[Sealobo]

You can be a nice guy/gal, love the people around you, be gentle to small animals, help the poor and keep the street clean without subscribing to any religion. So why do you have a religion? Because you can't continue to do the above without the spiritual support from your god? Or you think you started to do the above because your god made you to? I am confused. If these are non-factor then i guess it has to be the heaven-attraction factor? I know some would say "hey you just won't get it, it's all about faith". But seriously i wanna find out why because my beloved gf just won't have a discussion with me on this regard.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

My neighbors are Catholic and the nicest people in the world. We help them at there Church fundraisers, they don't care that I am gay and the mother even works in the gay community. They never preach, threaten me or their kids with hell, they understand that sex before marriage happens and deal with it in a loving caring way.

And then there are Catholics that take the other approach... fear and hate.

[Superchicken]

Being a Christian isn't just about being a nice person. It's a bout an inward change, the being nice is simply an expression of that inward change. It's a change in the nature of who you are. You live to serve God, and one way you serve God, is by taking care of the earth He gave us, and the people on it.

I'm a Christian because it makes sense and I have found no flaws in it.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
Being a Christian isn't just about being a nice person. It's a bout an inward change, the being nice is simply an expression of that inward change. It's a change in the nature of who you are. You live to serve God, and one way you serve God, is by taking care of the earth He gave us, and the people on it.

I'm a Christian because it makes sense and I have found no flaws in it.

The above can be said about everyone who turns to any of the many true religions. You do not need to be a Christian for it. Native American Indians, for example, felt very similar about their place within creation.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
You live to serve God, and one way you serve God, is by taking care of the earth He gave us, and the people on it.

Well Bin laden thought he was serving his God so why is your religion right and his not?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
My neighbors are Catholic and the nicest people in the world. We help them at there Church fundraisers, they don't care that I am gay and the mother even works in the gay community. They never preach, threaten me or their kids with hell, they understand that sex before marriage happens and deal with it in a loving caring way.

And then there are Catholics that take the other approach... fear and hate.

PSST it's not based on fear or hate.

And I have no problems with people being homosexual either. People can do what they want. I don't recall ever threatening any kids to hell either.

[7Macfreak]

i think one aspect of religion is that it makes things easier. it's like a law that no one wants to argue with or question. so in that sense its okay. you could also look at it as a 'pruning' device. can't let your garden grow wild. you gotta trim the weeds or whatever.

what you shouldn't do is extreme things like killing in the name of.

more later.

[Zimphire]

I myself feel more alive and free since I started having faith.

It's not binding as some would try to portray it.

You don't care about worldly things. They no longer bind you.


I see more people bound by worldly wants and desire than people bound by Christ.

I myself have been guilty of this.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
PSST it's not based on fear or hate.

And I have no problems with people being homosexual either. People can do what they want. I don't recall ever threatening any kids to hell either.

You no, others yes. Sorry.

Just like you think homosexuality is a sin other Christians don't.

[Superchicken]

Actually it can't be said for all major religion. The state religion of india is actually against helping other people, because if someone is in a bad state it must be their punishment by life. that's why so many hospitals there are set up by Christian aid groups.

[ASIMO]

Born-again atheist.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:

Just like you think homosexuality is a sin other Christians don't.

Actually a very very small percentage of Christians don't.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Actually a very very small percentage of Christians don't.

There are PLENTY of "Christians" who are very mild in their practice of faith.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
There are PLENTY of "Christians" who are very mild in their practice of faith.

I noticed how you put quotes around Christians when describing them.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I noticed how you put quotes around Christians when describing them.

Well yeah, some Christians are devout, others are just "Christians"

[Superchicken]

any Christian that refuses to admit the basics of sin probably isn't born again

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
There are PLENTY of "Christians" who are very mild in their practice of faith.

So they are casual-charistians? I just asked this friend of mine if she truly believes in her God she said "half".

[Superchicken]

If she doesn't believe, then she can't claim that is her God. Dout is one thing, being casual about it is another.

Revelations states a message God sent to one of the churchs, "I would rather you be hot or cold, for if you were luke warm I would spit you out of my mouth."
Casual christians disgust God

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
If she doesn't believe, then she can't claim that is her God. Dout is one thing, being casual about it is another.

Revelations states a message God sent to one of the churchs, "I would rather you be hot or cold, for if you were luke warm I would spit you out of my mouth."
Casual christians disgust God

I'm about as casual of a Catholic as you can get. I do my fair share of sinning, and thus I cast no stones. There's the fornication and what not.

But on the same note, I do all I can to be a good man. Not perfect, I have some rage control issues, but for the most part I do well by my fellow humans. If that makes me 'lukewarm' and gonna get me spit out, well, I'll live with it, cause I did the best I could do. And believe me, I can be much worse, without much prodding. If the big guy can't accept that, oh-well.

[simonjames]

Religion is a great teacher for morals and for respect - hence the reason why religion is equated with "niceness" - however being nice has nothing to do with being religious.

Its often been said "treat others as you would have them treat you" - a very basic but beautiful rule of life

[version]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Actually a very very small percentage of Christians don't.

Not really true that one. have you seen the Christians in the Far-east, Mid-east, Africa, and many other places? I'd say there are more Christians against homosexuality, than for it.

[Superchicken]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
I'm about as casual of a Catholic as you can get. I do my fair share of sinning, and thus I cast no stones. There's the fornication and what not.

But on the same note, I do all I can to be a good man. Not perfect, I have some rage control issues, but for the most part I do well by my fellow humans. If that makes me 'lukewarm' and gonna get me spit out, well, I'll live with it, cause I did the best I could do. And believe me, I can be much worse, without much prodding. If the big guy can't accept that, oh-well.

If this is honestly the person you are, then I would have to say, you may be a great catholic. But you are not, and have never been a Christian. A Christian is someone who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, AKA God. Anyone who is a genuine Christian, will progressively gain a desire to serve God, and be a better person for Him, they will not be satisfied with being luke warm.

I don't say this to insult you, but to simply alert you, that on the day you die, if you do not choose to accept forgiveness of your sins, and His rule over your will, then you will, sadly, go to hell.

[Face Ache]

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
If this is honestly the person you are, then I would have to say, you may be a great catholic. But you are not, and have never been a Christian. A Christian is someone who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, AKA God. Anyone who is a genuine Christian, will progressively gain a desire to serve God, and be a better person for Him, they will not be satisfied with being luke warm.

I don't say this to insult you, but to simply alert you, that on the day you die, if you do not choose to accept forgiveness of your sins, and His rule over your will, then you will, sadly, go to hell.

You're really screwed up. Get (non-religious) help.

I don't say this to insult you, but to simply alert you.

[Superchicken]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
You're really screwed up. Get (non-religious) help.

I don't say this to insult you, but to simply alert you.

The voices in my head say you want to hurt me...

[simonjames]

No prizes for guessing which end of the bell curve of intelligence superchook is at!

Superchook - you really are doing no favours for yourself here. I guess anybody can get on the internet and therefore we shouldn't be rude but you should learn to be quiet sometimes kid.

[Superchicken]

Originally posted by simonjames:
No prizes for guessing which end of the bell curve of intelligence superchook is at!

You know the last time someone insulted my intelligence, I think I might have been in like grade 9 or 10, and surprise of all surprises, it was a geek with no friends... well I shouldnt' say that he had two friends, who people only talked to if they wanted to know the awnser to question number 5.
In my experince the only people who go around making others sound less inteligent than themselves, are insecure, geeks. And when I say geeks, I don't want to be confused for implying the type of geekness associated with linux, or the Mac or anything like that. These are just geeks who look forward to getting a new graphing calculator, because their two friends will be so jelious.

So while you very well may be more inteligent than me. (Which by the way I dout.) I really couldn't care less

[Superchicken]

By the way, while I'm proving you're an ass. Who the heck makes a comment like that? Was it supposed to imply that others would agree with you? Or do you normally simply act as if you are obviously superior to other people, and hence assume you should be able to make statements like that?

If someone is genuinely inteligent. Not just someone who happens to excel in math or something like that. Most people like this are actually humble about their abilities because they are secure in who they are. And they don't need to insult other people's abilities because they are satsfied with their own strong and weak points.
Why on earth would you feel the need to be critical of someone, esspecially in an area so subjective as perceived inteligence?

Sorry normally people on here can say completely ignorant things, and it's obvious that they know they sound like morons. But seriously, how old are you?

[simonjames]

Superchook - to answer your question I am 38

And now (IMO) you need to act a little more grown up by dropping the religious drivel. People generally don't mind well thought out arguements or statements of opinions but when you blurt out $hite like "casual christians disgust god" or "you will sadly go to hell" you don't get any meaningful message across - you only reinforce to the reader how small & closed minded you are.

You need to read and think about the conversation that is happening within the topic and if, only if, you feel you can really add something of value to the topic should you post. Tonight/today/whatever you have logged into the lounge and posted on nearly every topic at the top of the screen. The half I read was just plain crap. Sorry but it was.

I am not being an intellectual snob - just asking you to be considerate and thoughtful.

[Diggory Laycock]

Religion is an emotional prop.

Human beings are too intelligent to be ignorant of the fact that they will die eventually.

How do console yourself when as a child you first realise that you - *yes you* - will die?

Oh it's all right - If I'm good I'll go to Heaven / The Elyssian Fields/ paradise / Etc...

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Actually a very very small percentage of Christians don't.

I call bullsh!t, let's see some numbers.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I myself feel more alive and free since I started having faith.

It's not binding as some would try to portray it.

You don't care about worldly things. They no longer bind you.


I see more people bound by worldly wants and desire than people bound by Christ.

I myself have been guilty of this.

Heh. I don't find myself bound to earthly possessions... no belief in God is necessary to free you from such things.

That isn't about faith in God.

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
Being a Christian isn't just about being a nice person. It's a bout an inward change, the being nice is simply an expression of that inward change. It's a change in the nature of who you are. You live to serve God, and one way you serve God, is by taking care of the earth He gave us, and the people on it.

I'm a Christian because it makes sense and I have found no flaws in it.

Sure isn't about being a nice person, is it? I'm sure the Romans would attest to that quite happily.

Taking care of the earth he gave us, and the people on it? Again, Romans. Talk to them about it.

Or, hey, nowadays, what about homosexuals? Hmm? You call THAT "taking care" of?

No flaws in it? Sigh.

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
My neighbors are Catholic and the nicest people in the world. We help them at there Church fundraisers, they don't care that I am gay and the mother even works in the gay community. They never preach, threaten me or their kids with hell, they understand that sex before marriage happens and deal with it in a loving caring way.

And then there are Catholics that take the other approach... fear and hate.

Sounds like my parents. The good kind of Catholics.

[dav]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:

Just like you think homosexuality is a sin other Christians don't.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Actually a very very small percentage of Christians don't.

it's a simple point, does stating that it might only be a small percentage make you feel better?

[shmerek]

I thank god every day that I am not religious

[typoon]

Originally posted by simonjames:
Religion is a great teacher for morals and for respect - hence the reason why religion is equated with "niceness" - however being nice has nothing to do with being religious.

Its often been said "treat others as you would have them treat you" - a very basic but beautiful rule of life

My question is do you need religion to teach you morals? Do you need it to teach you respect? Isn't that the JOB of the PARENTS? My parents are NOT by any stretch religious but they taught me about morals and respect. Equating the teaching of morals and respect to religion is a bunch of bull. You don't need religion to teach you something your parents should have taught you to begin with.

I don't need religion to teach me things my Parents should have already taught me.

Religion teaches people they should be kind to others, have morals, respect others, Help other people as well as many other things. You don't need religion to teach you these. If Parents live and teach by example then there is no need for religion to teach you these things.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by typoon:
My question is do you need religion to teach you morals? Do you need it to teach you respect? Isn't that the JOB of the PARENTS? My parents are NOT by any stretch religious but they taught me about morals and respect. Equating the teaching of morals and respect to religion is a bunch of bull. You don't need religion to teach you something your parents should have taught you to begin with.

I don't need religion to teach me things my Parents should have already taught me.

Religion teaches people they should be kind to others, have morals, respect others, Help other people as well as many other things. You don't need religion to teach you these. If Parents live and teach by example then there is no need for religion to teach you these things.

I agree.

To the thread: I think a common mistake is thinking that religion is a teacher, or that religion is a path to prosperity or that religion is a club to beat others over the head that you disagree with.

I like to remember when David as a very young man smote goliath. What happened is that Goliath and the philistines were arrayed against the Isreali army, and Goliath (purportedly nine feet tall) insulted God and challenged anyone to a one on one battle. When David came to the battlefield, King Saul had offered his daughter to any soldier who would face Goliath and win (obviously, he wouldn't marry his daughter to a corpse). Much of the discussion among the soldiers was about who would fight him in order to get the king's daughter.
David heard the discussion and essentially said: "We should fight him because he has insulted God, and not for the king's daughter"

Now, not that I'm avocating stoning people who insult God here, but pointing out that many people mistakenly assess religion from the point of view of what it will give them in return. Some think "I'll be a nicer person" or "I'll have prosperity" or "my life will be wonderful". They are like the soldiers.
But religion is a commitment to God (or an ideal or a prophet or whatever the religion is based on) , because its the right thing to do , regardless and independent of whatever life affords along the way, regardless of whether its easy, or you prosper or not. Religion is all about doing the right thing as an act outside of your life, using your life to accomplish good, not as a life enhancement.

Being nice is the responsibility of the individual, independent of religion.
Religion can help the individual, by giving focus and direction, but that is not what religion is for. Religion is not a 12 step program, it is not a methadone clinic, it is not a treatment for unruliness, it is not a way to get women, it is not a way to have others respect you.

It is a choice you make because to you it is the right choice.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by version:
Not really true that one. have you seen the Christians in the Far-east, Mid-east, Africa, and many other places? I'd say there are more Christians against homosexuality, than for it.

And I would agree with you, but that is for another topic.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
You're really screwed up. Get (non-religious) help.

I don't say this to insult you, but to simply alert you.

No he's not. He is dead on.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
=Heh. I don't find myself bound to earthly possessions... no belief in God is necessary to free you from such things.

I felt the same way before I was a Christian.
T

Or, hey, nowadays, what about homosexuals? Hmm? You call THAT "taking care" of?

No flaws in it? Sigh.

There was no flaws, Man choose sin. Man fell. This world belong to the "Lord of the flies" now.

[typoon]

George Carlin Put it best especially for Thou Shalt not Kill. Actually his version of the 10 commandments is dead on. ONe of the reasons I don't believe in a Religion is because I feel most if not all are hypocritical.

THOU SHALT NOT KILL

Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Cashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I felt the same way before I was a Christian.
T

There was no flaws, Man choose sin. Man fell. This world belong to the "Lord of the flies" now. [/B]

1. Great. You were mistaken, as you proclaim. I'm not.

I may not have faith in an afterlife, or a God, but I do have faith in this:

There is a greater power. Be it sentient, or not; a bunch of aliens to whom we are merely playthings/experiments; whatever. I don't know. I don't know what's in store for after I die, and I don't care.

I don't care if nothing happens. If nothing happens, I'm not missing anything. I will never know it. I'm suffering (or not) the same fate as everybody else, anyway, so what difference does it make?

I don't need faith; I have indifference instead.

That - indifference - frees me of all my earthly chains, in the end.

2. There were indeed flaws. If you don't want to accept them, okay. Your problem. Not mine. Humankind are part of the problem; but if the system doesn't cater to its target audience, isn't the system also flawed? Sure is.

[Zimphire]

You think there are flaws because you are looking at it through your secular non-believing glasses.

Those that aren't willing to see, wont.

Yes, I am going to post this one again.

Romans 1:20-22
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and divine nature, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Dan 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

Dan 12:8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"

Dan 12:9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Dan 12:10 "Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

This explains why some people just don't "get it"

It's not that they are incapable of it. Everyone is capable.

You have to open your heart before your mind can see the truth.

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
You think there are flaws because you are looking at it through your secular non-believing glasses.

Those that aren't willing to see, wont.

Yes, I am going to post this one again.

Romans 1:20-22
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and divine nature, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Dan 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

Dan 12:8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"

Dan 12:9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Dan 12:10 "Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

i just had a question here, for all the devotes here. Obviously you get into debates about this quite often. However, i dont understand why you feel the need to argue with scripture. Obviously, if they dont believe, then the scripture might as well be fiction to them.

wouldnt it make more sense to debate using logic, but then again how to do use logic to debate something that you feel???

so i guess really, what is the point of these debates?

[dav]

Originally posted by Phanguye:
what is the point of these debates?

i'm guessing ego.

[typoon]

Originally posted by Phanguye:
i just had a question here, for all the devotes here. Obviously you get into debates about this quite often. However, i dont understand why you feel the need to argue with scripture. Obviously, if they dont believe, then the scripture might as well be fiction to them.

wouldnt it make more sense to debate using logic, but then again how to do use logic to debate something that you feel???

so i guess really, what is the point of these debates?

I agree. I do think though it is good for a little debate. So hopefully here is a little logic. It's not that I'm non-believing it's just that I see the "truth" about religion. Some of the things just can't be explained. If someone can explain to me one of my biggest questions then I might have to think a little differently about religion.

1.Especially in Catholicism, They tell people to live humbly and not have so many worldly goods yet the churches and Cathedrals they have are some of the most ornate buildings in the world. Doesn't that go against there teaching?

2.The other thing I see is that religion has been the cause of most of the wars. Why is that when pretty much every religion tells its believers that they should live in peace and treat each other like they want to be treated, yet if you don't agree with there beliefs because yours are different they get all bent out of shape telling you that your religion is wrong. Others, such as those radicals go out killing those who are "nonbelievers."

3.Another thing about religion is Who says your god is the right god? I thought god was all around us. If that is the case then does it mean that everyone other god is the wrong god? If someone wants to think that a tree is god what business is it of your religion to tell him he is wrong?

Hopefully a little logic to inject into this debate.

[scaught]

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
If this is honestly the person you are, then I would have to say, you may be a great catholic. But you are not, and have never been a Christian. A Christian is someone who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, AKA God. Anyone who is a genuine Christian, will progressively gain a desire to serve God, and be a better person for Him, they will not be satisfied with being luke warm.

I don't say this to insult you, but to simply alert you, that on the day you die, if you do not choose to accept forgiveness of your sins, and His rule over your will, then you will, sadly, go to hell.

more questions.
1. do you think commentary like this is going to help anyone? lead them to believing in a life as a born again christian?
2. are all christians "duty bound" to spread the word or something? were they led to that by someone else spouting off commentaries like the above? and more importantly, who are they to decide who is or isnt a good christian? commentaries like this are awfully common, and awfully judgemental. assuming i had this higher power that i ascribed to and whatnot, i would SURELY not take it as my place to speak for him and make judgements as to who is going to hell and who isnt.

i mean. why dont we see buddhists preaching on street corners?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Phanguye:
i just had a question here, for all the devotes here. Obviously you get into debates about this quite often. However, i dont understand why you feel the need to argue with scripture. Obviously, if they dont believe, then the scripture might as well be fiction to them.

wouldnt it make more sense to debate using logic, but then again how to do use logic to debate something that you feel???

so i guess really, what is the point of these debates?

agreed, I brought up this same point of logic in another thread, only I was arguing why a non-beliver would argue with scripture, since it might as well be fiction to the non-believer. Interesting you should bring up the exact same argument, but for the other side. weird.

[schep]

Originally posted by ASIMO:
Born-again atheist.

So how many belly-buttons do you have?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Phanguye:
i just had a question here, for all the devotes here. Obviously you get into debates about this quite often. However, i dont understand why you feel the need to argue with scripture. Obviously, if they dont believe, then the scripture might as well be fiction to them.

If you look, it's usually the non-believers that start such topics. They talk about the spiritual. You use what is best for the job.

wouldnt it make more sense to debate using logic, but then again how to do use logic to debate something that you feel???

Depends on what you mean by logic. Secular logic? Doesn't work. You can't use secular logic to explain the supernatural.

so i guess really, what is the point of these debates?

I don't know. I have never started a thread like this.

Ask the people who start them.

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I don't know. I have never started a thread like this.

Ask the people who start them. [/B]

now that i think about it you really havent... as much as i normally disagree with what you have to say, at least you arent propagating the problem, so thanks for that...

[willed]

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
I'm a Christian because it makes sense and I have found no flaws in it.

BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!

[version]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
You think there are flaws because you are looking at it through your secular non-believing glasses.
gs?"

This explains why some people just don't "get it"

It's not that they are incapable of it. Everyone is capable.

You have to open your heart before your mind can see the truth.

I did, and the path to nirvana was shown to me by the many teachers along the way. enlightenment through Buddhism.