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Stacks usability
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Dedicated MacNNer
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Stacks seems like a step back in usability (my opinion). I make extensive use of the navigable folders in the dock in Tiger. I can’t, for instance, navigate into subfolders in stacks (see apple leopard features video at Apple.com); you can only select the top level folder to open it in the Finder.
Will I need an application to replace this funcionality? Butler is Leopard compatible?
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Mac Elite
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You can always just turn stacks off
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Linkinus is king.
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I will use Stacks and be incredibly happy it's included in the OS instead of having to use OverFlow
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I was hopeful that the old functionality would still exist somehow. I think this is the worst change in a long time. Being able to browse folder trees made the dock truly useful. Being able to browse one level makes it pretty poor.
I'm all for them giving us the option to modify our behaviour, e.g. Spaces, but them forcing it like this is unsettling, and upsetting. I'm going to go hit up feedback, assuming a Leopard category is up already.
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Originally Posted by brokenjago
You can always just turn stacks off
How?
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I never really saw how browsing a big long list of things (either from a dock menu, from Classic's Apple menu, or from Windows Start button for that matter) was really very useful. But, each to his own.
I suspect it will take about a day before some enterprising shareware developer creates a utility to restore this feature, so fear not.
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Mac Elite
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Originally Posted by brokenjago
You can always just turn stacks off
Yes, please tell me how. I'm holding off installing Leopard until there is a way to disable stacks.
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I'm hoping that FinderPop and/or Folderglance will continue to work with Leopard. Either of these (see versiontracker) is better than folders in the dock.
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You could simply remove the icons from your dock and use the finder icon all the way to the left to browse your documents folders. I fail to see the problem.
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I still can't believe they took this:
And replaced it with this:
And this:
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I really, really, REALLY hate to say it, but it feels like somehow .... MS snuck a mole into apple and got them to pull the okey-doke on Steve & co... "see? It'll spring off the dock like this!!!"
Ughhhh.... I mean... I like the dock, I like coverflow in the finder, but it makes me feel kinda dirty, and in all honesty, makes me feel like I should go back to 10.4.
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Please someone confirm it can be turned off.
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"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
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Stacks also got some bad comments from MacWorld's Leopard review. I currently have my Applications folder in the Dock, and right-click it for a simple, straight, and clean pop-up listing. Stacks will make it unwieldy. I'll probably work around this by using Spotlight as an app launcher.
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They should add more right click functions to the Finder icon. A right click on that smiley face could at least bring up an application list.
This move with stacks seems to be Apple's solution to an old problem on OS X: how to launch apps not already in your Dock. I hate to say it, but an Apple menu/Start menu is good for those few times you need to do that. By putting the Applications stack as a default Apple is hoping to stop this problem (well really just a problem for switchers). But looking at it, it's not so elegant - no way to drill down with folders, and all the application names are truncated just like in the Finder (I hate that, it's so ugly, I wish they would put the ellipsis at the end of the word, not the middle, or just leave the name off, a la Overflow).
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I agree - this is one of those eye-candy things that they use in the stores to say "Look - it has a start menu - and a really cool one too!" Most of us will turn this off, just like dock zooming.
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Originally Posted by jasonsRX7
Show...inder? WTF? You'd think a button that has a specific functionality would have a readable label.
And I still think the you should be able to enable the old list functionality in the Dock on a stack-by-stack basis.
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Originally Posted by peeb
I agree - this is one of those eye-candy things that they use in the stores to say "Look - it has a start menu - and a really cool one too!" Most of us will turn this off, just like dock zooming.
Ahh, but can it be turned off?
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I've thought for ages that if you want a stack of documents in the Dock, then that's what you grab and put into the dock; whatever your Finder selection is at the time, that becomes the stack. If you want a navigable folder like the functional Dock in OS X pre-Leopard, then drag the folder.
Actually, that makes me wonder if you can replace the /System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app with the one from 10.4 and get a useful Dock back again.
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Clinically Insane
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Nope, folders become stacks. That's the problem, unless someone knows of a way to turn it off.
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"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
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Mac Elite
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In its current state, Stacks sucks. You're left with what the computer wants to show. I want to be able to drag and drop into it. I guess I can make another enclosing folder but it just seems so unintuitive that way.
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iamwhor3hay
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Originally Posted by MrForgetable
In its current state, Stacks sucks. You're left with what the computer wants to show. I want to be able to drag and drop into it. I guess I can make another enclosing folder but it just seems so unintuitive that way.
Not to mention the fact that it shows the wrong icon! If my Applications folder is in the Dock, I want to see the icon for the Applications folder sitting there, not the icon for whatever happens to appear first in the stack.
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Originally Posted by brokenjago
You can always just turn stacks off
Thanks for that tidbit of info. Glad to hear stacks can be turned off... They can be turned off, right?
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Originally Posted by SteveTech
They can be turned off, right?
No thru any kind of visible option or setting.
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Then why the heck did that guy above, at the beginning of the thread, say you could turn them off. That's why I asked.
I'm not all that excited about stacks and was hoping there was a way to turn them off. Maybe a terminal command will pop up sometime soon to disable them.
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That's what I'm hoping too.
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"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
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Senior User
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I'm awake again, and on my mini running Tiger still. It's a bit of a relief seeing all those navigable folders again .
I'll check out those products mentioned above, but really wish Apple had just left it with a simple "OFF" option, just like Spaces - even in the same system pref pane would have been sensible - Spaces & Stacks eh!? Big departures from 6-year embedded behaviour really should be optional. Meantime, I guess I will get into making folders with bunches of links that I might want together; but I really do mourn the dock's best feature.
Cheers.
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It's ugly. It's the one bad feature of Leopard. Sorry, not bad feature just badly done.
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I can't believe what I'm seeing (reading).
Anyone remember Now Software? (NowMenus, etc.)
And then PowerOn had ActionMenus, ActionDialog?
idunno. Where did folks like that go?
(I guess Apple didn't hire 'em. )
Getting Leopard in one hour ("6PM").
How long before a Stacks hack comes out?
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-HI-
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If you don't want to use Stacks then don't put folders on the dock and remove the 2 default stack folders that are put there by the OS Leopard install (documents and downloads).
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Originally Posted by dmcnickle
If you don't want to use Stacks then don't put folders on the dock and remove the 2 default stack folders that are put there by the OS Leopard install (documents and downloads).
What we're lamenting is not just Stacks, but that Apple removed the previous functionality -- right-clicking a folder and having an order list pop up that we could navigate sub-folders in.
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Originally Posted by dmcnickle
If you don't want to use Stacks then don't put folders on the dock and remove the 2 default stack folders that are put there by the OS Leopard install (documents and downloads).
How on earth could you completely misunderstand the entire point of the thread?
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I never ever used that contextual menu feature to browse through my stuff, got Spotlight and the Finder for that. Personally I'm liking stacks, especially for my Downloads folder. All stacks are spring loaded now like folders in the Finder.
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Originally Posted by .Neo
I never ever used that feature, got Spotlight and the Finder for that. Personally I'm liking stacks, especially for my Downloads folder. All stacks are spring loaded now like folders in the Finder.
I don't get why people are acting like Stacks is a new feature, and you haven't always been able to do this. How can you say "I never ever had a use for that feature" but in the same sentence say that you like using Stacks? They do the exact same thing except the new Stacks don't let you see inside a folder without opening a new Finder window, whereas the old stacks did.
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Originally Posted by jasonsRX7
I don't get why people are acting like Stacks is a new feature, and you haven't always been able to do this. How can you say "I never ever had a use for that feature" but in the same sentence say that you like using Stacks? They do the exact same thing except Stacks doesn't let you see inside a folder without opening a new Finder window, whereas the old stacks did.
The Stacks actually notifiy me when a new file drops in by bouncing once and moving the newest file to the front most position. That's new and extremely convient in my opinion when it comes to my Downloads folder.
Next to that all the Stacks are spring-loaded like folders in the Finder when dragging something onto it. Also new.
Last but not least they create a clear overview of the folder in question, with big icons and the ability to change view and arrange options. This is also where the Document icon previews come in handy, not much use for those @ 16x16 pixels.
I have no use for being able to browse my entire Macintosh HD from inside the Dock. So Stacks suit me just fine.
(
Last edited by .Neo; Oct 26, 2007 at 06:25 PM.
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my documents stack icon is showing a blur of the folders in the docs folder...anyone else? ugly...
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"At first, there was Nothing. Then Nothing inverted itself and became Something.
And that is what you all are: inverted Nothings...with potential" (Sun Ra)
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Originally Posted by .Neo
The Stacks actually notifies me when a new file drops in by bouncing once and moving the newest file to the front most position. That's new and extremely convient in my opinion when it comes to my Downloads folder.
Next to that all the Stacks are spring-loaded like folders in the Finder when dragging something onto it. Also new.
Last but not least they create a very convient overview of the folder in question, with big icons and the ability to change view and arrange options.
I have no use for being able to browse my entire Macintosh HD from inside the Dock. So Stacks suits me just fine.
Spring loading is nice, and they could have added that to the old stacks without removing the subfolder functionality. No one is making you browse subfolders, but now you can't, even if you wanted to. I didn't use it for browsing my entire HD, I only used it for browsing Applications and my home folder.
It seems like Apple is designing these features for people who just throw all their crap in one directory and can't find anything without searching for it. I organize all my files and documents logically in descriptive folders, which means I have lots of folders within folders, and which means I don't need Spotlight to tell me where my files are.
At any point in the last several years, you could have created a Downloads folder, put it in your Dock, and had Safari default to save your files there.
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Originally Posted by .Neo
Last but not least they create a clear overview of the folder in question, with big icons....
One has to assume you've not seen this pic from the Macworld Review then?
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I think Apple is very much trying to move away from the idea of hierarchical folders. They are very problematic for some people.
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Originally Posted by peeb
I think Apple is very much trying to move away from the idea of hierarchical folders. They are very problematic for some people.
...and immensely useful for others (nae, most?). In fact, I couldn't operate nearly as efficiently without a hierarchical filing system.
Fair enough if they want to add new features to help those people for whom a hierarchy is problematic, but our beef is with them actively removing tried, tested and useful features.
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Originally Posted by xmacintosh
Stacks seems like a step back in usability (my opinion). I make extensive use of the navigable folders in the dock in Tiger. I can’t, for instance, navigate into subfolders in stacks (see apple leopard features video at Apple.com); you can only select the top level folder to open it in the Finder.
Will I need an application to replace this funcionality? Butler is Leopard compatible?
I haven't tried stacks yet but the one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb to me is the way the stack curves. What was the reasoning for not put it straight up? It looks broken when it's crooked.
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SJ thinks it's cooler that way.
The funny thing about Stacks is that if you assume one of their major functions is to serve as an application menu, they're very poor at it. Most people's applications folders are cluttered with all kinds of apps, thus yielding that stupid grid display stack list. I just hope that everyone angry about the demise of traditional Dock folders puts a couple emails into Apple each. Jobs has yielded to popular opinion in the past.
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"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
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The "fan" layout is completely useless on a busy window (e.g. Finder windows open, Safari browser, etc) -- making the text of each item hard to read. The transparency also gets in the way. It's "cool" in concept but really bad in execution.
However, I think if they did add QuickLook it might prove handy. Or better yet, maybe if they enabled the "skim" feature found in iPhoto and iMovie.
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Originally Posted by jasonsRX7
Spring loading is nice, and they could have added that to the old stacks without removing the subfolder functionality.
I'm not claiming otherwise. You on the other hand were claiming Stacks didn't feature anything new.
Originally Posted by jasonsRX7
No one is making you browse subfolders, but now you can't, even if you wanted to. I didn't use it for browsing my entire HD, I only used it for browsing Applications and my home folder.
I don't care, because I never used it in all those years. I won't suddenly start missing it in October 2007.
Originally Posted by jasonsRX7
It seems like Apple is designing these features for people who just throw all their crap in one directory and can't find anything without searching for it. I organize all my files and documents logically in descriptive folders, which means I have lots of folders within folders, and which means I don't need Spotlight to tell me where my files are.
For me Spotlight isn't about finding stuff, it's about quickly obtaining access. If you truly are that organized you shouldn't run into any problems typing in the file/folder name you need in Spotlight and open it. Much faster. For real browsing there's the Finder and it's improved Sidebar.
Originally Posted by jasonsRX7
At any point in the last several years, you could have created a Downloads folder, put it in your Dock, and had Safari default to save your files there.
Again, I'm not claiming otherwise. But it wouldn't have given me the same level of clear overview nor would I've been able to mange the folder from inside the Dock.
Like I told you before the Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger Dock contextual menu does not allow you to modify the folder content in any way. Stacks do without having to open the Finder. Again, convient. Especially when it comes to the Downloads folder: I can quickly Trash downloads without opening any new windows.
Originally Posted by Geobunny
That's entirely up to the user. I won't allow my Downloads folder, for example, to become that messy. Nor any other folder for that matter.
A folder like that won't be much clearer in the old situation or within the Finder. He also neglected to sort the files and folders by Kind, which also helps a great deal...
------------------------------------
I can definitely see how some might miss the old way of handling folders, but for one I'm not.
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Originally Posted by .Neo
A folder like that won't be much clearer in the old situation
By your own admission, you've never used it so I'll forgive you for not knowing, however, it is far far clearer the old way. The hierarchical menu was exactly that - a menu. An alphabetically ordered menu at that, and crucially your eye only had to scan in one direction to determine the contents.
With stacks, your eye has to look both horizontally and vertically until you find the item you're after. Once you do find it, if it's a folder, you can't then drill into that folder without ending up in a different view (Finder window), which disrupts your eye movement even further and is visually jarring.
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my stacks folders are showing a blur of the icons within (ie custom folder icons, downloaded package icons);
anyone else seeing this? 1.5g powerbook..
also...any way to move more than one item from a stack folder at a time??
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"At first, there was Nothing. Then Nothing inverted itself and became Something.
And that is what you all are: inverted Nothings...with potential" (Sun Ra)
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Originally Posted by Geobunny
By your own admission, you've never used it so I'll forgive you for not knowing, however, it is far far clearer the old way. The hierarchical menu was exactly that - a menu. An alphabetically ordered menu at that, and crucially your eye only had to scan in one direction to determine the contents.
With stacks, your eye has to look both horizontally and vertically until you find the item you're after. Once you do find it, if it's a folder, you can't then drill into that folder without ending up in a different view (Finder window), which disrupts your eye movement even further and is visually jarring.
You could ask yourself if that's really they way you would want to order things on your Mac. Especially if you're that demanding.
Like I said, I definitely see how some miss this feature. I'm just not one of them.
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Originally Posted by .Neo
For me Spotlight isn't about finding stuff, it's about quickly obtaining access. If you truly are that organized you shouldn't run into any problems typing in the file/folder name you need in Spotlight and open it. Much faster. For real browsing there's the Finder and it's improved Sidebar.
I organize everything inside a Projects folder, then by name of the project, and then an assets, files, quotes, and invoices folder.... So if there are 30 projects, I'll have 30 folders named assets, and many of the files in the subfolder have the same name. Spotlight sucks for that, but quickly navigating via dock folders didn't.
Stacks definitely work well for Application folders with lots of apps. Now, you can't even sort them into folders, or you won't be able to get to them with the Applications stack.
Edit: I don't find Spotlight particularly fast, either.
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Originally Posted by fisherKing
my stacks folders are showing a blur of the icons within (ie custom folder icons, downloaded package icons);
anyone else seeing this? 1.5g powerbook..
Nope the icons are crystal clear here. 2.8 GHz iMac.
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Originally Posted by .Neo
You could ask yourself if that's really they way you would want to order things on your Mac. Especially if you're that demanding.
Yes thank you. It's worked for me for the last 15-or-so years (using the Apple menu since system 7.5). Besides, that's not the point; Apple shouldn't be telling me how to use my computer. The tail has started wagging the dog recently.
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Originally Posted by jasonsRX7
I organize everything inside a Projects folder, then by name of the project, and then an assets, files, quotes, and invoices folder.... So if there are 30 projects, I'll have 30 folders named assets, and many of the files in the subfolder have the same name. Spotlight sucks for that, but quickly navigating via dock folders didn't.
Maybe it's time you started working with tags? Just a suggestion.
Originally Posted by Geobunny
Yes thank you. It's worked for me for the last 15-or-so years (using the Apple menu since system 7.5). Besides, that's not the point; Apple shouldn't be telling me how to use my computer. The tail has started wagging the dog recently.
Apple don't. You are however bound by the features they provide, but that has always been the case. If you want full freedom in that aspect there's Linux.
--------------------------
There's an application called Butler that gives you the old functionality through the Menu Bar instead of the Dock. Not entirely sure if it still works with Leopard, but it should.
Many Tricks � Butler
(
Last edited by .Neo; Oct 26, 2007 at 07:06 PM.
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