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typoon · Apr 10, 2003, 11:51 AM

Anyone know if the Microsoft Bluetooth Keyboard and mouse work with OS X? Are there any other companies like Logitech or somebody who makes one? cords are driving me nuts and I would like to have less cords laying around.

xtal · Apr 10, 2003, 01:29 PM

As far as I know, the MS combo doesn't work with OS X. There are no alternatives currently. If you have a penchant for wireless, you could pick up a Logitech combo wireless KB and mouse and use that (over RF) with a USB emitter.

-Q- · Apr 10, 2003, 01:33 PM

They didn't in this thread, nor did they in this thread. They didn't in this one either.

The logitech RF ones work nicely tho'.

sensorfreaky · Apr 10, 2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by xtal:
As far as I know, the MS combo doesn't work with OS X. There are no alternatives currently. If you have a penchant for wireless, you could pick up a Logitech combo wireless KB and mouse and use that (over RF) with a USB emitter.

But now that 10.2.5 is out, looks like there is new MS bluetooth keyboard/mouse support.

Unconfirmed but we'll see once someone actually tries one.

-Q- · Apr 10, 2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by sensorfreaky:
But now that 10.2.5 is out, looks like there is new MS bluetooth keyboard/mouse support.

Unconfirmed but we'll see once someone actually tries one.

Just beat me to the news.

MaxPower2k3 · Apr 10, 2003, 03:41 PM

from the KB article on 10.2.5:

Bluetooth Setup Assistant now works with certain Microsoft keyboards and mouse devices.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25405

dccski · Apr 10, 2003, 04:35 PM

apple care just said we still need to wait for ms drivers.

Conrad · Apr 10, 2003, 04:59 PM

I'm currently typing this message from the Bluetooth keyboard and the using the Bluetooth mouse to hit "Send". Both pair and work decently from 10.2.5 however, the current MS IntelliPoint and IntelliType drivers don't work. Therefore you can't use the extra keys nor can you remap the keys - by default the "Windows" key is command, not the Alt key.
Also, it is important to note that I am using the MS supplied Bluetooth receiver that is known to be Bluetooth HID compatible. I do NOT know if any other receivers, including the builtin Apple PowerBook receivers, work.
--Conrad

dccski · Apr 10, 2003, 05:28 PM

is there any delay in mouse or typing with bluetooth

sensorfreaky · Apr 10, 2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by dccski:
is there any delay in mouse or typing with bluetooth

Most likely. Not really a factor with the keyboard but the low refresh rate will not be acceptable for the more precise and responsive mousing needs of photoshop, games, etc for most people. Still better than a trackpad when travelling with a BT-enabled notebook though. It's the price you pay for bluetooth connectivity (if you have to have it)

MaxPower2k3 · Apr 10, 2003, 07:02 PM

why would there be lower resolution as opposed to an RF mouse? is ~1MBPS (maybe 750KBPS realistically) not enough for a mouse?

sensorfreaky · Apr 10, 2003, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by MaxPower2k3:
why would there be lower resolution as opposed to an RF mouse? is ~1MBPS (maybe 750KBPS realistically) not enough for a mouse?

Not lower resolution but lower refresh rate resulting in diminished pointer accuracy when it comes to fine mouse movements and also short, quicker mousing movements. The bandwidth is fine but the refresh rate is where it counts when it comes to mice. Trust me, try one of the earlier cordless RF mice - they are unacceptable... and to think bluetooth has even lower refresh rates than those. Currently, the only cordless mice technology that rivals corded mice is logitech's MX-series.

MaxPower2k3 · Apr 10, 2003, 08:04 PM

still, is RF that much faster than bluetooth in that respect?

sensorfreaky · Apr 10, 2003, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by MaxPower2k3:
still, is RF that much faster than bluetooth in that respect?

Not sure what you mean by "faster"

I'm talking about higher refresh rate. Don't confuse the radio frequency that devices operate at with the refresh rate (frequency) as measured in Hz.

RF mice and keyboards operate at 27MHz and bluetooth operates at 2.4GHz (hopping). This figure has little to do with the refresh rate, at least directly.

A wired USB connection has a refresh rate of approximately 125Hz (fast) and by comparison, the average USB wireless RF mice/keyboard has a refresh rate of about 50Hz (slow). That's less than half the "speed" of a wired connection. Microsoft has improved on this with a refresh rate of 80Hz on products like the cordless Intellimouse Explorer. Logitech upped the ante even more by matching the refresh rate of wired USB mice at 125Hz for their MX line of cordless mice. All other cordless mice still have refresh rates hovering around 50-60Hz which is why you notice a lag or delay. While this is not an issue with keyboards, it is very noticeable with mice.

Now I don't have an exact figure of bluetooth's refresh rate but I do know that it has less than 1/10th the bandwidth of USB and most certainly a lower refresh rate than the average wireless RF USB connection (50Hz). On a good day, it will probably be as responsive as the least responsive RF mouse. The fact that bluetooth operates at 2.4GHz with frequency-hopping at 1 MHz intervals (to reduce radio interference) may have something to do with the limited refresh rates.

geekwagon · Apr 10, 2003, 10:55 PM

I just did a quick google and found a few pages that said the Bluetooth Desktop mouse from MS has a refresh of ~80hz. So thats not too bad. Hopefully they will be quick about adding support for it to their drivers, I don't really want to pay $85 for a mouse with only 2 buttons.

I want to use this with my PB 17", and I can't stand trackpads so obviously even if it is a bit slower than a USB mouse it is still going to be a huge improvement for me.

djjava · Apr 10, 2003, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by geekwagon:
I just did a quick google and found a few pages that said the Bluetooth Desktop mouse from MS has a refresh of ~80hz. So thats not too bad. Hopefully they will be quick about adding support for it to their drivers, I don't really want to pay $85 for a mouse with only 2 buttons.

I want to use this with my PB 17", and I can't stand trackpads so obviously even if it is a bit slower than a USB mouse it is still going to be a huge improvement for me.

i want a bluetooth mouse as much as the next, but maybe for different reasons... mostly, the reason is I JUST PAID $3500 FOR A POWERBOOK WITH BLUETOOTH, I WANT TO USE IT!!!

in a nutshell.

geekwagon · Apr 11, 2003, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by djjava:
mostly, the reason is I JUST PAID $3500 FOR A POWERBOOK WITH BLUETOOTH, I WANT TO USE IT!!!

I hear you. I was leaving that "unspoken." When I first thought about getting the 17" right after Macworld I had to go out and buy a Sony T68i and a Palm Tungsten T just so I would have all my bluetooth gear ready to go

Thankfully I was able to use a dongle to get me by until my 17" came though. It makes for great "show off" material to keep people interested after the initial hook of "wow, that is a cool looking laptop" wears off..

weldon · Apr 11, 2003, 01:10 AM

I was really excited to see that note about MS bluetooth in the 10.2.5 release notes. I hope this works out because I would love a bluetooth mouse.

Conrad · Apr 11, 2003, 02:59 AM

The response of the mouse and keyboard are adequate for non-game use as far as I can tell. However, I reserve judgement until MS releases drivers for these products. With standard keyboard and mouse configuration options, I can get both working to my liking, but I would hardly consider them great. Let's hope MS releases drivers soon.
Conrad
P.S. I find this keyboard and this mouse to be the most comfortable I've owned. My hand is very relaxed holding the mouse, and I can type faster on this keyboard than any I've ever owned.

typoon · Apr 11, 2003, 11:52 AM

Does anyone else other than M$ make a bluetooth Keyboard/Mouse combo?

Conrad · Apr 12, 2003, 05:32 PM

I wanted to share my experiences of using this setup over the past couple of days. I'm really impressed. The keyboard and the mouse are very responsive - definitely not for gaming though. The keyboard is incredibly comfortable, and I'm astonished by how fast and accurately I can type on it. I'm looking forward to the release of MS drivers so that I can swap the Windows and Alt keys as well as being able to use the programmable and media keys. The mouse is the most comfortable I've owned by far. My only complaint is that I seem to accidently press the right mouse button more often than usual. The thing that really surprises me is how well IOBluetoothHIDDriver.kext works. I've had repeated problems in XP where this mouse and keyboard suddenly is no longer recognized, and I'd need to plug in another KB and mouse to pair them again. But this hasn't been a problem in 10.2.5 yet. whenever I plug the dongle in again, the computer recognizes the mouse and KB and I'm off working. Kudos Apple Bluetooth Team! The other thing I can't comment on yet is battery life. I've had these working in XP for a couple weeks prior to 10.2.5 and haven't had to replace the AAs yet. Overall, I'm very pleased with these in 10.2.5 and I expect to use them for several years, but I'll say more when/if the MS drivers are released.

ssegaric · Apr 13, 2003, 11:11 AM

Has anyone with the MS bluetooth mouse tried the USB overdrive shareware to configure the buttons?

Steve in Toronto

Conrad · 11:59 AM

No, USB Overdrive X doesn't recognize the BT mouse. I am using uControl to swap the Command and Option keys though now. Works flawlessly.

Conrad · Apr 17, 2003, 01:47 AM

A user on the Apple Bluetooth Developer mailing list reported that he uses the Bluetooth Mouse with his 17Inch PowerBook. I suppose it's safe to assume that the Keyboard will work as well.

Conrad · Apr 22, 2003, 12:03 AM

I'm using the keyboard and mouse with a Belkin USB Bluetooth adapter now. The performance is not as good as that of the MS adapter, but it's sufficient. I guess that means the keyboard and mouse are compatible with most any OS X compatible BT adapter.