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Hi I'm Mike · Apr 16, 2003, 05:17 PM

I'm thinking we need to either somehow get on a mailing list or even an AIM list or other messaging service so that we are there for each other with tips and to help each other if someone wants to do this or that, or if you have a better idea of doing something.

I know that we have these forums here and everything but somehow I think we need to get close nit. Stop with the hey "he is stealing my stuff", the more we work together the more each of our different themes will grow from each others and the more people will love them

alright just had to say that

So someone figure out a way.

NetworkShadow · Apr 16, 2003, 07:39 PM

Sounds cool! I'm into designing themes, but haven't made any on my own yet.

I'm thinking about my next one after DarkGlass already.

Mac Guru · Apr 16, 2003, 09:58 PM

If iChat had buddy groups I'd be all over that idea, but I have a crapload of buddies and don't want more unless I can group them into like "MacNN Themers" group or something.

APPLE LISTEN TO ME PLEASE!!!

Patcarla · Apr 16, 2003, 10:04 PM

That's a good idea Mike. I just made my very first theme (thread ; http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=156133 ). And i'm all for people improving it or at least giving advices... I just in the learning curve so..

schep · Apr 16, 2003, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by Mac Guru:
If iChat had buddy groups I'd be all over that idea, but I have a crapload of buddies and don't want more unless I can group them into like "MacNN Themers" group or something.

APPLE LISTEN TO ME PLEASE!!!

SUBMIT FEEDBACK, actualy i'm going to do that right now

CarbonG4 · Apr 16, 2003, 11:21 PM

If themers actually wanted to do this I think a room on irc.macnn.com for us to idle in (and chat in of course) would be more viable than an aim chat group.

//Carbon

NetworkShadow · Apr 16, 2003, 11:23 PM

Hmm maybe... A forum just for themers? Or are we thinking chat?

Hi I'm Mike · Apr 16, 2003, 11:38 PM

please do not put buddy groups in ichat. at least not as the standard!!! I love not having groups, I like to see all the people online in one area, and all the rest i don't need to worry about down below. It isn't that hard to remember who is who.

SteevAK · Apr 17, 2003, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by CarbonG4:
If themers actually wanted to do this I think a room on irc.macnn.com for us to idle in (and chat in of course) would be more viable than an aim chat group.

//Carbon

Sounds like a good idea to me.

It would be better than an AIM chat room. I've been in those before...they ain't so cool.

Zimphire · Apr 17, 2003, 02:17 AM

There was someone that was going to make a new theme page wasn't there?

CarbonG4 · Apr 17, 2003, 02:24 AM

There was someone that was going to make a new theme page wasn't there?

Yeah... pretty sure that fell through months ago

I think it's best just to leave things as they are, host your own themes on your own site... but not everyone can host their themes, so maybe if we get a themers community going we could help each other out. I know I could probably help some others out if they needed some space and had a page designed.

Just thinking...
//Carbon

iRebound · Apr 17, 2003, 02:46 AM

Originally posted by Hi I'm Mike:
please do not put buddy groups in ichat. at least not as the standard!!!

then make only one group... simple

Zimphire · Apr 17, 2003, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by CarbonG4:
Yeah... pretty sure that fell through months ago

Well last i heard about it was a few weeks ago. I think a central theme page would be beneficial

mrtew · Apr 17, 2003, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by Hi I'm Mike:
Topic: Anyone who has made a complete theme(100% their own) come in.

Did you throw in that (100% their own) part to keep me out since I've asked for help making my theme recently? :-]

invisibleX · Apr 17, 2003, 09:02 AM

I've made a few themes in my time

Brien · Apr 17, 2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
There was someone that was going to make a new theme page wasn't there?

Which one? Synotic's new iStudio or Matt's new xtheme?

Carbon, I like your IRC idea...

keston · Apr 17, 2003, 04:42 PM

I think a themeing forum is more of a better idea.. that way you dont need an irc client, and you can see the discussion even after it has taken place. But isnt that what there is right NOW in the GUI customization forum? A forum dedicated to theming would make it easier to find the info or participate though. So maybe someone could setup one, or get one created on an existing web board?

With an IRC channel, if i ask a question, someone there may or maynot be able to answer it, and after i get my answer it really doesnt help anyone else that is not present to read it at the time. Same goes for AIM/iChat.

bOOzo · Apr 17, 2003, 05:02 PM

There has been ideas like this before, but they have never worked out. It's too much hassle for everyone to go to a new forum - Why not just post mockups here and ask for suggestions? I think it works well.

Or do you want more of a secret collaboration with only themers?

Hi I'm Mike · Apr 17, 2003, 05:28 PM

i only want themers to themers interaction. where we can work together with the themers and or the producers of the programs going into making themes. telling each other things that we do even if it isnt important.. instead of making tons of posts in here and be like what about this resource. i think this forum is good to ask a few people about things and this and that.. but not a lot of people always come here. i dunno i think it should be closed but open in a way. where we can build up something together and excite people more. than just posting mock ups and having them critique them. we could critique themes in between us and then post the final.. but mainly just so themers can build up a better close nit group and so they will help each other so that we can bring it to the next step. cause in all honesty, we could be doing a lot better than we are doing.

p.h..i...l.... · Apr 17, 2003, 05:37 PM

dont understand why you want to have it separeted, closed and secret. leave it here, let others, non-themers participate..... just my 2 cent.

CarbonG4 · Apr 17, 2003, 05:39 PM

I kind of like the idea of a closed forum somewhere, requiring a password or whatever, so that theme makers can do just what you're saying... post mockups and ask questions about glitches/troubleshooting w/o having to show their theme design to the public before it's anywhere near it's release date. I like to post previews of my themes to get a feel for how people will accept the design, but there are times when it would be nice to keep an entire design under wraps but still be able to get feedback and help from those familiar with making themes before going public. If that makes sense.

How many times have we seen screenshots of the ThemePark editor showing custom widgets with a masking glitch

People who post those shots are obviously looking for help from theme makers on how to solve/correct the glitch, while at the same time they have to make their initial widget design public... which in turn automatically opens it up for public critque.

//Carbon

TheIceMan · Apr 17, 2003, 05:44 PM

Hi I'm Mike and Fellow Mac Themers:
I agree with what you're saying. As a "consumer" of themes, and not a "producer/creator" of themes I do not possess the technical or creative skills to create themes. I LOVe themes and use them all the time. I want to be able to give constructive and helpful feedback to the themers but it's so far beyond my comprehension.

I just wanted to say that I appreciate (and I think the Mac community appreciates) what you guys do for the Mac platform.

Whatever you guys decide on doing, just know that we're thankful for your hard work.

bOOzo · Apr 17, 2003, 05:50 PM

Ok, well that makes sense to me. I have a mockup right now that I want feedback from, but not reveling for the public. So where could such a forum be hosted..?

mrtew · Apr 17, 2003, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
Ok, well that makes sense to me. I have a mockup right now that I want feedback from, but not reveling for the public. So where could such a forum be hosted..?

I don't understand at all Max, or Mike. Why would anyone want feedback on their mockups from a bunch of bitchy jealous themers, when they could just get it directly from the public who loves and appreciates themes? Come one Max, show us your mockup!!!

Hi I'm Mike · Apr 17, 2003, 06:46 PM

Yea, I'm not always good at getting out my point but eventually it comes out. So to sumarize and add new points what I want is somewhere to talk to other themers that already do know what to do and do know what they are doing(in a sorta way) I mean just themers that have gone through the entire process of coming up with their own idea or either copying from a blah windows idea and making a theme from scratch. I don't mean themers that are just modifying this theme or that theme and saying I just made this theme come use it.
So what I am sorta saying is just a place for themers to talk about ways they do things, talk to maybe the developers of programs that involve theming, and to post to each other their theme mock ups without worrying about them getting out into the public and being shown too soon.
How many times have you seen a theme posted just to ask what someone thinks of something and then people start demanding it to be done and they want it now and if not then you are a terrible person for posting a screen shot. I mean just a place to be able to post. get feedback and continue to work on it without someone elses deadline.
hell i think we would all get a lot more done and a lot more themes could come out of this and a lot more better themes could come out of it and a lot more different themes would come out of it. so that we know what each other are doing and tell each other what we think and what we might do to make it better.. without nagging from others.. im not saying i hate the nagging and dont like the positive feedback im just saying that some people would help out more knowing that their projects wont be copied by someone just trying to help or something.. i dunno i think i failed at saying what i mean

Hi I'm Mike · Apr 17, 2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by mrtew:
I don't understand at all Max, or Mike. Why would anyone want feedback on their mockups from a bunch of bitchy jealous themers, when they could just get it directly from the public who loves and appreciates themes? Come one Max, show us your mockup!!!

Because sometimes we want to post a mock up when we arnt even starting a theme.. or if we are in the first stage of a theme. most of the time mock ups or screen shots are made to see feedback but make us rush a theme just so we can finish other parts just so the one parts look right. I'd want to post my widgets for feedback without having to do my titlebar. to post my scroll arrows without worrying about doing my scroll fill.. etc.. without being told that this theme should be out right now and i want this i want that

and you are a themer john, just need to read a tutorial

CarbonG4 · Apr 17, 2003, 07:23 PM

I think this is headed in the right direction. We need a private forum for those who have created their own themes to discuss, troubleshoot, and share mockups under the agreement of absolutely no outside (ie, public) posting of mockups.

Each time someone posts a troubleshooting question that displays any part of their theme that person is immediately rushed (in general) on these boards to complete it or to have beta releases. It shouldn't be this way but it's completely understandable that people are eager to use new designs.

If we had a forum (maybe we could set one up w/ FunMac.com like Max uses for his site forum) and have some of us be moderators that would require us to activate accounts before a person would be allowed to view the forum. Basically, accounts would be given to those who have made a theme, or whatever. I don't want to sound controlling, but in order for someone to have access to this forum they would have to agree to the basic purposes of such a forum -- complete respect for each other's work, this means not posting or showing or discussing designs outside of the forum until the developer himself/herself makes the design public.

Another good reason for having a private forum would be to allow theme makers to share mockups before they start developing, just to ensure we don't have 3 different people all working on the same/similar idea, that way efforts aren't wasted -- we all know how time consuming and tedious this work can get at times.

Btw, I agree with Mike on including theme software developers 100%. I mean, the theme Nathan and I have coming wouldn't be nearly as unique w/o the work of Smeger. And what good would our themes be w/o theme changers? Not a whole lot of end users would install themes manually.

//Carbon

CarbonG4 · Apr 17, 2003, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
Ok, well that makes sense to me. I have a mockup right now that I want feedback from, but not reveling for the public. So where could such a forum be hosted..?

Funmac.com seems to be down right now... Max, you have your forums through them, is this a pay service or would it be free for us to setup a locked forum w/ them?

Also, if nothing else I'm sure I could get a forum hosted on 621.org w/o any problems.

Colonel_Panic · Apr 17, 2003, 08:28 PM

carbon, I can create a private forum on my site for you themers if you want

Mac Guru · Apr 17, 2003, 09:34 PM

I setup a channel on irc.hashmark.net for us.

#osxthemes

Feel free to come on in and chat away, it's a permanent channel so don't worry about it not being there if you want to chat.

See ya there!

Hi I'm Mike · Apr 17, 2003, 10:08 PM

don't get too carried away here yet and just think that you are doing good by going off and creating a page where people can use it or an irc channel and say here people can use this.
so far it seems to me that all themers want this done and the general public do not. and that is how I thought it would be. I know for a fact that theming will not die if we did this, it would only grow better, in the right direction, theme program developers could beta test out their products to a select few without having to be hush hush about things just so other people don't rip off their product. and or like i have heard over and over, those developers getting on each others case about this or that, the code for this and the code for that, who cares, work together and make something very useful with everyone, use your time to make something great. Not something to out do someone else trying to make something else. ie, themechanger and duality. Stop charging for your **** no matter how much time you put into it or what you do with it. we are all doing an illegal thing here in making themes and making programs to either edit files or install the files.. you should NOT be making a profit off of it. I know you will bitch and moan about this and that, like I put in 50 hours this month or 40 this month working on this and I want to see some money for it. Stop making programs then if you feel this way. I make themes because I love the mac OS, I love tinkering around with things and doing different things. I will never sell my themes or even accept donations no matter how many people love it. Do it for the love of doing it, not for the money. like some of you are starting to get into. seriously if we work together we WILL make something better and WILL produce much nicer/original themes.

Just the other day I suggested putting an editor into themepark and I got blasted right away, being told that it wouldn't be plausable or whatever. I think this would be the best thing developed into that program. Do you know how many extra hours each of us spend copy and pasting and waiting for the program to copy and paste? Do you know how fast it would be to have an editor inside of the program to do the simple changes and see real time results? To see if your grey mask for inactive is indeed going to work correctly just by click on a different color and seeing the results to the right? would it not be easier if when selecting the pxm in the middle colum also select all the images in the third colum so that you could copy them right away instead of hearing a beep and make you go into the third colum to select one image and then select all? Why do our suggestions get thrown back in our faces when we are the ones making the themes and know of ways that would make everything smoother? If you dont have enough time to put in an editor or just dont want to then let someone else take over because this function is definatly needed, sure we would still use photoshop for somethings but it wouldnt have to be used as much as it is right now. i could see the time making a theme be cut down by 3/4ths if an editor was built into themepark. a little editor like the one in iconographer would be great like i said. where you can see each pixel to edit it and you can see real time results, instead of picking and choosing and copy and pasting.
again i have way more to say but I forgot what else to say so I will remember later on and go on and on about it at another time. Sorry I just have to get all this out.
I really need to work on my grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc. I am sorry.

Mac Guru · Apr 17, 2003, 10:12 PM

I didn't jump the gun making an IRC Channel, I've been thinking about it for quite a while and have gotten a lot of positive feedback from it's creation. If the IRC Channel isn't popular, I'll get rid of it. Simple.

Hi I'm Mike · Apr 17, 2003, 10:48 PM

i'm not trying to personal attack anyone here. just throwing out my opinions

bbxstudio · Apr 18, 2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Hi I'm Mike:
i'm not trying to personal attack anyone here. just throwing out my opinions

See this post:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...07#post1352407

Hi I'm Mike · Apr 18, 2003, 01:29 PM

saw it

smeger · Apr 18, 2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Hi I'm Mike:
Just the other day I suggested putting an editor into themepark and I got blasted right away, being told that it wouldn't be plausable or whatever. I think this would be the best thing developed into that program. Do you know how many extra hours each of us spend copy and pasting and waiting for the program to copy and paste? Do you know how fast it would be to have an editor inside of the program to do the simple changes and see real time results? To see if your grey mask for inactive is indeed going to work correctly just by click on a different color and seeing the results to the right? would it not be easier if when selecting the pxm in the middle colum also select all the images in the third colum so that you could copy them right away instead of hearing a beep and make you go into the third colum to select one image and then select all? Why do our suggestions get thrown back in our faces when we are the ones making the themes and know of ways that would make everything smoother? If you dont have enough time to put in an editor or just dont want to then let someone else take over because this function is definatly needed, sure we would still use photoshop for somethings but it wouldnt have to be used as much as it is right now. i could see the time making a theme be cut down by 3/4ths if an editor was built into themepark. a little editor like the one in iconographer would be great like i said. where you can see each pixel to edit it and you can see real time results, instead of picking and choosing and copy and pasting.
again i have way more to say but I forgot what else to say so I will remember later on and go on and on about it at another time. Sorry I just have to get all this out.

I'm sorry that you feel this way. It certainly wasn't my intention to come across as a jerk.

What it comes down to is this: I have limited development time available, and creating an editor is not something that I feel that my development time would be well-spent doing. If you'd like to write an editor, and it meets my quality standards, I'll be more than happy to integrate it into ThemePark. If you don't like ThemePark, nothing is forcing you to use it.

Stop charging for your **** no matter how much time you put into it or what you do with it. you should NOT be making a profit off of it. I know you will bitch and moan about this and that, like I put in 50 hours this month or 40 this month working on this and I want to see some money for it.

Yup, I sure am going to bitch and moan.

Here's a breakdown of last weekend: On Friday, I worked 9 hours at my regular job and then came home and worked for five more on ThemePark. On both Saturday and Sunday, I worked 15 hours on ThemePark. The only social things I did last weekend were a couple of meals with friends.

ThemePark has been available to the public for over a year, for free. This has been:

Because I still consider it to be "unfinished"
In order to foster a vibrant theming community
Because it makes me happy to see people get excited about creating things using a tool that I provide.

I've devoted at least 500 hours of my spare time to developing ThemePark. If it were contract work, I'd be billing $100/hour for this time. There is absolutely no way that I'll be reimbursed for my time spent, even once I begin charging for TP. And I'm fine with this, but I want you to understand the situation.

Let's take a look at the software I currently maintain:

ThemePark - has been free for over a year, will be $20 once version 1.0 is released.
Theme Fur - created so that themers wouldn't lose the time they'd invested in creating their themes. Free. No donations requested.
ImagePreUnMultiplier - created to help themers get good-looking results. Free for personal use, no donation requested.
Chicken of the VNC - Open source. Free, no donations requested.
Mighty Mouse - shareware.

So, I think I've given plenty to this community and am well within my rights to charge for my work.

If you still don't agree, then I guess we've got irreconcilable differences.

Stop making programs then if you feel this way.

Is this really what you'd like me to do?

smeger · Apr 18, 2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by Hi I'm Mike:
i'm not trying to personal attack anyone here. just throwing out my opinions

I understand, and the same goes for me.

bbxstudio · Apr 19, 2003, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
Ok, well that makes sense to me. I have a mockup right now that I want feedback from, but not reveling for the public. So where could such a forum be hosted..?

Why not just try email Max? - I've been doing this stuff for years and have gotten some terrific feedback by simply zipping off previews (with the understanding that all is top-secret) to other designers whose work I respect... never once have I had a leak or stolen idea surface. You could even invite a few guys to participate in a scheduled iChat session for more immediate feedback if that's what you wanted.

I'd hate to see the nitty-gritty go undergound - by doing so you just alienate people who could themselves eventually become very talented theme designers (we all gotta' start somewhere after all... where else is one supposed to learn?). If the knowledge and discoveries stay out in the open, everybody benefits in the long run...

By all means, keep the stuff you want to be a surprise under wraps, but don't drive the general base of knowledge underground or into a members-only scenario... Look to the Desktopper guys for the moral standard - sure they get together and work sh*t out behind the scenes, but their discoveries are then blown out for all of us to share (and if it weren't for the Desktopper guys' discoveries, we'd all be way behind the curve).

If there's something you need an opinion or advice on that you don't want shared with the general public, just get together with your fave hardcore themers in scheduled chat sessions or something (somebody saves a transcript and emails all participants - instant archive) I just don't think creating an elitist uber-themer community/forum is the way to go at all.

So show me what you got Max - I'll keep my mouth shut about it, I won't show a soul, and I'll give you an honest opinion, straight up.

bbxstudio · Apr 19, 2003, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by Hi I'm Mike:
Why do our suggestions get thrown back in our faces when we are the ones making the themes and know of ways that would make everything smoother?
...

If you dont have enough time to put in an editor or just dont want to then let someone else take over
...

Stop charging for your **** no matter how much time you put into it or what you do with it... you should NOT be making a profit off of it. I know you will bitch and moan about this and that, like I put in 50 hours this month or 40 this month working on this and I want to see some money for it. Stop making programs then if you feel this way.
...

I really need to work on my grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc. I am sorry.

Man, your grammar is the last thing that you should be working on