[nonhuman]

Why do we insist on classifying people based on where they live? How many people live where they do because they want to instead of because that's where they were born and it's easier to not emigrate? And why is it that just because you were born within arbitrarily defined artifical borders you are expected to have some loyalty to the area within those borders and the people who live there?

[Axo1ot1]

I read a book set in the future where the world was divided into tribes rather than nations and tribes had territory all over the place. People had loyalty to their tribes because they chose their tribes. It was a cool book. If I remember my history the concept of nationalism is reasonably new. It only really happened to come about around the time that the major western european nations were solidifying into basically what they are today, then they got in boats and went out to colinize the rest of the world to display their nationalism and thrust the concept upon the rest of the world as they did it. Then the rest of the world displayed their nationalism by making the colonialists beat it. Some nations were more successful than others...

[Sven G]

A worldwide regional federalism will eventually replace nationalism: the nation-state is indeed an obsolete concept in today's more and more globalized world.

[Usama's Carcase]

'nationality' for everyone but Americans means 'ethnicity'. You can never be 'German' unless you're ethnically and historically German, despite holding German citizenship. One can be 'American' by virtue of holding American citizenship--that becomes one's 'nationality'. The ethnic distinction--Arab, Asian, African, etc.--is something separate for most Americans.

I have an Indian friend who wants to be American. He loves the USA and its people, and believes in the ideals embodied in the Constitution of the United States of America. When he acquires citizenship, his nationality will be 'American', but his ethnicity will remain Indian.

[Usama's Carcase]

Originally posted by Sven G:
A worldwide regional federalism will eventually replace nationalism: the nation-state is indeed an obsolete concept in today's more and more globalized world.

Never. The West is outnumbered by Third-world, West-hating countries. The world powers (and the world's only true superpower) would never allow them to set global policies or laws.

Imagine the UN General Assembly running the world. HAHAHAHAHAH! As much as I hate you western infidels, mired in your own blasphemy and sin, I would keel over and die (again) if the African, Eastern and Central European, and other crappy nations started making world policy.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by Usama's Carcase:
'nationality' for everyone but Americans means 'ethnicity'. You can never be 'German' unless you're ethnically and historically German, despite holding German citizenship.

Nonsense. And dangerous nonsense to boot becasue it assumes that nationality is something that doesn't take into account where you were born.

I am expecting this sort of statement from the far right, not from you Usama.

Of course you can be German, British, French without being white. I've got several Asian and black friends in London who see themselves as being very much British. In Germany I've got Turkish born neighbours across the road - who see themselves and their children as German. And rightly so.

[Sven G]

Originally posted by Usama's Carcase:
Never. The West is outnumbered by Third-world, West-hating countries. The world powers (and the world's only true superpower) would never allow them to set global policies or laws.

... And that's also why I talked about regional federalism! And maybe they hate the West also because of the western nation-states' imperialistic policies...?

Of course, the global and local contexts must substancially change to allow for a transition from nations to free regions - but there's certainly a tendency towards federalism also in "traditional" politics...

[libraryguy]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
Why do we insist on classifying people based on where they live? How many people live where they do because they want to instead of because that's where they were born and it's easier to not emigrate? And why is it that just because you were born within arbitrarily defined artifical borders you are expected to have some loyalty to the area within those borders and the people who live there?

Well, I agree that many people are born in places that are less than optimal conditons. I also agree that it is strange that that is how we classifly people. However, I think that a certain allegance is due for certain countries. In the US and in may other countires you DON't have to show any loyalty to your country in a certain sense. I can, for example, say that I hate the US and that is totally sucks. However, I can continue to live here. It is a little strange that in a true free county you can condemn the very government that gives you the freedom to condemn it! In many places, you can not do that, or face serious consequences. Allegance should not be blind! I love the US. I was born here and was raised here...I've had a good life so far and I believe that I should be grateful that I've been so lucky. I also believe that there are major flaws in our government. However, I also believe that that is one of the great things about living in a governmet such as ours. It CAN be changed. Maybe it will take years...or a life time. But, there is no one saying that it is illegal to speak out against the government. The United States is a prime (and maybe th only) example of people holding such strong allegances to a county they were not born in. This country is made up of a such a diverse population from all corners of the Earth. Many not even born here. Yet, they have allegance! Why? Because the US stands for something that isn't found else where in the world: true diversity and equal opportunity. Not true in the sense that it is an actual reality but true in the sense that that is the goal, the ultimate end, a vision. It is something to be worked for and eventually attained! It's a beautiful thing.

Did anyone know, that in Germany, it is against the law the state that the Holocust never happened? Now, I truely believe that it did but it is NOT the govenment's place to tell me that i can't hold a different opinion! Also, in France...at public Universities...Muslim women are not allowed to wear they're head dress 'cause it violates the seperation of church and state. However, catholics are allowed to wear the cross! That does not happen here! I agree that the US has some serious flaws but they are not in relm of the ability to freely express ones self. If we are free to say what we will, what else could we ask for? With that power alone we hold the power to change the world. No one can shut us up or stifle our ideas. For that reason I have allegance to the US. Sure, other countires offer the same rights and if I was born there my allegance would be to that country. But, I wasn't and I have this life under this government that does not oppress my freedom of voice.

[Usama's Carcase]

Originally posted by Mastrap:


Nonsense. [...] Of course you can be German, British, French without being white. I've got several Asian and black friends in London who see themselves as being very much British. In Germany I've got Turkish born neighbours across the road - who see themselves and their children as German. And rightly so.

That is all very nice, but those aren't the sentiments of many (most, I'd say) of your European countrymen. Being German or French, for most, goes beyond citizenship (which is hard enough to get in Germany, anyway) and is tied to historical and ethnic (white European) roots in that country.

I'm glad you see it differently, and so do I, but I deal in reality, and the reality is that many Europeans are so bigoted that they do not include Turks or non-European whites holding French/German/etc. citizenship as having that nationality. Their nationality will always be Turkish or Roma or Asian. That isn't the way you or I think, but that is the way it is in Europe among left, centre, and right alike.

[gadster]

Originally posted by Mastrap:


I am expecting this sort of statement from the far right, not from you Usama.

Umm. Mastrap, Usama IS the far right. ie: "You should live as I say you should". Control freaks = far right. Over here on the left, we are more tolerant (christian).

[deekay1]

Originally posted by Usama's Carcase:
That is all very nice, but those aren't the sentiments of many (most, I'd say) of your European countrymen. Being German or French, for most, goes beyond citizenship (which is hard enough to get in Germany, anyway) and is tied to historical and ethnic (white European) roots in that country.

I'm glad you see it differently, and so do I, but I deal in reality, and the reality is that many Europeans are so bigoted that they do not include Turks or non-European whites holding French/German/etc. citizenship as having that nationality. Their nationality will always be Turkish or Roma or Asian. That isn't the way you or I think, but that is the way it is in Europe among left, centre, and right alike.

where in the hell do you get this kind of crap?? do you even live in europe???

most of the people i know under the age of say, 60 , see people who were born in a certain place as citizens and people of that country (unless they are bigoted right wing racists).

hell, i know kids of turkish immigrants who speak german better than a lot a "native" germans. the same goes for italiens, spaniards, greek...

the whole idea of nationalism is a bunch of crap! whenver i meet somebody from the uk, or italy, or whatever i can totally relate to their experiences and points of view (language beeing the only impediment).

BUT if you were born in france, went to kindergarden and the schoolsystem

YOU ARE FRENCH!!!!!! PERIOD!

no matter wether your parents are from algeria, sudan, laos or paris!

the same goes for germany (though the legal aspect of becoming german has only changed recently), italy, the uk, spain....and, yes, the us of f�ckin' a!

[deekay1]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
Why do we insist on classifying people based on where they live? How many people live where they do because they want to instead of because that's where they were born and it's easier to not emigrate? And why is it that just because you were born within arbitrarily defined artifical borders you are expected to have some loyalty to the area within those borders and the people who live there?

these are all traditional, very quickly becoming out dated, cultural definitions.

for thousands of years people, unless they were rather wealthy, didn't travel that much. they only knew their own village and some other towns "beyond the hills".

that is all rapidly changing now. in a lot of instances the language barrier is the only wall left between people of different countries.

if i had my way i would learn several languages more (incl. spanish, italian, indian (hindi) and have a house in san fransisco, germany, cuba, milano, india, australia, and somewhere in the south sea...

unfortunately nationality (work permits), money and, to a lesser extent, language is still an issue in (my) life!

once these things are finally resolved, i wouldn't have any problems living in each of those places for a couple of months a year...

from my experience the divisional "lines" between people don't run along nationality, race or ethnicity, but along (social)class and income.

[gadster]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
Why do we insist on classifying people based on where they live? How many people live where they do because they want to instead of because that's where they were born and it's easier to not emigrate? And why is it that just because you were born within arbitrarily defined artifical borders you are expected to have some loyalty to the area within those borders and the people who live there?

\

Just another political tool to separate us.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by deekay1:


where in the hell do you get this kind of crap?? do you even live in europe???

most of the people i know under the age of say, 60 , see people who were born in a certain place as citizens and people of that country (unless they are bigoted right wing racists).

hell, i know kids of turkish immigrants who speak german better than a lot a "native" germans. the same goes for italiens, spaniards, greek...

the whole idea of nationalism is a bunch of crap! whenver i meet somebody from the uk, or italy, or whatever i can totally relate to their experiences and points of view (language beeing the only impediment).

BUT if you were born in france, went to kindergarden and the schoolsystem

YOU ARE FRENCH!!!!!! PERIOD!

no matter wether your parents are from algeria, sudan, laos or paris!

the same goes for germany (though the legal aspect of becoming german has only changed recently), italy, the uk, spain....and, yes, the us of f�ckin' a!

Well, I've lived in Europe (21 of my 35 years) and I have seen the attitude that Usama is talking about. I think perhaps you run around with like-minded people a little too much deekay. Perhaps you should get out of your bubble more often?

While it is true that younger Europeans are more likely to see immigrants as fellow citizens, that attitude is not universal. A much more common attitude that I encountered is that "they" aren't interested in assimilation. This attitude is certainly not only found on the far right. It's also very common in the left-voting working classes and permeates the middle classes.

What Usama is underestimating is the extent to which overt nationalism of the German v. French variety is dying out in Europe. There I think you are right. But if you think that Turks, Bosnians and North Africans are fully accepted on a cultural level you are deceiving yourself. To most people they remain more or less the "other."

In the last few months one thing about the European left in this board is obvious: I see post after post of criticism about all things American. But there is no interest among European leftists in discussing genuine cultural or economic problems within Europe itself. I don't know whether this is a product of denial, nationalism (can't let Americans criticise Europe, even if they are right), or increasing conservatism, but it is obvious. European problems are not a welcome topic of discussion. That's really sad because the left should be the most aware that you don't solve problems by burying them in denial.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
...That's really sad because the left should be the most aware that you don't solve problems by burying them in denial.

nobody is burying anything in an african river here , and to a certain extent you are right. when i say "europe", i most of the time mean western european cultures, like spain, france, italy, germany etc.

i do see racism, and or nationalism, as a growing problem among ALL ages groups in the former eastern block countries (but again, largely due to desolate socio economic circumstances).

but concerning western countries, people of african, southern or eastern european decent seem to be culturaly better integrated than in the us.

for most younger (0-45) western europeans a person growing up in their immediate surroundings, and who speaks the language is considered a "peer" (equal in terms of citizenship). this is true across the border (except again for the far right). regardless wether working, lower middle-, middle class or upper class.

people over the age of 50 or so seem to have more peoblems with these kinds of concepts, largely due to the fact that they were raised in a completely different time period (pre 60s idealism).

but irregardless of what you might think (and i do get out of my "bubble" rather often ;-)) "nationalism" and racial stereotyping are only "problems" of the far right and the elderly in western european countries.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by deekay1:
"nationalism" and racial stereotyping are only "problems" of the far right and the elderly in western european countries.

I think you must define "far right" rather more broadly than I do because it is much more widespread than that both generationally and politically. But dismissing it as only a symptom of the far right is exactly the denial I am talking about. That's why you get blindsided when Le Pen comes in second and when List Pym Fortyn did so well in Rotterdam. There is a great deal of frustration with the denial of the left and unfortunately it is bubbling up in ugly ways.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I think you must define "far right" rather more broadly than I do because it is much more widespread than that both generationally and politically. But dismissing it as only a symptom of the far right is exactly the denial I am talking about. That's why you get blindsided when Le Pen comes in second and when List Pym Fortyn did so well in Rotterdam. There is a great deal of frustration with the denial of the left and unfortunately it is bubbling up in ugly ways.

i would define it as "very conservative"(to a lesser degree the neo-liberal right) and fascist...

personally i would attribute the successes of "Le Pen" and "Fortyn" to the same factors i would attribute the recent success of the republicans in the us: low voter turnout! and a strong voter base that showed up at the polls for the "right" (check the numbers).

but as in the case with the us, these "results" do NOT reflect the genuine cultural attitudes across the board in either continents.

many people dispair at the inability of politics to solve socioeconomic problems, resulting in low voter turnouts and a strengthening of the right.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by deekay1:


i would define it as "very conservative"(to a lesser degree the neo-liberal right) and fascist...

personally i would attribute the successes of "Le Pen" and "Fortyn" to the same factors i would attribute the recent success of the republicans in the us: low voter turnout! and a strong voter base that showed up at the polls for the "right" (check the numbers).

but as in the case with the us, these "results" do NOT reflect the genuine cultural attitudes across the board in either continents.

many people dispair at the inability of politics to solve socioeconomic problems, resulting in low voter turnouts and a strengthening of the right.

Nice excuses. So if you lose elections you can just dismiss the results as a product of "dispair?" Again, this sounds a lot like denial.

Just curious. How many of your friends vote for parties other than the one you vote for? For example, do you have any friends who vote CDU? Or I suppose since you are in Bavaria that could be CSU? I ask because you seem to have a rather sweeping attitude toward anyone to the right of yourself - very willing to lump them all together and declare what they stand for. It makes me suspicious that you haven't really talked to them. The right in Europe represent a very large section of Euopean political thought and in some cases (e.g. Denmark, Spain, France, Italy) are in government. You really shouldn't lump them all together and dismiss them the way you do.

As for the Republicans not representing cultural attitudes in the US that's both true and false. Republicans don't represent all Americans but they are something over 50% at present. Given that many Democrats are also quite conservative, I think it is fair to say that broadly conservative views are dominant over left-wing ones in this country regardless of voter turnout.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Nice excuses. So if you lose elections you can just dismiss the results as a product of "dispair?"

well,it's just a theory. if the voter turnout would be 90% or so, and "people" like "le Pen" would still get 30% (of those 90) you might have a point.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

Just curious. How many of your friends vote for parties other than the one you vote for?

i'd say about 50%. some vote fdp and others cdu or even csu (the bastard). BUT, though some might be more conservative than others, none of them are really nationalistic or racist. if they vote conservative, it's almost always "fiscaly" driven.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

For example, do you have any friends who vote CDU?

yes.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Or I suppose since you are in Bavaria that could be CSU?

how do you figure? i'm not in bavaria...

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

I ask because you seem to have a rather sweeping attitude toward anyone to the right of yourself - very willing to lump them all together and declare what they stand for.

no i don't. i make clear distinctions. i know both conservatives and fascists. there is a grey area there, but in large they are really different from each other.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

It makes me suspicious that you haven't really talked to them. The right in Europe represent a very large section of Euopean political thought and in some cases (e.g. Denmark, Spain) are in government.

maybe if you include the "center right", but they usually hold more "fiscal" conservative attitudes and not "nationalistic"ones. we are not talking "le pen" or even "fortyn" here.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

As for the Republicans not representing cultural attitudes in the US that's both true and false. Republicans don't represent all Americans but they are something over 50% at present.

i don't believe you. no way.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by deekay1:
how do you figure? i'm not in bavaria...

no i don't. i make clear distinctions. i know both conservatives and fascists. there is a grey area there, but in large they are really different from each other. . .

maybe if you include the "center right", but they usually hold more "fiscal" conservative attitudes and not "nationalistic"ones. we are not talking "le pen" or even "fortyn" here.

My mistake. I thought you had said you were in Bavaria. Whereabouts are you?

Center mass of the US political landscape is conservative Democrat to moderate Republican. That's somewhat to the right of mainstream European politics. Now, you seem (implicitly) to be associating Republican politics with anti-immigrant or racist politics. Those views are well outside the mainstream. Of course, there are people of both parties that hold them, but I wouldn't say that they are dominant views.

Nevertheless, I go back to what I said initially. Anti-immigrant feeling is widespread in Europe. In fact, in my experience it is somewhat more widespread than in the US (though I don't want to get into a pissing contest on this because it's a very subjective evaluation). Whether or not I'm correct about that, I think you are wrong to assume it is something that is confined to the fringe right. They are just the ones most willing to say openly what a lot of people think privately.

Edit: I think part of the problem Europeans and Americans have when discussing nationalism is the different connotations that it has based on very different history and geography. When a European thinks of nationalism, they tend to think of France going to war with Germany and so forth. This is what the EU is designed to submerge in a larger whole. A European identity is therefore seen as post-nationalist even though it could be seen as just the creation of a new, larger national identity.

In a way, the US went through something similar with the Civil War. As a result of that, the US became much more of a single nation, and much less a collection of individual states. So when an American talks about his country, he is already talking about a much larger geographic whole, rather like a European might be talking about when discussing what it is to be a European.

Of course, the analogy isn't exact. The US civil war was almost 100 years before World War II. But I think this goes some way to explaining why Europeans (especially the most fervently pro-European integrationists) tend to declare that nation-states are a thing of the barbaric past whereas Americans tend not to see it that way at all. For Americans, nationalism is something that trancends differences of regionalism and ethnicity and creates positive unity.

[Sven G]

... Why do people become racist? Besides obvious issues such as ignorance and egoism, also because they feel powerless and insecure - and why that? Who expropriated their sense of solidarity and reduced it to fear and hate? The government with its corrupted politicians? Partially yes, of course. But who "elected" the government? Again, the people (or part of them, anyway), exercising their supposedly "free" will (maybe after having been brainwashed for years by the apparently "neutral" media!)...

It really looks like a vicious circle: if people lack positive, solidarity-based ethical values, they'll tend to elect racist-type politicians in order to "enforce" restrictive conditions for immigrants; if politicians lack the same positive values, they'll tend to enforce their fears on the population, especially those of the "weakest" sectors, like the immigrants.

Democracy doesn't work at all if it isn't deeply based on universal human values like solidarity, liberty, equality and difference - also and above all for the so-called "immigrants"...

[deekay1]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Now, you seem (implicitly) to be associating Republican politics with anti-immigrant or racist politics.

where did you get that idea??

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

Of course, there are people of both parties that hold them, but I wouldn't say that they are dominant views.

i would actually expect some "national" chauvinism (if you like that term better) and racism from SOME republicans, yes. and a lot of racism from people like the "arian youth"... just as in europe i'm sure that a lot of republicans tacitly hold the kinds of views expressed vocally by the far right.

otoh i have never met a racist or nationalist anarchist or social dmocrat...i would really be surprised to find a "national"-chauvinistic and racist democrat. please name one.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

Nevertheless, I go back to what I said initially. Anti-immigrant feeling is widespread in Europe.

again, it's not THAT wide spread! do you have any numbers to back up your claim?

personally i feel that nationalism is dangerous and patriotism superflous....

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by deekay1:
otoh i have never met a racist or nationalist anarchist or social dmocrat...i would really be surprised to find a "national"-chauvinistic and racist democrat. please name one.

I'm talking mostly about ordinary people I have lived, worked, gone to school with, or otherwise had contact with since moving back to the US. Certainly many of the people I have worked with or come across over the years have had more-or-less racist views, and certainly chauvanist ones. Though I am not going to name them, I can think of people in that category who have expressed those views who vote Democratic as well as others who vote Republican. Do you really think that only Republicans are ignorant on race issues? That's a very naive view! Try hanging out in blue collar circles a bit more. I think you'd discover that reality is not as rosy as you seem to think it is. Many union members and other working class/lower middle class people are quite anti-immigrant and anti-foreigner and are not particularly PC about it either. The same, unfortunately, also goes for the middle and upper classes. I can think of liberals here in DC who I know who will express anti-racist views in public but who would not live in a minority neighborhood and who do not associate with minorities except in extremely socially-unequal situations. This is, unfortunately, reality.

As for providing numbers, I said that my view of Europe is subjective. It's based on 21 years growing up and living there. It's not a scientific view, just an opinion. Ditto my opinion about how ordinary people think here in the US. I'm not a social scientist or a pollster, just an ordinary person who keeps his ears open.

personally i feel that nationalism is dangerous and patriotism superflous....

And personally I disagree, at least in the context of the US. Whether inter-European nationalism is dangerous and superflous is a different question. Did you read the second part of my post about the different context that exists between the US (a mature federal state) and Europe (an embryonic one)? I think that makes all the difference in the world.

In addition, in the context of the US, patriotism and national identification with America has served the valuable role of displacing other national identities. It prevents the importation of other national rivalries into the US. Without that, the US would collapse into unworkable factionalism.

[voodoo]

I must say, Simey, your experience of Europe is fundamentally different from mine. Your descriptions have always sounded like the description of a foreigner that has visited Europe, never feeling like it was his home. You describe it very differently from the way I would. To me you are describing some other continent, because you are not describing the Europe I know.

I can relate to it. I lived in Sweden once for two years, and I use similar thoughts about it as you do with Europe.

But, I wasn't there for 21 years. I was only there for 2 years.

[Usama's Carcass]

Give it up, deekay. Even the Taliban in Afghanistan didn't get the bitch-slapping you're receiving right now. I'm also glad to see I've been somewhat vindicated by Simey's arguments (not that he's taking my side, infidel that he is). Woe unto you, deekay! Loser.

I am now Usama 2.0. MacNN logged me out for some reason, and I lost the password for my email address that the 'carcase' was linked to. I have adopted the American English spelling of 'Carcass', not that many of you infidels have noticed.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by Usama's Carcass:
Give it up, deekay. Even the Taliban in Afghanistan didn't get the bitch-slapping you're receiving right now. I'm also glad to see I've been somewhat vindicated by Simey's arguments (not that he's taking my side, infidel that he is). Woe unto you, deekay! Loser.

and again, please be either informative, funny, or shut the f�ck up, you worthless piece of shyt!

if anybody else here thinks i'm receiving a slapping, please provide some information on how this is happening. as far as i can tell simey is pretty much backing up into the "it is from my personal obeservation!" mode (which is cool with me).

you on the other hand, are one little cowardice a$$munch! please, do us all a favour and climb back beneath them rocks! thank you.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by voodoo:
To me you are describing some other continent, because you are not describing the Europe I know.

I can relate to it. I lived in Sweden once for two years, and I use similar thoughts about it as you do with Europe.

But, I wasn't there for 21 years. I was only there for 2 years.

Right, but Sweden isn't the part of Europe I lived in. I can't comment about Scandanavia because I don't know it. I lived in the UK and in Germany. I think you would agree that you can't paint an entire continent with a single brush. Do that and you really are treating it as a tourist would.

Part of my perspective comes from not being an outsider. I did, after all, grow up there. I went to school there and got my early working experience there. Then I came back to the US as an adult. That puts me in a different position to compare than most people. For example, if a person goes to a country as an exchange student, they are going to come into contact with a different cross-section than if they get their K-12 education in a country. A university setting is much more selected by class and opinions are much more likely to be filtered. Frankly, people don't say things to outsiders that they do say to friends and family.

Also, I should mention that a lot of my opinions come from reflecting on my experiences after they happened. It's not that I felt like an outsider when I lived in Europe. It's more that having been both an insider there and also an outsider I have been able to make some observations that aren't quite so colored by the parochialism that I had when I was busy living and working in one spot.

One of the things that is pretty clear to me is that Europe is only now beginning to get to grips with what mass immigration really means. For most European countries, mass immigration began no earlier than the 1950s. For many, it was much later than that. It's going to take European society a while to adjust. Frankly, many seem to be mired in the stage that the US went through a long time ago where a myth of seamless integration substituted for reality. That's the denial I was talking about and it is dangerous because Europe is a multicultural society today and must adjust. Instead of dismissing the US (often painful) experience, Europeans would do better to try to learn from it and thereby hopefully avoid repeating some of the mistakes we made here. But I fear that an ideological aversion to all things American is going to prevent that.

[Usama's Carcass]

Originally posted by deekay1:
you worthless piece of shyt!

It isn't my fault you're in denial about rampant European racism. Getting some cognitive dissonance--reality one way (deep racism in Belgium, Lux., Germany, etc.) and your little fantasy is quite another way.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I'm talking mostly about ordinary people I have lived, worked, gone to school with, or otherwise had contact with since moving back to the US. Certainly many of the people I have worked with or come across over the years have had more-or-less racist views, and certainly chauvanist ones. Though I am not going to name them, I can think of people in that category who have expressed those views who vote Democratic as well as others who vote Republican. Do you really think that only Republicans are ignorant on race issues?

we were not talking about ignorance. we were talking about "racism" and "nationalism". please stay on topic.

from MY personal experience, i have only met conservative and fascist racist and nationalists (which kind of makes sense)

people on the left side of the fence that i know, otoh, tend not to be racist...

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

That's a very naive view! Try hanging out in blue collar circles a bit more. I think you'd discover that reality is not as rosy as you seem to think it is.

again, please stay on topic. we were not talking about class!, we were talking about republicans (conservatives) and democrats and or other people on the "left".

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

Many union members and other working class/lower middle class people are quite anti-immigrant and anti-foreigner and are not particularly PC about it either.

i know

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
In addition, in the context of the US, patriotism and national identification with America has served the valuable role of displacing other national identities. It prevents the importation of other national rivalries into the US. Without that, the US would collapse into unworkable factionalism.

and i personally believe people don't neccessarily need a national identity to define themselves (or hide behind). there are many different things one could identify with, nationality being only one option out of many...

[deekay1]

Originally posted by Usama's Carcass:
It isn't my fault you're in denial about rampant European racism. Getting some cognitive dissonance--reality one way (deep racism in Belgium, Lux., Germany, etc.) and your little fantasy is quite another way.

okay...numbers please! or have you too lived in europe for 21 years?

[Usama's Carcass]

Originally posted by deekay1:
okay...numbers please! or have you too lived in europe for 21 years?

Some Dutch people not long ago threw something at a black player for a French sports team and yelled nasty things at him. This stuff doesn't happen in America at sporting events any more, because almost all the players are black. The racists stay home.
I avoid Europe (Britain not included!) like the Black Plague that it is (save its architecture), though I have plenty of friends that have been there. One referred to Belgium/Lux./etc. as the 'most racist people' he's ever met. Considering he's from the South of the Great Satan, that is saying quite a bit. Flee to hide back in your dream world, where your world view will never be challenged.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by Usama's Carcass:Some Dutch people not long ago threw something at a black player for a French sports team and yelled nasty things at him. This stuff doesn't happen in America at sporting events any more, because almost all the players are black. The racists stay home.

*rotflmao* gee, i've been noticing a sharp incline in numbers of black hockey players. mmmhhh.

oh, yeah. racism doesn't happen in america if it doesn't happen at sports events. my, my are you a genius...

Originally posted by Usama's Carcass: I avoid Europe (Britain not included!) like the Black Plague

good. one less dimwit conservative to worry about over here

Originally posted by Usama's Carcass:
One referred to Belgium/Lux./etc. as the 'most racist people' he's ever met. Considering he's from the South of the Great Satan, that is saying quite a bit.

oh, well okay then, of course. the fact that i grew up here, know about a gazillion people of all walks of life, and have lived in europe almost exclusively for the last 32 years is nothing compared to the keen observation of your esteemed friends

p.s.: judging from your signature, humor, next to logic and reason, doesn't seem to be one of your strong points either...

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by deekay1:
again, please stay on topic. we were not talking about class!, we were talking about republicans (conservatives) and democrats and or other people on the "left".

I am on topic. Voters come from all classes. Some are Republican, some are Democrats. Some are racially tolerant and others are not. I'm not trying to paint any overly-broad generalizations here. All I'm suggesting is that you can't assume that because someone votes for a liberal party it means that they hold progressive views on all issues. In my experience it just isn't so.

As for "we weren't talking about ignorance, we were talking about racism" I'd say the two tend to go hand in hand.

[Usama's Carcass]

Racism happens a lot in the Great Satan. But the Lesser Satans in the EU also contribute heavily to the final total. To deny it brings you to a level of insanity not seen since the French thought they could regain the empire after World War Two.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Usama's Carcase:
Never. The West is outnumbered by Third-world, West-hating countries. The world powers (and the world's only true superpower) would never allow them to set global policies or laws.

Imagine the UN General Assembly running the world. HAHAHAHAHAH! As much as I hate you western infidels, mired in your own blasphemy and sin, I would keel over and die (again) if the African, Eastern and Central European, and other crappy nations started making world policy.

Little w�nkers like you who have never left home and feel free to pontificate on the rest of the world are the reason I hardly ever post in the POS forum any more.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I am on topic. Voters come from all classes. Some are Republican, some are Democrats. Some are racially tolerant and others are not. I'm not trying to paint any overly-broad generalizations here. All I'm suggesting is that you can't assume that because someone votes for a liberal party it means that they hold progressive views on all issues.

oh please, you are nit picking by now. there is a difference between broad generalizations and making an educated guess based on personal experience.

it just looks like your experience is just really different from mine.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

As for "we weren't talking about ignorance, we were talking about racism" I'd say the two tend to go hand in hand.

you said:
"Do you really think that only Republicans are ignorant on race issues?"

i think there is a slight but important difference between being overtly nationalist and racist, and simply being "ignorant" about race issues.

the point is, and i stand by that claim, people on the "right side" of the political spectrum tend to be the racist ones. does that mean that ALL conservatives (republicans) are nationalist or discriminate on the basis of "race". certainly not!

does it mean that only republicans are ignorant on race issues? no, i'm sure there are a lot of neo-nazis which are far more racist....

[Usama's Carcass]

Originally posted by theolein:


Little w�nkers like you who have never left home and feel free to pontificate on the rest of the world are the reason I hardly ever post in the POS forum any more.

My 'pontification' is true whether you like it or not. The UN General Assembly has no place making world policy, and the great powers will not tolerate being dictated to by second-rate countries who'd be no less noticed if they were on the moon. Cling to your fantasy ideals for a world federation, but I live on planet Earth.

[Usama's Carcass]

Originally posted by deekay1:
does that mean that ALL conservatives (republicans) are nationalist or discriminate on the basis of "race". certainly not! ... does it mean that only republicans are ignorant on race issues?

I'd say that you know nothing of the republican party--certainly nothing beyond the liberal, left-wing, propaganda editorials in your newspapers and on the tele.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by deekay1:
you said:
"Do you really think that only Republicans are ignorant on race issues?"

i think there is a slight but important difference between being overtly nationalist and racist, and simply being "ignorant" about race issues.

You are making too much of a simple turn of phrase. "Ignorant on race issues" is just another way of saying "racist." Perhaps not the burning crosses and wearing sheets type of racist, but racist nevertheless. After all, can a person really be enlightened about race and be a racist? No, I don't think so. And once again, I have met racist Democrats as well as Republicans. Sad, but true.

On a more important subject: again, I disagree with your conflation of nationalism and racism. They are not the same thing. For one thing they are distinguishable because race and nation are not one and the same in multicultural countries. My nation does not have only one race and therefore my nationalism does not elevate one race above others. Not unless you think that "Americans" have suddenly become a race. I realize, of course, that there are extreme nationalists who are racists. But their stupidity and ignorance does not govern the issue.

The irony about all of this is that European post-nationalist triumphalism is beginning to look to the rest of us a whole lot like simple nationalism. It's just that you have shifted your identities from the constituent nations of Europe to Europe itself and compare that "nation" favorably with other nations. That's probably a healthy development. I just wish you'd be a little more honest about it.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by Usama's Carcass:
I'd say that you know nothing of the republican party--certainly nothing beyond the liberal, left-wing, propaganda editorials in your newspapers and on the tele.

and i'd say you're full of shyt!

[deekay1]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I have met racist Democrats

well, i haven't....

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

I realize, of course, that there are extreme nationalists who are racists. But their stupidity and ignorance does not govern the issue.

...but the root of their stupid worldview is all the same, - racist or nationalist. wether somebody believes in one's superiority on the basis of "race" or if somebeody believes to be "superior" on the grounds of nationality, differs only in as much as there really is no such thing as "race" (scientifically speaking).

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

The irony about all of this is that European post-nationalist triumphalism is beginning to look to the rest of us a whole lot like simple nationalism. It's just that you have shifted your identities from the constituent nations of Europe to Europe itself and compare that "nation" favorably with other nations. That's probably a healthy development. I just wish you'd be a little more honest about it.

oh b$. nobody here gives a shyt about being a member of the eu as a personal trait or characteristic. nobody really identifies with the eu on a cultural level.

[Mastrap]

Simey, you might be able to shed light on this having lived in both cultures - I believe that there is racism wherever you go, be it the EU or the US. However, at least when comparing my own personal experiences in London to say, Chicago, I believe that the US is if not the more racist definitely the more segregated society. A black guy I worked with moved with his white wife from NYC to London because he felt he could walk down the street here without getting hassled.

[tooki]

My experience & opinion, as an American who lived in Switzerland (in the same city as Theolein, in fact) for 7 years, and just got back from a 3 week visit there. Note that this is not to be taken as a scientifically researched thesis, but as a personal experience.

Note: "racism" is a slight misnomer, since, especially in Europe, many of the groups in question are white. Perhaps ethnicity would be a better word?


The Swiss, like many Europeans, have a love-hate relationship with the U.S. -- they eagerly adopt American pop culture, such as our movies, fashion, fast food, etc., but then turn around and bash the U.S. over just about anything they can (racism, politics, obesity problem and eating habits, etc). Also, I must agree that Europeans seem very averse to American criticism.

As far as racism, Europe basically has been slapped with a problem -- culture clash and mass immigration -- that the U.S. has had for a while, and they don't know what to do with it. They've been branding Americans as racists for as long as I know, but they themselves are, if not in word then in practice, appreciably racist. But [to go off on a tangent], is it all really racism? Humans (like most animals) were designed to recognize patterns and commonalities, so that we remember symbols rather than specific examples (so that we can, say, recognize a chair as being a chair, even though it's a design we've never seen before). In Switzerland, most crime is committed by foreigners, despite the fact that they make up only about 25% of the population. It's not unreasonable to deduce, then, that more foreigners than Swiss are criminals. We can find similar patterns in the U.S.* [/tangent.] This doesn't mean that real racism doesn't exist, and I can say that I saw and heard more overt racism in the 7 years I was in Switzerland than in all the years I ever lived in the U.S. (12 yrs). But a lot of what is called racism or racial profiling appears to me to be simple pattern recognition.

Generally, I would have to say that in Europe, "nationality" is where your family is from, not where you live, or even where you were born. (Many European countries will not grant foreigners' children citizenship even if born in their country, unless the child would have no citizenship otherwise. This is why Switzerland and Germany, for example, have many "foreigners" who were born and raised there, yet are not citizens. When you combine true foreigners who have naturalized, you have the odd combination of people who are culturally foreign but hold citizenship and others who are culturally completely local, but don't hold citizenship.)

I do not see that the groups agains which racism is practiced as integrating into mainstream culture in the U.S. or Europe. They seem to self-segregate, thus slowing integration, which in turn leads to a preference to self-segregation...

It's curious how in almost any public restroom in Switzerland, someone has scrawled on the wall some comment like "shit Albanians" or "Yugos OUT." I've never seen any such thing about anyone in a bathroom in the U.S. As I said, I see more overt racism in Europe than in the U.S.

Another thing to consider: Europeans often cite how they read some horrible news (for example, school shootings) from the U.S. every day. What they usually fail to consider is that no European country even approaches the size of the U.S, both in land mass and population sizes. It's no wonder that we have more bad stuff going on, in absolute numbers: we've got more people. When you adjust European and U.S. rates to per-capita numbers, they suddenly don't seem so different...

I know this is disjointed and all, but perhaps may throw in some interesting seed thoughts...

tooki




* For example, there was a recent study done which ended up refuting the NAACP's charges of racial profiling when pulling over cars. They alleged that police pull over black drivers more than white drivers, just because of race. The study, done using automated cameras, discovered the true reason that conspicuously high numbers of blacks get pulled over: in the study, blacks speeded more often than whites did.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
Simey, you might be able to shed light on this having lived in both cultures - I believe that there is racism wherever you go, be it the EU or the US. However, at least when comparing my own personal experiences in London to say, Chicago, I believe that the US is if not the more racist definitely the more segregated society. A black guy I worked with moved with his white wife from NYC to London because he felt he could walk down the street here without getting hassled.

Well, I'm a white guy. I really am not qualified to comment on the differences in race relations in the US versus the UK, or elsewhere in Europe. I have heard anecdotal evidence from black friends (espacially in the Army) that they encountered problems while in Germany, and I also encountered overt discrimination by Germans against Turks when I was living in Mannheim. And of course, I am generally aware of the history of race relations in Britain (i.e. the Brixton riots). And like any American, I am aware of the continuing racism here in the US, as well as our shameful record.

But all that tells me is there is a problem. I can't comment on the degree of problem either here not there. And frankly, I'm not even sure an African American can either because one of the things that I have heard from black friends when they travelled in Germany and especially France was that they encountered a marked change in attitude once people realized they were Americans, and not North Africans. I heard the same thing from British people when I lived in the UK. Black American GIs were "OK" in many people's eyes because they were visitors from the US. Immigrants from the Caribbean were seen as quite different. Whether that sheds any light on your friend's experience or not I really don't know. But then again, I'm not arguing that racism is unique to either US nor European culture so much as I am arguing that it is not something isolated in a political fringe. It is sadly much more widespread than that.

Edit: I just saw tooki's post. Very interesting.

[Mastrap]

Intresting stuff indeed.

I know that I myself have my prejudices which I am aware off - and frequently ashamed.

In London, the vast majority of street crime, muggings, watch and handbag snatching, car jacking etc, is comitted by male black youth under the age of 25. While a fatal outcome is rare it does occasionaly happen. This is of course highly visible crime with the result that all back youths are seen as suspicious and, in some but increasing cases, as undesirable elements. The fact that a large percentage of black youths cultivate the external trappings of being a 'gansta' does not help. So, is it racism that people are suspicious of groups of young black men at night? My liberal side tells me not to be racists, my "I've lived in London long enought to know when to be careful' side tells me to cross the street, walk purposefully and keep a keen eye on the buggers just in case they're after any funny business.

The vast majority of burglaries are committed by white criminals of a similar make up and age. Because the crime is generally a non-visible one there are no similar reactions towards equivalent white guys.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by tooki:
Note: "racism" is a slight misnomer, since, especially in Europe, many of the groups in question are white. Perhaps ethnicity would be a better word?

you've got a good point there. i was wondering today, why somebody who lived in europe for quite a while could come to the conclusion, that most countries here have a big problem with racism.

this certainly does NOT reflect my experience. but, what i also was thinking, is that what some people would consider "racism" others might not even recognize as such.

then i would a agree, that a lot of people in almost all countries i've been in europe have certain "prejudices" about various different folks from all different regions in the world ( a kind of ethnic stereotyping, if you will).

that to me is NOT racism or nationalism, for that matter.

being a racist to me always entails ones clear and distinct received superiority over people of "lesser" races. it almost always also goes hand in hand with a deeply felt hatred and fear of folks who are "different" (either ethnically, "racially", or in terms of nationality).

not that condone "ethnic" stereotyping, on any level!!!!, but imho it is quite different from racism and nationalism.

the thing that makes these two "views" of others somewhat similar, is that their proponents actually believe, that there is something "INTRINSIC" (genetic) about being "black", turkish, armenian or german, which can NOT be modified by external influences (nature vs. nurture). i think that is what also makes this kind of thought "interesting" to many conservatives.

personally i believe that humans are 80% a product of their environment and 20% a product of "genetic" predisposition (figures that are backed up by many different anthropological studies).

in the views of racists and, to a lesser extent, of those who engage in various degrees of "racial/national stereotyping", these figures are exactly reversed.

...just some thoughts.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by deekay1:
i was wondering today, why somebody who lived in europe for quite a while could come to the conclusion, that most countries here have a big problem with racism.

I'm still amazed that you don't see it but here is a link to the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia (an official EU organization) where you can download their reports (such as this summary. http://eumc.eu.int/publications/ar00/AR_Summary_EN.pdf) You demanded statistics before, so here you are.

By the way, it occurs to me that what you are describing as "nationalism" is probably better rendered as "xenophobia." Nationalism can be confused with simple patriotism. That does not necessarily carry any hostility and can be perfectly benign. Xenophobia, on the other hand does imply hostility and superiority and therefore conveys what I think you want to say much better.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
here is a link

link doesn't work...

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by deekay1:


link doesn't work...

Fixed, sorry.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
As for the Republicans not representing cultural attitudes in the US that's both true and false. Republicans don't represent all Americans but they are something over 50% at present. Given that many Democrats are also quite conservative, I think it is fair to say that broadly conservative views are dominant over left-wing ones in this country regardless of voter turnout.

Are you sure about this? do you have statistics that say republicans are 50% of the population?
could be true, but I would hate for that assumption to be made from the last presidential election.
It should be noted of those who voted, slightly less than 50% voted for Bush. This does not mean only republicans could have voted for him, nor does it mean the voter turnout percentage is automatically representative of the whole, because those who vote will be a skewed sample of those professing a party affiliation (and therefore more likely to participate). If the voter turnout were theoreticaly 25%, and of that, half were republican, it could conceivably only mean there are 12.5% republicans rather than 50% republicans in the population at large.