[fat mac moron]

I don't own a gun, though I enjoy target shooting a few times a year. That said, I found this article fairly interesting from the Telegraph.

Best quote:

"This basic approach of addressing any cultural factors apart from the ones that correlate was pioneered by American progressives. The corpulent provocateur Michael Moore, in his film Bowling for Columbine, currently delighting British audiences, spends an entire feature-length documentary investigating the "culture" of American gun violence without mentioning that blacks, who make up 13 per cent of the population, account for over half the murders (and murder victims, too). Once you factor them out, Americans kill at about the same rate as nancy-boy Canadians."

Read the rest of it here.

Flame away.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by fat mac moron:
I don't own a gun, though I enjoy target shooting a few times a year.

Oooooohhhh. Someone needs a girlfriend!

[fat mac moron]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
Oooooohhhh. Someone needs a girlfriend!

Huh?

[suhail]

"Once you factor them out (Blacks), Americans kill at about the same rate as nancy-boy Canadians."
Is it only me or does this statement sound racist!! On two levels!!

<<he�heh� I spelt it as sacist>>

[Spliffdaddy]

sounds like a fact to me.

"racism" isn't when you mention blacks in a derogatory manner.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
Oooooohhhh. Someone needs a girlfriend!

You offering to be his girlfriend?

[suhail]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
sounds like a fact to me.

"racism" isn't when you mention blacks in a derogatory manner.

Uh� OK

[Hawkeye_a]

Yeah, your right. i also want to point out that once you factor out all those who own/use guns who murder, you are left with only 'nancy-boys'.

Jeeze we better put guns in their hands so they arent 'nancy' boys anymore, lord knows the fact that they are alive is worse than being a 'nancy-boy'. At least they'll be contributing to the fact that guns are a very productive product worth preaching about.....and while theyre at it, id like everyone to write to their local political leaders, demanding the right to own WMDs. it's our right, the constitution says so.

[suhail]

Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:
Yeah, your right. i also want to point out that once you factor out all those who own/use guns who murder, you are left with only 'nancy-boys'.

Jeeze we better put guns in their hands so they arent 'nancy' boys anymore, lord knows the fact that they are alive is worse than being a 'nancy-boy'. At least they'll be contributing to the fact that guns are a very productive product worth preaching about.....and while theyre at it, id like everyone to write to their local political leaders, demanding the right to own WMDs. it's our right, the constitution says so.

[rampant]

it's fucking racist america firstian garbage.

[suhail]

Originally posted by rampant:
it's fucking racist america firstian garbage.

But Spliff said that if it is a fact, then it is not racism
I kinda agree�

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by fat mac moron:
Once you factor them out, Americans kill at about the same rate as nancy-boy Canadians."

once you take out the "evil neg-roes" you are taking away part of the American population...

this is the same logic as saying, once you take out all the americans that kill people, Americans kill at a rate of zero

if you are going to make a statement please make sure it makes sense

[fat mac moron]

Originally posted by Phanguye:
once you take out the "evil neg-roes" you are taking away part of the American population...

this is the same logic as saying, once you take out all the americans that kill people, Americans kill at a rate of zero

if you are going to make a statement please make sure it makes sense

First, it was a statement from the article, which wasn't mine.

I catch your drift though, sorta like "If it wasn't for Windows, Apple wouldn't be at 5%", right?

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by fat mac moron:
I catch your drift though, sorta like "If it wasn't for Windows, Apple wouldn't be at 5%", right?

\

kinda it is because when you take that population group out you are no longer talking about the entire population so it is a falacy

[Mac The Fork]

Once you factor them out (Blacks), Americans kill at about the same rate as nancy-boy Canadians.

sounds like a fact to me.

"racism" isn't when you mention blacks in a derogatory manner.

Sounds like a factoid to me. Even if it isn't, facts need context. I've seen that sloppy correlations are easy to make and are of much more interest to the prejudiced as quotables, than to anyone who wants clear information.

The article isn't just making a correlation either; Steyn uses the correlation to show that blacks should be more thoroughly scrutinised at immigration than others. While the correlation itself isn't racist, Steyn uses it to promote a system which judges people by race. How else would he propose to 'specially' scrutinise them? Since the only correlation he finds relevant is between blacks and gun violence, then the only action that could be taken is to deny entry to black people. That's okay though, since Mark Steyn really convinces me that he and his friends in New Hampshire are the pinnacle of morality. They would kill anyone holding up a gas station! If they were outnumbered by blacks and Canadian nancy-boys, all hell would break loose.

[Cipher13]

PC fools.

Racist-sounding or not, assuming the statement is indeed fact, it is NOT illegitimate to remove blacks, hispanics, whites, or gays from a population to compare changes.

You wouldn't have complained if it was said differently, would it?

Blacks account for 67% of all murders.
Whites account for 5% of all murders.
Hispanics account for 28% of all murders.
These results are SCALED with regard to the size of each unit group.

Right. Keep mind mind, if you want to take this literally: I pulled those numbers out of my ass.

If 15% of the population is black, and blacks account for 65% of all murders, or whatever, then - sorry, but fact is fact, as long as it IS accurate. There's nothing racist, discriminatory, or unfair about it.

Deal.

I don't have a problem with blacks, whites, hispanics, asians, gays, or anyone. And If you wanna get offended for me calling you a white, a black, a gay, a hispanic, an asian, or whatever: blow me. I'll call you whatever the **** I want to call you because I use the terms merely to define people.

[tonton]

The problem is that you can't (nor do I hope you want to) "factor out the blacks".

The fact is that it's not a "black" thing, it's an economic one, which will only get worse because of the Bush administration's recent actions, which will have no other result than to further widen the wealth gap.

To say "factor out the blacks" is indeed racist. To say "factor out the poor" would be more correct, but it is still ignorant of the fact that the same political faction that supports gun rights perpetuates the poverty that results in crime.

[BlackGriffen]

Oh boy. This is rapidly sliding in to another "statistics and race" thread. Let me put it plainly: in order to see if there is any real correlation, in any direction, with race, you need to correct for historical and situational/historical factors that skew the numbers. I'll just list a couple off the top of my head:

• location (black populations tend to be concentrated in inner cities, some of which are damn near as bad as war zones, and would tend to make those who grew up there more violent).
• income (I'm actually not sure if this one is a factor, but one would think that populations with higher income will tend to commit violent crimes like mugging and bank robbery less, though location may account for this since there are "richer" and "poorer" areas).
• opportunity (any sub-population that has less economic opportunity than the majority should have a higher tendency to turn to crime, in frustration, this should account for racism in the population at large).

If anything, I'd bet that when you account for such factors, the murder rates will be lower in the race in question than would be expected (there's my piece of optimism for the year: assuming that people will tend to rise above their circumstances to be good people. we now return you to your regularly scheduled cynic).

BlackGriffen

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by tonton:
The fact is that it's not a "black" thing, it's an economic one, which will only get worse because of the Bush administration's recent actions, which will have no other result than to further widen the wealth gap.

That is not entirely correct. I'd be willing to bet that there are actually two factors needed to get high crime rates: bad economic conditions and high population density. Compare the crime rates in poor rural areas to poor inner cities to verify whether this is true or not. There are also some cultural factors, but it's debatable whether or not the cultural factors arise from the circumstances (high pop + poor) or not.

BlackGriffen

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by tonton:
The problem is that you can't (nor do I hope you want to) "factor out the blacks".

The fact is that it's not a "black" thing, it's an economic one, which will only get worse because of the Bush administration's recent actions, which will have no other result than to further widen the wealth gap.

To say "factor out the blacks" is indeed racist. To say "factor out the poor" would be more correct, but it is still ignorant of the fact that the same political faction that supports gun rights perpetuates the poverty that results in crime.

No.

It is totally fair for me to do any of the following:

� remove blacks from the population and compare statistics
� remove sub-$X salary families from the population and compare statistics
� remove people with Neons from the population and compare statistics

All of that is entirely fair.

Why is it that you can remove people of a certain economic caste from the population, but I can't remove blacks? Hmm? I see little difference.

One thing that must be made clear - these statistics do NOT mean that if you drive a Neon, you're more likely to be a murderer. I'm not looking at causation. This is purely statistical, and must be taken for what it's worth - and it is completely with the statisticians rights to say "blacks account for..." - without saying "black people are more likely to be murderers", even though that may be what the numbers suggest.

[tonton]

This points to the fact that there is inherent racism in the implication that high crime rates are the fault of blacks.

It's as if you're saying "guns don't kill people, blacks kill people".

[Spacemanspiff]

Well...
I'm not American, so I might have missed something here.
But what will happen if you "factor out" the guns...

edit: Sppellinnngs...

[Spliffdaddy]

The bad guys will move in and take over.

[TC]

Originally posted by Cipher13:

� remove people with Neons from the population and compare statistics

Right on, they don't need guns, they've got cars to run you over!
(or did you mean the fish?)

[tonton]

Originally posted by Spacemanspiff:
Well...
I'm not American, so I might have missed something here.
But what will happen if you "factor out" the guns...

edit: Sppellinnngs...

We HAAAVE a winner!!!

[drmcnutt]

Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:
Yeah, your right. i also want to point out that once you factor out all those who own/use guns who murder, you are left with only 'nancy-boys'.

HAHAHAHA...Hilarious, or at least it struck me as so.

DRM

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by Spacemanspiff:
Well...
I'm not American, so I might have missed something here.
But what will happen if you "factor out" the guns...

edit: Sppellinnngs...

How?

Easier said than done, my friend.

BG

[iNub]

Disclaimer: This is an attack. If you are a person that is saying black == crime, prepare to get pissed. If not, then ignore this post. I'm pissed.

It's nice to look at people as one big homogeneous cluster of nondestinct gray people-things, but the reality is that they're not. This reality has little, if anything, to do with the color of one's skin. It has everything to do with the environment they are raised and taught in. I live in one of those places that seem to be reserved for Latinos and Blacks. And you know what I've found? There are just as many crazy white people here as there are mexican and black.

Statistics don't take into account the fact that people aren't defined by the numbers of the people who just happen to have the same color skin. The only reason race matters is because of race.

You rich white people sitting in your houses bigger than my entire ****ing block telling me that all the black people I know are criminals. Well, hey, ya know what? **** you. You don't know this life. You don't know the struggles I see my friends and neighbors going through every day. You don't mention that most crime is committed out of desperation. You don't mention the sad state of our schools. You don't mention the fact that private schools get more money than public schools. You don't mention the ignorance and hate this situation breeds. You don't see this. You don't know this. You are blind. You are ignorant.

[MacOSR]

Originally posted by tonton:
The fact is that it's not a "black" thing, it's an economic one, which will only get worse because of the Bush administration's recent actions, which will have no other result than to further widen the wealth gap.

To say "factor out the blacks" is indeed racist. To say "factor out the poor" would be more correct, but it is still ignorant of the fact that the same political faction that supports gun rights perpetuates the poverty that results in crime.

This is flat out incorrect. Opportunity abounds in the US for anyone willing TO WORK HARD for what they want!

My father grew up poor...but his father worked hard and provided them a roof over their head and meals on their table. My father then worked hard his whole life and became lower middle class.

I have since worked my ass off for what I wanted and I am just about to break out of the middle class. I have worked 100+ hour weeks for 6 years for what I wanted. THE OPPORTUNITY IS THERE FOR ANYONE WILLING TO WORK HARD!

People in the US BELOW middle class PAY NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX! Over 38% of my income is currently going to federal income tax.

The reason there is a "wealth gap" is because I decided to work 100+ hours per week and persue my dreams and other have not. Besides...how do you think the middle class gets their income? From people like me! I can tell you know...IF I do see a tax cut I WILL hire more people!!!!!

Besides...anyone that argues taking away gun rights of Americans has no idea of the ideals this country was founded on! If someone wants to live in a socialistic country they have every right to move to one!

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by iNub:
[i] This reality has little, if anything, to do with the color of one's skin. It has everything to do with the environment they are raised and taught in. I live in one of those places that seem to be reserved for Latinos and Blacks. And you know what I've found? There are just as many crazy white people here as there are mexican and black.

Too damn right. Environmental factors (i.e. inner city slums) create the higher crime rates, not racial ones. The sad fact is of course that most people existing in these conditions are member of minorities.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by MacOSR:


Besides...anyone that argues taking away gun rights of Americans has no idea of the ideals this country was founded on! If someone wants to live in a socialistic country they have every right to move to one!

Would you mind elaborating on that statement? What ideals was the country founded on?

[MacOSR]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
Would you mind elaborating on that statement? What ideals was the country founded on?

I don't mean to be rude but you have the internet at your fingertips and google.com just a click away. You can easily find the information you are looking for if you truly want to find it!

I just got irritated at some comments and had to post

[ollio]

Originally posted by MacOSR:
. THE OPPORTUNITY IS THERE FOR ANYONE WILLING TO WORK HARD!

You still NEED the opportunity to get from your parents:
-Basic needs : a roof, food,...
-Education.

And THEN.... comes the hard work.

not everyone gets those basic things mentioned above.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by MacOSR:
I don't mean to be rude but you have the internet at your fingertips and google.com just a click away. You can easily find the information you are looking for if you truly want to find it!

I just got irritated at some comments and had to post

I know what I think the values were the US was founded on. I was interested in your take. Google doesn't help in that case

[MPC]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
Would you mind elaborating on that statement? What ideals was the country founded on?

Your missing something Mastrap. Here in the U.S.A we live under constant fear of a British invasion. The gun under my pillow protects me from having my family attacked in the middle of the night from the bad teeth army. Also, my family needs food. How can I get food without going out in the forest and killing it? It's not like there is some magical food for sale building at the end of the block.

[MacOSR]

Originally posted by ollio:
You still NEED the opportunity to get from your parents:
-Basic needs : a roof, food,...
-Education.

And THEN.... comes the hard work.

not everyone gets those basic things mentioned above.

I worked full-time and put myself through college as my parents couldn't afford to do so. I couldn't do that again! I averaged about 4 hours sleep every night!

[MacOSR]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
I know what I think the values were the US was founded on. I was interested in your take. Google doesn't help in that case

...just thought you were trying to just argue a point. I don't mind having a discussion! I'll try and post late tonight as I have to head off to the office!

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by iNub:
Disclaimer: This is an attack. If you are a person that is saying black == crime, prepare to get pissed. If not, then ignore this post. I'm pissed.

It's nice to look at people as one big homogeneous cluster of nondestinct gray people-things, but the reality is that they're not. This reality has little, if anything, to do with the color of one's skin. It has everything to do with the environment they are raised and taught in. I live in one of those places that seem to be reserved for Latinos and Blacks. And you know what I've found? There are just as many crazy white people here as there are mexican and black.

Statistics don't take into account the fact that people aren't defined by the numbers of the people who just happen to have the same color skin. The only reason race matters is because of race.

You rich white people sitting in your houses bigger than my entire ****ing block telling me that all the black people I know are criminals. Well, hey, ya know what? **** you. You don't know this life. You don't know the struggles I see my friends and neighbors going through every day. You don't mention that most crime is committed out of desperation. You don't mention the sad state of our schools. You don't mention the fact that private schools get more money than public schools. You don't mention the ignorance and hate this situation breeds. You don't see this. You don't know this. You are blind. You are ignorant.

Is that in reply to me? I hope not, for your sake.

I never said black == crime. I stressed the fact that my statistics were bullshit and for example use only.

I don't care if you're black or latino and you're offended by me.

Anyone who is easily offended - **** you.

If it just so happens that 12% of handgun murders are caused by blacks? SO BE IT. If it was whites causing 88% of them? FINE.

It is very, very simple. The correlation exists. Do not mistake it for something it is not.

But anyway. Time to play the devils advocate.

ASSUMING those statistics are correct - it WOULD suggest black == crime. Just like it's more likely for a right handed person to be a murderer, given their superior numbers. Scale the numbers and that may be further blown out of accuracy.

Anyway. Take a statistics course and you'll realise nobody is saying black people are more naturally inclined towards evil. But the NUMBERS speak for themselves. If you ONLY consider colour, sure, black people are more dangerous. Now consider socioeconomics - poor black people are more dangerous. Now consider geography - poor black people living in slums are more dangerous. Now consider family status - abused poor black people living in slums are more dangerous still.

Get it yet?

[Matsu]

Groverat around? Remember some of those things that virtually guarantee poverty?

There's nothing racist about saying blacks affect, and are effected by, a disproportionate amount of crime (or gun crime).

[andi*pandi]

macOSR:
People in the US BELOW middle class PAY NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX!

Oh gee, then when I was just out of college and earning $17,000 per year, I was middle class? I didn't get the memo. I was too busy paying my taxes, bub.

I think you have to make less than $6,000 per year to not pay taxes. A person working fulltime at minimum wage earns about $13,000 per year. They are paying taxes, but I damn sure wouldn't call them middle class. Poverty level does NOT EQUAL middle class.

[Spliffdaddy]

[Spliffdaddy]

even better:

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/treblinka.jpg

[Simon]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
I never said black == crime. I stressed the fact that my statistics were bullshit and for example use only.

I don't care if you're black or latino and you're offended by me.

Anyone who is easily offended - **** you.

If it just so happens that 12% of handgun murders are caused by blacks? SO BE IT. If it was whites causing 88% of them? FINE.

It is very, very simple. The correlation exists. Do not mistake it for something it is not.

Absolutely Cipher. I fully see your point and I agree.

I think the problem here is that you try to argue an extremely rationalist case whereas some people here see it from a more emotional point of view. They know that putting out such numbers will - in 90% of the minds in public - produce one thought: blacks are evil guys, we have to crack down on em. Since they don't want this to happen they don't like statements like those you used as examples. I think that is a valid point as well. I don't mind the truth at all - especially when it comes in numbers, but actually we are not talking about the truth, but about its implifications on the readers. That belongs to the responsibility of the people who publish such results.

Now wait just one more moment, because I'm afraid I'm gonna get some replies like "but, there's no bullshitting around the fact that the numbers prove blacks to be more criminal than whites, etc...". That's not the point. Why? I'll try to explain with an example: Has it never occured to you people here that we never get to see newspaper headlines like "Scientific study shows: 95% of capital crimes are commited by men - we need laws against men", but as we all know we can see a lot of headlines like "Jails full of foreigners - we need to pass harder laws against immigrants".

Doesn't it strike anybody here that the truth is clear and simple in both situations, but that in one we try to make a political case out of it and in the other we just say that that's the way the world is and we'll have to deal with it. If a group of woman starts gathering votes for laws that hit only male civil rights they will be boo-ed down in no time and be chased out of the country as lesbian leftist feminist freaks. If society does this to foreigners it's ok. You see what I'm trying to get at...

It's not about the truth at all. The numbers are clear and public. It has to do with what you imply when you state such stuff in certain situations. That's where racism comes into the game.

[suhail]

Originally posted by iNub:
Disclaimer: This is an attack. If you are a person that is saying black == crime, prepare to get pissed. If not, then ignore this post. I'm pissed.

It's nice to look at people as one big homogeneous cluster of nondestinct gray people-things, but the reality is that they're not. This reality has little, if anything, to do with the color of one's skin. It has everything to do with the environment they are raised and taught in. I live in one of those places that seem to be reserved for Latinos and Blacks. And you know what I've found? There are just as many crazy white people here as there are mexican and black.

Statistics don't take into account the fact that people aren't defined by the numbers of the people who just happen to have the same color skin. The only reason race matters is because of race.

You rich white people sitting in your houses bigger than my entire ****ing block telling me that all the black people I know are criminals. Well, hey, ya know what? **** you. You don't know this life. You don't know the struggles I see my friends and neighbors going through every day. You don't mention that most crime is committed out of desperation. You don't mention the sad state of our schools. You don't mention the fact that private schools get more money than public schools. You don't mention the ignorance and hate this situation breeds. You don't see this. You don't know this. You are blind. You are ignorant.

I agree�

[suhail]

Cipher13
Anyway. Take a statistics course and you'll realise nobody is saying black people are more naturally inclined towards evil. But the NUMBERS speak for themselves. If you ONLY consider colour, sure, black people are more dangerous. Now consider socioeconomics - poor black people are more dangerous. Now consider geography - poor black people living in slums are more dangerous. Now consider family status - abused poor black people living in slums are more dangerous still.
Get it yet?

I think iNub is saying that it's not the people it's the neigborhood. And he is right, in any country where there are poor neigborhoods, there is a higher crime-rate. The real question might be, why are many of the poor neigborhoods have a high count of blacks and hispanics.
I think iNub answered some of that too, he said that the level of education is low. Which means families there are too poor to send their kids to a higher educational system.

[Matsu]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
even better:

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/treblinka.jpg

Jews in the NRA, or zionist propaganda? HAhaHA!!! Weird, but hard to refute, funny though that so many neo-nazi like types are among the NRA's supporters.

I kid, that's another issue really -- legal gun owners themselves rarely (almost never) pose a threat. Canada itself actually has quite a few legally registered weapons: 6-7 million for a population of about 30 million. Legally owned guns factor into less than a fraction of a percent of all gun related crime. I think it was 00.17%, but I can't find the numbers just now. Hardly a good argument for gun registries.

I think there might be more intelligent ways to deal with gun violence.

[maxelson]

Welcome to America where all men are created equal. All this crap is going to continue until we enforce the right to arm bears.