whole, people being banned, angry/upset at being banned, etc. Being pissed off is a form of hurt in some ways, and it damages the community spirit here. It can be avoided.

I know my post was incredibly idealistic, and probably won't change a single thing. You're probably right about that.

At the very least, a testosterone-fest is exclusive to some members who may otherwise wish to participate. Again, perhaps the rules need to be more clearly established.

[budster101]

The rules are established.

Did you read them?

You are not your political party. You are not the country you live in. You are not the contents of your wallet. You are not the man/woman you voted for. You are not your talking points. You are certainly not your damned khakis. You are not the all-knowing, all-seeing ruler of the world. You are not a unique snowflake. Snowflakes can't type.

---

First rule of the Political Lounge: No personal attacks.

Second rule of the Political Lounge: No personal attacks.

Third rule of the Political Lounge: Don't take it personally.

Fourth rule of the Political Lounge: All other forum rules apply.

Fifth rule of the Political Lounge: Think before you post.

Sixth rule of the Political Lounge: No shirt, no shoes, no service. Wait..scratch that. Clothing is completely optional. Just don't tell us.

Seventh rule of the Political Lounge: Threads go on as long as they have to. Lockination shouldn't occur too often if the other rules are followed.

Eighth rule of the Political Lounge: No posting and running. Give an opinion, your slant, anything in regards to what you're posting. Simply posting a news story and no context or direction is not conducive to fostering discussion. Avoid it.

Ninth rule of the Political Lounge: You will have respect for other posters and their right to opposing viewpoints.

My favorite rule is the one about "Clothing being optional"

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

The rules are established.

Did you read them?



My favorite rule is the one about "Clothing being optional"

I haven't read them in a long time, but in my defense I suppose it is easy to forget they exist since they aren't aggressively enforced in this lounge.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by besson3c

If a Fight Club-style forum is what it takes, as skeptical I am that something like this would do the world some good, I'd support the creation of a place like this and simply choose to steer clear of it. Otherwise, it is unfair to just assume that everybody in here would be insensitive enough or whatever enough to enjoy such cruel treatment of each other. I would be offended by what you wrote just now if it were addressed to me, and I have pretty thick skin. There is nothing "wrong" with me for being offended, it is your problem just as much as it is mine.

I think there is a certain danger in the idea of a Fight Club forum. It is too easy to hit and run here, and this simply isn't fair when you *are* hurting others. How could a place be created where people are also held accountable for their actions? Where are these lines drawn? Why does such a place need to exist to feed some weird sadistic sickness? I have a hard time believing that people will come flocking to a forum advertised "come one, come all... treat people like sh*t and be treated like sh*t!", but whatever.

Maybe we need a mod or some sort of authority to make a decision about this. I suspect the forums were *intended* to work like I've described. You may have to accept that the mods don't wish to create a Fight Club board. I wouldn't if I were them.

We segregate words...acceptable words and BAD words.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=264760

Google and many progressive companies have areas where their employees can go to blow off steam and just re-create themselves.

Other than a few black and white, NO APPEAL, instant virtual lifetime bannination issues (physical threats, stalking, spamming, viruses and the like) everything is fair game. (Other restrictions might be advisable that I can't think of here and now.)

YES, besson3c. Man has a need, a hunger for the dark things, for the things that are not satisfied by the noble high minded aspects of our character. Chitterlings and chicken wings. Anal sex and S/M. The Rolling Stones and Marilyn Manson. Rugby and Ultimate Fighting. Witchcraft and Voodoo. Bram Stoker and Edgar Allen Poe. Richard Lewis, Lewis Black, Lenny Bruce and Steven Wright. Citizen Kane and Leaving Las Vegas. The Oakland Raiders. Sonny Liston and Mike Tyson. Slam Dancing, Tango and Dirty Dancing.

The dark and dangerous, scary and forbidden spills out into besson3c's consciousness such that he would spend time and thought lobbying against it. There is no shortage of posters who lament the partisan politicking, the bickering , the nastiness. They think a simple appeal will halt human nature?

Will it?

No. To think so is stupidity.

They think legislating and enacting MORE RULES against an aspect of behavior and human nature that the existing rules and enforcement have failed to control will do the trick.

Will it?

No. To think so is insanity.

If you are going to have the civilized "debating society" or "reading room" you seem to want, without enduring the darker, baser elements disturbing your tranquility it will require a separate room. Otherwise, live with it xxxxxxx.

If they decide to not, what will people like you do to blow off some steam?

I, and people like me will continue doing those things that prompt your original post. You will have wasted your time. Thanks for your opinions. Now, sit down and take it, or leave and write a song about it.

By the way, any of the things I've said here that may seem offensive to you are not meant seriously but are inserted in this post as a way to demonstrate the need for a room such as you have described as well as another room where this kind of insulting and rude interaction might be enjoyed.

Vivre la difference. Vivre la guerre.

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Vivre la difference. Vivre la guerre.

And vive les asinine spelling corrections.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Perhaps we need a mod to actually put us on the same page as to what this forums was designed for.

There has been a ton of friction and animosity created on these boards as a whole, people being banned, angry/upset at being banned, etc. Being pissed off is a form of hurt in some ways, and it damages the community spirit here. It can be avoided.

I know my post was incredibly idealistic, and probably won't change a single thing. You're probably right about that.

At the very least, a testosterone-fest is exclusive to some members who may otherwise wish to participate. Again, perhaps the rules need to be more clearly established.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t personally disagree with your suggestions. I just think all of the bickering comes with the territory. I truly don’t believe it can be effectively moderated away- nor do I think any such attempt ever results in anything other than a cheap illusion.

There do seem to be two separate ideas going on here: freedom of debate is one thing. Breaking the forum rules is something else altogether. The forum itself isn’t a democracy, and people will be banned (and therefore I guess feel ‘hurt’ over such) whether there was any attempt to somehow moderate everyone onto the same page, or not.

[budster101]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I haven't read them in a long time, but in my defense I suppose it is easy to forget they exist since they aren't aggressively enforced in this lounge.

So your beef is with the Moderators and Administrators, not those who frequent the forums and flame or troll...

The rules are there for all to read as a sticky. I don't think there is much else they can do except maybe enforce the rules with an iron fist and enlisth ghastopo (sp) tactics. Are you the type to believe in a military state as well? I'm for less restrictions not more. Now I challenge those in here who would pigeonhole me as a conserative to try and do so after reading this one.

Libertarian, with both conservative and liberal leanings.... talk about a mess.

[mojo2]

I don't want to tell you that you should find enjoyment in the kind of exchange I like. But how can you or anyone who says they are senitive, fair and/or moderate propose that everyone must ignore the type of discourse that gives them enjoyment and adopt YOUR standard? If you can't put up with mine, why should I put up with yours?

Now, take the differences we have here and think about what we have done with some of our other differences in society.

Each religion can worship as they wish. You are free to legally live as your sexual orientation dictates.

You don't have to live among straight people if that makes you uncomfortable. But if you do, you make the choice. Catholics and Protestants live and worhip together or separately, as they choose.

Separate rooms makes sense and is fair to all.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

And vive les asinine spelling corrections.

But 'zoot alors' is ok, huh?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I haven't read them in a long time, but in my defense I suppose it is easy to forget they exist since they aren't aggressively enforced in this lounge.

You wouldn't even know the difference!

A NUMBER of posters have been banned from the P/L and you don't even mention that. There are a bunch of posters who have been enforced out of here. You are starting to remind me of a whiny liberal fuzzy who has to have everything THEY want in just the way THEY want it and anyone else's needs aren't as important as YOURS! And when something is done in your favor it is NEVER enough.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I think one of the biggest problems in the US right now is how fiercely partisan both its politicians and citizens have become. The US system of government was designed so that its citizens serve as an all-important check and balance to our government. An unconditional, partisan loyalty is hurtful to this country, and counters the ideals of democracy. I believe that in doing so, we have joined the politicians who seem more concerned with fighting each other than working in productive directions to solve actual problems.

This post is a call-for-action to stop being a part of the politicians' strategies, starting by cleaning up some of the nasty language and communication which goes on here.

Here are some specific suggestions I have for doing so:

1) Cut out the pointless little partisan cheap shots (e.g. liberals are such and such, conservatives are such and such). The thread about how George Bush is *fill in the blank*, I think was utterly pointless.

2) Recognize that your party of choice is not perfect or infallible. I consider myself a moderate liberal, but I hate that Howard Dean always seems to want to get in little cheap shots about Republicans when given the opportunity.

2b) Recognize that there is a balance and counter to any particular point of view. Not everything is in black and white. To balance my criticism of Howard Dean, one could point out that the Republicans are in power, and consequently the Democrats are less prominent of a voice right now. One might go as far as to say that they are being "shut out", but if you want to take such a strong stance, back up your viewpoint with some civil discussion so that it is not simply flame-bait.

3) Recognize that we all want the best thing for the country. Recognize the complexity of many issues, and all the nuanced arguments. Stop blindly cheering for your horse, and start contributing to a civilized discussion about the country.

4) Recognize that most of us here probably have pretty strong viewpoints which aren't likely to change. Respect other people's opinions rather than engaging in pissing contests and games designed to try to prove the other person "wrong".

5) If somebody has not made a point very clearly, don't twist their words around and use them to manipulate the tone of the discussion to present yourself in some righteous light. Ask for clarification, be respectful.

6) Avoid dangerous labels like something being the "best", "worst"... for instance, the "best" country. No one here can even begin to define a "best" country, this sort of discussion is completely counter-productive.

7) Stop arguing about pointless things such as whether Bush gave the media a thumbs up, index finger, or middle finger. It is interesting to use Photoshop and other tools to try to prove yourself as right, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.

8) Don't hide in anonymity of the internet by changing nicknames to piss people off, or whatever. Speak to people like you would in person. If these forums are affecting your life so much that you find yourself compelled to do this sort of thing, perhaps it's best to take a time out? This sort of obsession is probably not healthy.

9) Just be nice, damnit. We are all very smart people, act like it. Speak intelligently, civilly, etc. Treat people like you would want to be treated. Blah blah blah.

* disclaimer: I'm not perfect, I may have broken my own rules/suggestions at some point, let's not get into finger pointing.

By the way...

Although I'M not bothered by the things you say in your original post, I would think someone as intelligent and as sensitive as you would realize HOW FREAKING INSULTING parts of your post is.

If I were the OP of the "GEORGES BUSH IS..." or the "Best/Worst" threads I would feel very insulted. But that's just me.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by mojo2

We segregate words...acceptable words and BAD words.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=264760

Google and many progressive companies have areas where their employees can go to blow off steam and just re-create themselves.

Other than a few black and white, NO APPEAL, instant virtual lifetime bannination issues (physical threats, stalking, spamming, viruses and the like) everything is fair game. (Other restrictions might be advisable that I can't think of here and now.)

YES, besson3c. Man has a need, a hunger for the dark things, for the things that are not satisfied by the noble high minded aspects of our character. Chitterlings and chicken wings. Anal sex and S/M. The Rolling Stones and Marilyn Manson. Rugby and Ultimate Fighting. Witchcraft and Voodoo. Bram Stoker and Edgar Allen Poe. Richard Lewis, Lewis Black, Lenny Bruce and Steven Wright. Citizen Kane and Leaving Las Vegas. The Oakland Raiders. Sonny Liston and Mike Tyson. Slam Dancing, Tango and Dirty Dancing.

The dark and dangerous, scary and forbidden spills out into besson3c's consciousness such that he would spend time and thought lobbying against it. There is no shortage of posters who lament the partisan politicking, the bickering , the nastiness. They think a simple appeal will halt human nature?

Will it?

No. To think so is stupidity.

They think legislating and enacting MORE RULES against an aspect of behavior and human nature that the existing rules and enforcement have failed to control will do the trick.

Will it?

No. To think so is insanity.

If you are going to have the civilized "debating society" or "reading room" you seem to want, without enduring the darker, baser elements disturbing your tranquility it will require a separate room. Otherwise, live with it xxxxxxx.



I, and people like me will continue doing those things that prompt your original post. You will have wasted your time. Thanks for your opinions. Now, sit down and take it, or leave and write a song about it.

By the way, any of the things I've said here that may seem offensive to you are not meant seriously but are inserted in this post as a way to demonstrate the need for a room such as you have described as well as another room where this kind of insulting and rude interaction might be enjoyed.

Vivre la difference. Vivre la guerre.

If you don't want to have a discussion about the current status of the forum and blow off my ideas as being futile, not feasible, simply swimming against the tide of natural human proclivity, fine. Point well taken.

However, there are existing rules in place in this forum. One is respect. In your post, you were clearly mocking me, framing me as a pansy, and labeling me as some high-minded prude, or something of this nature.

In your last sentence you attempt to qualify everything you've said by saying that you don't mean offenses to be taken seriously. I have a better idea: how about you stop trying to offend people? In doing so, you are not only being disrespectful to the poster you are trying to one-up, but being disrespectful to the rules already in place here. Little kids say mean things and follow them up by assuring "just kidding". Adults need to be accountable for their words and actions.

I know your (predictable) response will be to blow off what I'm saying, maybe taking a few pot-shots here and there in the process. It seems quite clear that you are looking for a good scrap. I know I've given you some good ammo with my sharp response here. I'll choose to ignore your responses if you choose to respond outside the boundaries of civil discourse, because obviously we've hit a stopping point. I've made my point. I have little more to say.

Could you kindly wait and see what the general consensus is, what the mods want to do, and respect these wishes? If nobody else is interested in civil political discourse, fine. I won't be pissy about this. If they are, could you please recognize how aggressive posturing can ruin a perfectly good forum for others?

Thanks for your understanding.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by mojo2

I don't want to tell you that you should find enjoyment in the kind of exchange I like. But how can you or anyone who says they are senitive, fair and/or moderate propose that everyone must ignore the type of discourse that gives them enjoyment and adopt YOUR standard? If you can't put up with mine, why should I put up with yours?

Now, take the differences we have here and think about what we have done with some of our other differences in society.

Each religion can worship as they wish. You are free to legally live as your sexual orientation dictates.

You don't have to live among straight people if that makes you uncomfortable. But if you do, you make the choice. Catholics and Protestants live and worhip together or separately, as they choose.

Separate rooms makes sense and is fair to all.

I'm perfectly happy to help support a playpen area, or whatever you want to call it. I'm sorry if my framing it as a little odd offended you. I can live without having to fully understand everything.

However, I don't agree that I'm asking everybody to abide by my standards. I initially posted under the assumption that my goals were shared. After you informed me otherwise, I can fully see the wisdom in a separate area for whatever it is that you'd like for me to call what you'd like to do. I don't think that these two areas can co-exist effectively though. Aggressive tactics tend to dominate and hijack. It makes it difficult for me to "put up with your style". Do you agree?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by besson3c

If you don't want to have a discussion about the current status of the forum and blow off my ideas as being futile, not feasible, simply swimming against the tide of natural human proclivity, fine. Point well taken.

However, there are existing rules in place in this forum. One is respect. In your post, you were clearly mocking me, framing me as a pansy, and labeling me as some high-minded prude, or something of this nature.

In your last sentence you attempt to qualify everything you've said by saying that you don't mean offenses to be taken seriously. I have a better idea: how about you stop trying to offend people? In doing so, you are not only being disrespectful to the poster you are trying to one-up, but being disrespectful to the rules already in place here. Little kids say mean things and follow them up by assuring "just kidding". Adults need to be accountable for their words and actions.

I know your (predictable) response will be to blow off what I'm saying, maybe taking a few pot-shots here and there in the process. It seems quite clear that you are looking for a good scrap. I know I've given you some good ammo with my sharp response here. I'll choose to ignore your responses if you choose to respond outside the boundaries of civil discourse, because obviously we've hit a stopping point. I've made my point. I have little more to say.

Could you kindly wait and see what the general consensus is, what the mods want to do, and respect these wishes? If nobody else is interested in civil political discourse, fine. I won't be pissy about this. If they are, could you please recognize how aggressive posturing can ruin a perfectly good forum for others?

Thanks for your understanding.

Actually, if things were reversed and instead of the P/L we currently know and love, there was a dark P/L and a regular poster in that dark P/L complained that there were too many civil and intellectual discussions ruining the anarchic feel of that lounge I would probably argue for an alternate kind of lounge where intellectual and/or serious, and/or good natured debate was encouraged and nurtured.

Actually, I bear you no ill feelings atall, atall. And that, I feel is the point.

When you engage in serious debate you invest yourself. You make yourself open to the other person's humanity and invite them to do the same with you. An unspoken and implicit trust that can lead to a bond being created.

When you insult and attack and slam someone it is with the same intent as one might have when employing a hooker. It is a release. It is enjoyable, fun. It means nothing beyond the immediate thrill. I don't want to know your humanity. I want to deny it exists. I am not opening up to you and I don't want to. I don't want you to open up to me and I don't expect you to.

Maybe think of it as one would a scary movie or an amusement park.

You have your fun. You know none of it is real. You don't expect the monster to go home with you. You don't intend for the other poster to get their feelings hurt beyond the momentary sting of an ego being punctured.

One is real. The other is fantasy. To mistakenly apply the sensitivities of one to the other is understandable.

There are times when I do attempt to make serious points, to interact with tact and compassion. And there are other times when I want to crank up the music and go 'head banging,' so to speak.

besson3c, I REALLY don't mean anything by my OBVIOUS insults in this thread and elsewhere. You will see evidence of this in my previous posts as well as in my future interactions with you.

There are times when people want to scrap with me. But if I don't feel like it I always find a way to avoid it. Sometimes I will scrap with that person and it's like a mutual unspoken engagement just as you engage in civil debate with someone. You both know the unspoken etiquette and abide by the rules. Just as two scrappers have rules of engagement.

You seem to be a nice, thoughtful and reasonable guy and as noble and understandable as your intentions seem to be, I don't want JUST the P/L you advocate. I don't just want a P/L the kind that I have called, a "play pen."

I believe there is justification and evidence supporting the need for both.

No cheap parting shots. I'm trying to make a serious point here.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by mojo2

You seem to be a nice, thoughtful and reasonable guy and as noble and understandable as your intentions seem to be, I don't want JUST the P/L you advocate. I don't just want a P/L the kind that I have called, a "play pen."

I believe there is justification and evidence supporting the need for both.

A need or desire for you to "get off" is not a justification for said need. (Wait a second, I sound like Zimphire.) What is fun for you may be hurtful to, or at the expense of, others. There are plenty of "anything goes" forums, why can't this one be different?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by AKcrab

A need or desire for you to "get off" is not a justification for said need. (Wait a second, I sound like Zimphire.) What is fun for you may be hurtful to, or at the expense of, others. There are plenty of "anything goes" forums, why can't this one be different?

Well, let's see...shall I answer seriously or in a fun manner?

Let's do both.

AKcrab, thank you so much for your reply to my comments. I do take the issue of establishing a separate (but equal) lounge where spirited exchanges of insults and crude, rude comments between posters might be the norm, quite seriously and I hope you and anyone reading this would clearly understand that I do not propose changing the current P/L at all.

I merely suggest there be an additional lounge here at MacNN which might be the online equivalent as the fictional bar on TV's "Cheers." It wasn't all that fancy or an overly intellectual kind of place but it was where a man could go to find the kind of enjoyment, stimulation and relaxation that real men don't often share with women. Where kidding, practical jokes and "playing the dozens" is alright and you can bust a guy's balls a little bit and not have to be so politically correct as to call it busting his chops. In short, I yearn for a place as comfortable to me as you and everyone else here feels comfortable here in the current P/L.

How would YOU feel if you had to stifle a good 40% of everything that came to mind?

That's what I have to do to experience the pleasures of MacNN's current P/L. With your support I would have the opportunity to speak as freely as you do.

Thanks for your reply.



AKcrab, lern to reed won't you???

This is AMERICA and even though you are waaaay off the beaten path we extend the blessings of Americanism to you guys, too.

Ok, ready?

If you re-read my post you will see I proposed a different P/L room be created. It was besson3c who wants to change the current lounge to be even MORE restrictive than it is! (Yikes! Anyone know if making the P/L completely anally restrictive is one of OBL's goals???!!! If so, then I have ONE thing to say...they're heeeeeeeeere.)

Anyway, back to my tutorial...

Ahem. When we here in AMERICA don't like something we are reading, we...can...stop...reading...it. It also follows that in an online forum with a civil lounge and a bangers lounge, if one doesn't like the nature of conversation or the exchanges there, one may get the xxxx out, repair to the safe tranquility of THE REGULAR P/L or go dine on mints and slices of quince and bark at the sight of the moon, the moon, the moon...

Please, go bark at the sight of the moon.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Please, go bark at the sight of the moon.

Woof!

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by AKcrab

Woof!

Wow! A typing crab!!!!!

[typoon]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I think one of the biggest problems in the US right now is how fiercely partisan both its politicians and citizens have become. The US system of government was designed so that its citizens serve as an all-important check and balance to our government. An unconditional, partisan loyalty is hurtful to this country, and counters the ideals of democracy. I believe that in doing so, we have joined the politicians who seem more concerned with fighting each other than working in productive directions to solve actual problems.

Sometimes Politicians inaction is the best thing for our country. While our Gov't was designed so that the citizens have all important check and blance to our governement it really doesn't matter who you vote for. The politicians will say one thing and do/stand for another.

This post is a call-for-action to stop being a part of the politicians' strategies, starting by cleaning up some of the nasty language and communication which goes on here.

Here are some specific suggestions I have for doing so:

1) Cut out the pointless little partisan cheap shots (e.g. liberals are such and such, conservatives are such and such). The thread about how George Bush is *fill in the blank*, I think was utterly pointless.

Unfortunately this will never happen. When people are partisan it will ALWAYS happen. It's the same thing when it comes to sports teams as well. This unfortunately will not change bacause people are passionate about their parties and their beliefs.

2) Recognize that your party of choice is not perfect or infallible. I consider myself a moderate liberal, but I hate that Howard Dean always seems to want to get in little cheap shots about Republicans when given the opportunity.

That is an inherent problem with people who are passionate about something. They don't think their party or whatever is infallible and if they are they try to rationalize it. A rational person who isn't blinded by their party is able to think more independently and come up with more rational ideas.

I wouldn't consider Howard Dean to be a moderate by any means.

2b) Recognize that there is a balance and counter to any particular point of view. Not everything is in black and white. To balance my criticism of Howard Dean, one could point out that the Republicans are in power, and consequently the Democrats are less prominent of a voice right now. One might go as far as to say that they are being "shut out", but if you want to take such a strong stance, back up your viewpoint with some civil discussion so that it is not simply flame-bait.

While that maybe true that there is a balance and a counter to any particular point of view. it is pretty easily seen in many statements by either party that it doesn't matter which party is in power. Also if you noticed before the Republicans got into power you didn't hear them as vocally as the democrats are today. It was only one the Democrats lost power have they become so vocal.

3) Recognize that we all want the best thing for the country. Recognize the complexity of many issues, and all the nuanced arguments. Stop blindly cheering for your horse, and start contributing to a civilized discussion about the country.

While this is a good idea it's never going to happen. People will always believe that their ideas are the "best for the country." You can still blindly follow your horse and still have a civilized discussion about the country. People will always be passionate about one issue or another.

4) Recognize that most of us here probably have pretty strong viewpoints which aren't likely to change. Respect other people's opinions rather than engaging in pissing contests and games designed to try to prove the other person "wrong".

Isn't that the point of a discussion or debate? To try and change people's ideas and to prove someone wrong? People have strong viewpoints and while some of their ideas most likely won't change. Any Rational person though might change their stance on something or change the way they think about something if they are shown better ideas or options.

5) If somebody has not made a point very clearly, don't twist their words around and use them to manipulate the tone of the discussion to present yourself in some righteous light. Ask for clarification, be respectful.

6) Avoid dangerous labels like something being the "best", "worst"... for instance, the "best" country. No one here can even begin to define a "best" country, this sort of discussion is completely counter-productive.

I agree with you on these 2

7) Stop arguing about pointless things such as whether Bush gave the media a thumbs up, index finger, or middle finger. It is interesting to use Photoshop and other tools to try to prove yourself as right, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.

Unfortunately that isn't going to happen. When people are passionate about something they will always find something pointless to bicker about. You are right though it doesn't really matter at the end of the day for some of the pointless topics.

This is what's great about a forum it allows people to discuss ANYTHING they wish no matter how pointless it may be.

8) Don't hide in anonymity of the internet by changing nicknames to piss people off, or whatever. Speak to people like you would in person. If these forums are affecting your life so much that you find yourself compelled to do this sort of thing, perhaps it's best to take a time out? This sort of obsession is probably not healthy.

This is one of the main problems with an internet forum of any type. People are able to hide behind the keyboard and the screen.

9) Just be nice, damnit. We are all very smart people, act like it. Speak intelligently, civilly, etc. Treat people like you would want to be treated. Blah blah blah.

* disclaimer: I'm not perfect, I may have broken my own rules/suggestions at some point, let's not get into finger pointing.

It's all well and good to want that but when people get passionate about something most of the time civility and intellegence go out the window.