[orry_main]

Now the Finder is brushed metal. Okaaaay. Consistency seems to be again going out the window. Has anyone ever figured out Apple's system for deciding what's metal and what's aqua? Is there some obscure HI guideline somewhere that explains it? Or is someone in Cupertino just flipping a coin? I honestly don't care too much one way or the other, but I was promised a lick-able interface and, well, I don't want to lick metal.

[RevEvs]

They are just using a magic eight ball to decide.

revs

[Jim Paradise]

Apple decided that ugly + inconsistent was in for the 10.3 iteration of OS X.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by orry_main:
I was promised a lick-able interface and, well, I don't want to lick metal.

Especially once the weather starts getting colder...

[Adam Betts]

Apps in Brushed Metal feel more expensive than in Aqua. A good thing, IMHO.

I think the best guidelines for using Brushed Metal is only innovative apps can use it.

[ryaxnb]

They do have some sort of decision-process - but I'm torn between two ideas: main window apps or consumer apps:
*Finder is consumer compared to Path Finder (sort of)
*iTunes is consumer-ish
*iPhoto is consumer compared to Photoshop (very)
*iMovie is, well, a consumer video editing app.
*Calculator is consumer-ish
*Safari is too
*iCal, iChat, iContact (Address Book) are consumer-ish too.
* Etc. If any left.
Main window:
*Finder. Apple is pushing one window, and besides, when doing more spatial-orientied stuff, it turns Aqua.
*iTunes has a main window
*iPhoto does, iMovie does, iCal does, Address Book does.
*iChat doesn't really.

[Geobunny]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Apps in Brushed Metal feel more expensive than in Aqua. A good thing, IMHO.

I think the best guidelines for using Brushed Metal is only innovative apps can use it.

You think the Finder is innovative?!

[00101001]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think brushed metal is *ugly*, but my problem with it is that it has the potential to be sooo much sweeter.

Take for example what Apple is doing in their pro apps, why can't apple make brushed metal look like this: ??



that, in my opition, looks better than funky random "brushed" texture.

[fat mac moron]

Aqua is so 2001.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by Geobunny:
You think the Finder is innovative?!

Believe it or not, yes.

• Better Labels without "coloring" the icon
• Folder Action
• Live Search
• Local iDisk
• Action Button
• Direct Network Access

[nforcer]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Believe it or not, yes.

• Better Labels without "coloring" the icon
• Folder Action
• Live Search
• Local iDisk
• Action Button
• Direct Network Access

Labels are just a resurrection of an OS 9 feature. Not coloring the icon is not innovation, merely a change of approach.

Folder Actions exist in 10.2, and have simply been made more accessible, so there are fewer steps needed to use them.

Live search is useful, but not really an "innovation" since iTunes and a few other apps have had it for a while. Good thing it was finally added to the Finder, however.

Localizing the iDisk is mostly bug fix / optimization to an otherwise slow and unwieldy feature (I cannot comment for the broadband people, since I have not used it on a broadband connection).

The Action button is just a way to point out to noobs some of the things they can do to a file, from a centralized place. Contextual menus have done this for a while now.

I consider something to be innovative when it does something that has not been done before. The Finder in Panther is not really innovative in this regard. It adds some features that have been sorely missed and needed by some, and it corrects some of the mistakes of the previous Finder. However it has a few mistakes of its own.

[mitchell_pgh]

I'm pro brushed metal. It signifies a strong interface. GUI freaks may bitch, but go use Windows or Linux for a second and you will realize just how nice it is... I think it's really bringing the OS together.

[dtriska]

I believe, originally, Apple intended brushed metal to be used for apps that interacted with or took the place of physical consumer products. For instance, iTunes took over the role of the stereo system, and got a brushed metal look. iSync interacted with various physical devices, and got a brushed metal look.

This, however, has changed and now I doubt anyone at Apple has a consistent idea on how brushed metal is supposed to be used.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by 00101001:
Don't get me wrong, I don't think brushed metal is *ugly*, but my problem with it is that it has the potential to be sooo much sweeter.

Take for example what Apple is doing in their pro apps, why can't apple make brushed metal look like this: ??



that, in my opition, looks better than funky random "brushed" texture.

It looks very clunky, bloated and dated like all the other operating systems that think gray is a fantastic colour for the UI. Aqua's great becasue it has that sleak and clean look to it that makes it look very modern.

[MusicalTone]

I dont think Apple follows any guidelines for this. They just decide as the go along.

[booboo]

AFAIAC the worst thing about brushed metal is that its appearance doesn't change when its in the background, so the distinction between live and background windows is greatly diminished.

Yes the widgets would help identification if

a) I could see them (they're i.e. not covered)
b) I could tolerate the traffic light 'theme', which I can't.

So why doesn't brushed metal take on a 'dimmed' appearance in the background?

[Ken Masters]

The truth of the matter is.....

People who like the screen found that the screen residue had small traces of radiation surrounding it therefore giving people tongue cancer.

Cancer that apple doesn't want their users to have, so the metal look will deter people from licking their computer screens.

Happy.

[pat++]

Originally posted by orry_main:
Is there some obscure HI guideline somewhere that explains it? Or is someone in Cupertino just flipping a coin?

'Someone' is called Steve. They just do whatever he says. And he really doesn't care about HI guidelines. Sad, but true.

[- - e r i k - -]

Having used Panther since WWDC I'm definitely getting used to all the metal. It feels modern and solid. They could tone the brushing a bit down though.

On the other hand, I'm just loving Apple's Pro Aqua.

[JLL]

Originally posted by pat++:
'Someone' is called Steve. They just do whatever he says. And he really doesn't care about HI guidelines. Sad, but true.

Yep, Jobs really has the time to see every little thing in Mac OS X and decide what to do with everything - furthermore he writes, directs and animates Pixar's movies.

[keston]

Metal feels "bulky" to me, with "fat" borders everywhere. It seems to take up more screen real-estate than it should, and responsiveness of metal finder window resizing seems slower.

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
Having used Panther since WWDC I'm definitely getting used to all the metal. It feels modern and solid. They could tone the brushing a bit down though.

On the other hand, I'm just loving Apple's Pro Aqua.

[tooki]

They're sadists. They want us to cut our tongues on the sharp edges when we lick it.

tooki

[:XI:]

Originally posted by pat++:
'Someone' is called Steve. They just do whatever he says. And he really doesn't care about HI guidelines. Sad, but true.

And just how the hell do you know this to be true? Steve is the one who likes everything to fit. Steve probably cares more than you. You think Steve dreams up everything in his office? I'd bet money that most of the ideas aren't his to begin with. Sure, he gives input, or goes up to the OS X team and says, 'look the finder blows, work on it for the next update. Make it friendly.' or whatever.

[00101001]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
It looks very clunky, bloated and dated like all the other operating systems that think gray is a fantastic colour for the UI. Aqua's great becasue it has that sleak and clean look to it that makes it look very modern.

Ahem, grayscale *is* a perfect color for a UI. But I'm not talking about color here � I'm talking about unnecessary use of texture. *Aqua*, I agree, is sleek, modern, and clean. I love it. *Brushed metal* is not aqua. *It* is bulky, bloated and ugly.

Anyone remember the days that Linux GUI makers decided that gratuitous texture was "cool" looking?

--->DO NOT POST HUGE INLINE IMAGES!!!<--- -- tooki
http://images.mandrakesoft.com/img/scr/mydesk3.jpg

Our brushed metal isn't that bad, granted... but it would look so sweet sans the pointless texture... just plain gray would be much more elegant in my opinion.

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by 00101001:


Take for example what Apple is doing in their pro apps, why can't apple make brushed metal look like this: ??

[snip]

that, in my opition, looks better than funky random "brushed" texture.

That looks credible. It even has a G5ish feel to it, the solid, matte surface.

The current brushed metal is as nineties (eighties!) as Bang&Olufsen.

J

[cpac]

actually I think metal is *more* consistently used now that the finder is metal.

think of the metal/aqua line as being a content viewing/content creation line and I think it makes more (though not yet complete) sense:

Metal/Content viewing/organizing:
iTunes
iPhoto
Finder
Quicktime
iChat
Safari
iCal
Address Book
DVD Player

Content Creation
Mail
TextEdit

(Exceptions: should be metal)
Preview
Sherlock

(Exceptions: should be Aqua)
iMovie

Just another theory to throw out there...

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by pat++:
'Someone' is called Steve. They just do whatever he says. And he really doesn't care about HI guidelines. Sad, but true.

You couldn't be any more wrong.

[Geobunny]

Originally posted by Ken Masters:
The truth of the matter is.....

People who like the screen found that the screen residue had small traces of radiation surrounding it therefore giving people tongue cancer.

Cancer that apple doesn't want their users to have, so the metal look will deter people from licking their computer screens.

Happy.

Do you honestly think that's funny? I don't know anybody who considers cancer a laughing matter. Near-as-damnit everyone I've spoken to recently either has cancer, has had it in the past or is related to someone who has had it or has died from it. Please don't joke about it.

[offbalance]

yeah i agree brushed metal does look kinda late eighties early nineties. and the fact that it doesn't differentiate itself between the current window or the background one by dimming like aqua ain't that great either. that solid grey looked nice and clean though.

[:XI:]

Originally posted by Geobunny:
Do you honestly think that's funny? I don't know anybody who considers cancer a laughing matter. Near-as-damnit everyone I've spoken to recently either has cancer, has had it in the past or is related to someone who has had it or has died from it. Please don't joke about it.

Oh, jesus christ!

[moki]

Originally posted by orry_main:
Now the Finder is brushed metal. Okaaaay. Consistency seems to be again going out the window. Has anyone ever figured out Apple's system for deciding what's metal and what's aqua? Is there some obscure HI guideline somewhere that explains it? Or is someone in Cupertino just flipping a coin? I honestly don't care too much one way or the other, but I was promised a lick-able interface and, well, I don't want to lick metal.

It used to be that metal was reserved for "real world analogs" -- in other words, things that were emulating devices on your computer were metal, such as the Calculator, iTunes, AddressBook, and so forth.

Now, it really has morphed into a crap-shoot. Why is Mail done in Aqua while the Finder isn't? Who knows. Someone just decided it looked better that way, and left it.

Metal interfaces were useful when they meant something -- when they distinguished certain applications from others. Now that meaning is essentially gone.

I don't mind the look/feel of the metal interface, but its arbitrary use certainly isn't adding anything.

[Developer]

Originally posted by moki:
Now, it really has morphed into a crap-shoot. Why is Mail done in Aqua while the Finder isn't? Who knows. Someone just decided it looked better that way, and left it.

Mail is no longer metal in Panther for a reason. John Galensey talked about that reason at the WWDC OS X user experience session. Neither I nor him understood what that reason is supposed to be, yet Apple still insists it exists.

[Geobunny]

Originally posted by :XI::
Oh, jesus christ!

I've never said this before in my life, but if that's how you feel, then I hope it happens to you. Maybe then you'll see how f***ing funny it is. ...and while I'm having a wee rant, I think you'll find that Jesus Christ has a capital J and C in His name.

[Grey Cell]

As a graphic designer I want a GUI that's as unobtrusive as possible in every way.

I've always hated Aqua's pinstripes, and I'm glad to see they're far less prominent in Panther.

Brushed metal I can live with.

[kupan787]

The thing I hate is the damn side bar. If it was optional, that would be great. But I have this feeling that on my 12" pbook, when I open a finder window the whole screen will be filled up. If I ditrch the side bar not only does the window revert to Aqua, but I loose all the toolbars. Its like you have to choose between bloat and functionality or minimilst. There needs to be an inbetween. Let us hide the side bar, but keep the top toolbar (like the old finder)

[mattyd]

Originally posted by kupan787:
The thing I hate is the damn side bar. If it was optional, that would be great. But I have this feeling that on my 12" pbook, when I open a finder window the whole screen will be filled up. If I ditrch the side bar not only does the window revert to Aqua, but I loose all the toolbars. Its like you have to choose between bloat and functionality or minimilst. There needs to be an inbetween. Let us hide the side bar, but keep the top toolbar (like the old finder)

i haven't used panther yet, but i think you can just drag the sidebar separator all the way to the left and it will hide it.

[z10n]

The biggest problem with apple is their inablity and/or unwillingness to provide a standardized OS X UI theme implimentation. Brush Metal vs Aqua comments would go away if they would simply allow users to CHOOSE which UI they want to use, just you can do in EVERY OTHER mainstream OS.

Instead, apple is on this "THOU SHALT USE BRUSHED METAL" kick. I really get tired of apple's attitude that it can just simply impose whatever UI changes it likes and because I'm a good little mac user who loves steve, I should just accept it. Style is a two way street- some people will like the style, others won't. That's why you provide OPTIONS to let people choose what style suits them best. THAT'S what apple should be about.

All I got to say is, thank god for Duality and Candybar. It's just a shame that apple doesn't have an official implimentation.

[eevyl]

Originally posted by kupan787:
The thing I hate is the damn side bar. If it was optional, that would be great. But I have this feeling that on my 12" pbook, when I open a finder window the whole screen will be filled up. If I ditrch the side bar not only does the window revert to Aqua, but I loose all the toolbars. Its like you have to choose between bloat and functionality or minimilst. There needs to be an inbetween. Let us hide the side bar, but keep the top toolbar (like the old finder)

I also have a 12" pb, and thought the same. But after using 10.3 for some days, I can say that the sidebar implementation is pretty intelligent and, surprisingly for me, very usefull.

In fact it saves a lot of window space in my case. I use column view all the time, and in previous OS X you always end with a pretty long chain of columns ending in your desired one. Almost 80% of the time you don't need the first five or six columns. In Panther, just put your home folder or whatever in the sidebar and you get instant access in the first column, saving space. It really does.

I didn't like the brushed metal Finder... until I began using it

[keston]

I don't think you're differentiating between the finder's functions, and people's dislike of brushed metal. I don't think many argue the functionality.. its the damn brushed-a-bit-too-thick-and-slower bloat. The previous arguments for "Panther's finder functions", and "Brushed Metal Finder" are not the same thing.

Originally posted by eevyl:
I also have a 12" pb, and thought the same. But after using 10.3 for some days, I can say that the sidebar implementation is pretty intelligent and, surprisingly for me, very usefull.

In fact it saves a lot of window space in my case. I use column view all the time, and in previous OS X you always end with a pretty long chain of columns ending in your desired one. Almost 80% of the time you don't need the first five or six columns. In Panther, just put your home folder or whatever in the sidebar and you get instant access in the first column, saving space. It really does.

I didn't like the brushed metal Finder... until I began using it

[bcaslis]

Actually, the sidebar is optional. Just drag it closed or drag it wider. Couldn't be simpler.

Originally posted by kupan787:
The thing I hate is the damn side bar. If it was optional, that would be great. But I have this feeling that on my 12" pbook, when I open a finder window the whole screen will be filled up. If I ditrch the side bar not only does the window revert to Aqua, but I loose all the toolbars. Its like you have to choose between bloat and functionality or minimilst. There needs to be an inbetween. Let us hide the side bar, but keep the top toolbar (like the old finder)

[Ken Masters]

Originally posted by Geobunny:
I've never said this before in my life, but if that's how you feel, then I hope it happens to you. Maybe then you'll see how f***ing funny it is. ...and while I'm having a wee rant, I think you'll find that Jesus Christ has a capital J and C in His name.

OMFG....U R an idiot!!! I hope you get cancer in the EYE!

so preventing you from reading this!

[LaGow]

Originally posted by Geobunny:
I've never said this before in my life, but if that's how you feel, then I hope it happens to you. Maybe then you'll see how f***ing funny it is. ...and while I'm having a wee rant, I think you'll find that Jesus Christ has a capital J and C in His name.

How marvelously Christian of you.

[brachiator]

Why don't you all just lay off GeoBunny, eh? It's obviously a sore point, as it is for many who've had or lost people to cancer.

My condolences GB. Been there. I don't think the original poster meant any offense, though, at least in his or her first post.

[eevyl]

Originally posted by keston:
I don't think you're differentiating between the finder's functions, and people's dislike of brushed metal. I don't think many argue the functionality.. its the damn brushed-a-bit-too-thick-and-slower bloat. The previous arguments for "Panther's finder functions", and "Brushed Metal Finder" are not the same thing.

Well, not really. The original post that I answered talked about his/her screen filled with a bloated Finder window. I just say that I find the new brushed metal Finder in fact less obstrusive and using less screen space.

But, I am also beggining to learn to live with a brushed metal Finder, as much as I hate it regarding some major UI flaws (in brushed metal, not the Finder itself).

[LaGow]

Originally posted by brachiator:
Why don't you all just lay off GeoBunny, eh? It's obviously a sore point, as it is for many who've had or lost people to cancer.

My condolences GB. Been there. I don't think the original poster meant any offense, though, at least in his or her first post.

I also know people who have had cancer; however, geobunny's own hypocrisy speaks volumes about his/her character as well. Ken Masters' response was frankly childish.

But consider this: laughter in the face of death is a) as old as the human race; and b) life affirming. Lighten up. Nobody here is trying to turn the average cancer patient into a laughing stock.

edit: and while I'm here let me add to the topic. A couple of years ago I read that the original OS X look was entirely brushed metal but was switched to stripes once Apple saw Microsoft's IE 5. Now this is likely Microsoft spin for you but two things are true: 1) IE 5 had stripes; and 2) OS X debuted with stripes sometime later.

[the_sisko]

Here is from Apple's official Human Interface (HI) guidelines:

<blockquote>Mac OS X version 10.2 provides developers with a new �textured� window appearance (see Figure 5-4). This window style has been designed specifically for use by�and is therefore best suited to�applications that provide an interface for a digital peripheral, such as a camera, or an interface for managing data shared with digital peripherals, such as the Address Book application.

This appearance may also be appropriate for applications that strive to re-create a familiar physical device�the Calculator application, for example. Avoid using the textured window appearance in applications or utilities that are unrelated to digital peripherals or to the data associated with these devices.</blockquote>

[moki]

Originally posted by z10n:
Instead, apple is on this "THOU SHALT USE BRUSHED METAL" kick. I really get tired of apple's attitude that it can just simply impose whatever UI changes it likes and because I'm a good little mac user who loves steve, I should just accept it. Style is a two way street- some people will like the style, others won't. That's why you provide OPTIONS to let people choose what style suits them best. THAT'S what apple should be about.

I disagree. For Apple, it is all about branding. They clearly want a particular look and feel for their OS, so that it is instantly recognizable as a Mac, and instantly usable by anyone familiar with Macs.

[moki]

Originally posted by the_sisko:
Here is from Apple's official Human Interface (HI) guidelines:

<blockquote>Mac OS X version 10.2 provides developers with a new �textured� window appearance (see Figure 5-4). This window style has been designed specifically for use by�and is therefore best suited to�applications that provide an interface for a digital peripheral, such as a camera, or an interface for managing data shared with digital peripherals, such as the Address Book application.

This appearance may also be appropriate for applications that strive to re-create a familiar physical device�the Calculator application, for example. Avoid using the textured window appearance in applications or utilities that are unrelated to digital peripherals or to the data associated with these devices.</blockquote>

Sadly, I don't really see the Finder, or Safari fitting into Apple's own guidelines, this being the case.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by moki:
Sadly, I don't really see the Finder, or Safari fitting into Apple's own guidelines, this being the case.

Being pedantic here one could argue that Finder actually interfaces with a number of digital devices. Safari, well it interfaces the internet, which, uhm. Oh, who am I kidding...

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by moki:
They clearly want a particular look and feel for their OS, so that it is instantly recognizable as a Mac, and instantly usable by anyone familiar with Macs.

The default theme is prominent in Apple Stores, in Apple's ads and in a new user's first view of the OS. For branding, that should be enough.

When people peek over my shoulder, seeing me use my Mac OS is akin to people seeing how I live.

The user domain should be just that. Living in OS X today is like living in a pre-furnished home, with unconfortable furniture of adoslescent tastes. I would like to feel more at home - since it's just my space, I don't even have to worry about someone else getting lost in it.

From the Kaleidoscope days already, I have great faith in the quality of work of independent theme artists. This work doesn't undermine the quality or the message of Mac OS X, rather just amplifies its individualisticity.

J