[typoon]

Has anyone noticed that going from an iPod mini to a 15 gig it's 50 dollars price difference and you get 11 more gigs but going from a 15 to a 20 gig it's 100 dollars more? I think people are whining about the wrong thing here. It's not the price of the mini compared to the iPod it's the 100 dollar difference for 5 extra gigs. I just noticed this and was wondering why no one was whining about this but were whining about the cost of 11 gigs's less for 50 bucks when it costs 100 dollars more for an iPod that is 5gigs larger than the smaller of the iPods

[AKcrab]

You get:

Wired remote
Carrying case w/ belt clip
iPod Dock

jumping from 15 to 20 gig.

[Krusty]

Please note 3 additional accessories with the 20 gigger that would cost $117 more if bought separately.

In fact, if you want the accessories, its CHEAPER to buy the 20 gigger and get them included.

[typoon]

Originally posted by AKcrab:
You get:

Wired remote
Carrying case w/ belt clip
iPod Dock

jumping from 15 to 20 gig.

With the Mini you get
Earbud headphones, belt clip, AC adapter, FireWire cable, USB 2.0 cable
You just don't get the remote or the Dock. But if you have to buy the USB 2 cable it still comes out more for the iPod 15gig

[talisker]

Originally posted by typoon:
Has anyone noticed that going from an iPod mini to a 15 gig it's 50 dollars price difference and you get 11 more gigs but going from a 15 to a 20 gig it's 100 dollars more?

True, but it's about more than storage space. Going from an ipod mini to a 15GB does only cost $50 and give you 11GB more, but it also dramatically increases the size and weight. Whereas going from a 15GB to a 20GB doesn't carry a size or weight penalty.

[jonasmac]

I'd buy a mini if it was priced between $150-$200. The price is a major letdown!

[insha]

I'm getting four minis -- for my sibs and my dad. I think it's a fair price; since it was not introduced to compete against the other iPods; it was introduced to compete with the cheapo flash players.

I "good" flash player cost around 200 with one 256 MB of flash card. Now if you want the capacity any where near the iPod Mini, you would have buy a tons of Flash memory and that is not cheap, and you would have to swap memory cards.

So I fail to see how price is a let down.

[Cipher13]

The price makes it completely non-competitive with flash players, which hold their appeal through price, not size.

[dtriska]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
The price makes it completely non-competitive with flash players, which hold their appeal through price, not size.

I think you're confusing Apple with Wal-Mart.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
The price makes it completely non-competitive with flash players, which hold their appeal through price, not size.

*initial* price.

I think the argument that a player with only 128MB flash memory is useless is a pretty sound one. And once you factor in a larger memory card, those "cheapo" players have lost most of their appeal.

-s*

[kertong]

Give it 6 months and apple will probably drop the price on the minis. At least I'm hoping...

[:XI:]

I'll say we're whining about the wrong thing!
iTMS for The Rest of Us.

Bunch of ***ers.

Nice sig kertong

[Apple Pro Underwear]

i say shut up:

there is nothing to really whine about.

the ipod and ipod mini co-exist.

if one is a crappy value � buy the other.


as the product name implies: iPod mini � the main feature is size. smaller size comes at a premium.

some people will really enjoy the small size for it's functionality and not just for it's looks.

[Link]

I don't know where people think that the ipod dock, carrying case, and remote are REALLY worth that money >_>

dock: how much can you possibly use your ipod?! After a few hours your ears must hurt from having headphones on right? At home you can use your computer or stereo...

Unless you're always jogging like crazy or something and you need to charge/sync every 20 mins.

Case/belt clip: I guarantee the clip will break not long after purchase (it's happened to every single person I know)

remote: I always found that sucker hung from my headphones and caused them to fall out of my ears. It's nice but when I decide to switch tracks or change the volume I prefer to look at the screen because I probably have a more speicific request anyway.

Methinks the mini ipod was PURE marketing idea. It's the hottest new thing this year and small, by next christmas season it'll probably be neck and neck with competitors with prices while it DOES NOT NEED TO right now.

'nuff said.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
*initial* price.

I think the argument that a player with only 128MB flash memory is useless is a pretty sound one. And once you factor in a larger memory card, those "cheapo" players have lost most of their appeal.

-s*

*Initial* price. Of course. There is no other price, however, so the initial price is all that matters right now.

I agree that a 128MB player is pretty useless - but if you can afford a flash player, and not the mini iPod, then which are you going to get? Despite the obvious value of the mini iPod (even if it's a rip off compared to the big iPod).

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Link:
Methinks the mini ipod was PURE marketing idea. It's the hottest new thing this year and small, by next christmas season it'll probably be neck and neck with competitors with prices while it DOES NOT NEED TO right now.

BUT IT IS RIGHT NOW, TOO!

The only competitor is a 4GB Rio unit which retails for - $249! (at least, according to the /. thread.

There are plenty of $199 256MB flashcard players, and THAT is what the iPod mini is aimed at. And it solidly wipes the floor with them.

-s*

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by dtriska:
I think you're confusing Apple with Wal-Mart.

Marketshare is marketshare.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
*Initial* price. Of course. There is no other price, however, so the initial price is all that matters right now.

Not at all.

Because if the argument that Apple is making runs "yes, but if you're gonna actually *use* it, you're going to NEED an extra card", then it's not just initial cost, it is inevitable additional cost.

Which matters to the sales pitch.

-s*

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Not at all.

Because if the argument that Apple is making runs "yes, but if you're gonna actually *use* it, you're going to NEED an extra card", then it's not just initial cost, it is inevitable additional cost.

Which matters to the sales pitch.

-s*

I know a lot of people that get by with 128 meg flash players. They just change it over every day.

What you're saying relies on a majority of low-end buyers ALSO buying extra memory, which in reality just does not happen.

In my demographic, this player will fail.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
I know a lot of people that get by with 128 meg flash players. They just change it over every day.

Exactly. People who buy miniplayers aren't doing it for the capacity, and most don't even care about the small size. They're doing it for the price.

It makes me wonder when Apple will ever learn that in order to grow marketshare (or keep what they have, in those areas where they are dominant) they have to learn to price competitively. They lost the education market when they stopped offering meaningful discounts, precisely because their products were too expensive. They will lose the portable-audio market eventually for much the same reasons.

The hell of it is, they don't have to lose money to price competitively. People will buy a 5-GB, $99 player. They'd even buy a 1-GB, $99 player. Apple insists on selling only the highest-end tools; even the eMac is higher-end than most of the people buying the $499 Wintel PC's need or even want. If Apple would deign to sell lower-end machines as well as their current high-end, and price them accordingly, they would gain marketshare.

For almost 20 years now, the #1 complaint about Apple products has always been price. Still, Apple refuses to learn. Even a company with an R&D budget like Apple's can offer competitively-priced products, if they broaden their target market into the lower end. And yet that's the one thing Apple has always refused to do, be it under Jobs or anyone else. The whole point -as Apple saw it- behind the clones was that some other company could go after the low end, while Apple kept courting the elite. This failed, of course, but Apple never learned their lesson, it seems.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
I know a lot of people that get by with 128 meg flash players. They just change it over every day.

What you're saying relies on a majority of low-end buyers ALSO buying extra memory, which in reality just does not happen.

In my demographic, this player will fail.

See, I don't know anybody at all who still uses a flash memory based player. Not to piss you off, I am being serious.
But I am sitting in an office with four people right now, three of us will in all probability buy one of the new iPods at some time during 2004.

This player won't fail. It's tiny. It's hip. It will sell like hot cakes. Sorry Ciph, but you're just a grumpy old man today.
According to you 99.2% of all girls are not worth going out with, the miniPod will fail and I suspect that OS9 still rocks your world

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by Millennium:
It makes me wonder when Apple will ever learn that in order to grow marketshare

What, like virtually owning the portable music player market isn't good enough for you? They build that marketshare from nothing, in 24 months. People said that the original 5GB iPod would fail, that it was too expensive, that there was no need for it.
2 million sold units later....

You and Ciph, get a room

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
See, I don't know anybody at all who still uses a flash memory based player. Not to piss you off, I am being serious.
But I am sitting in an office with four people right now, three of us will in all probability buy one of the new iPods at some time during 2004.

This player won't fail. It's tiny. It's hip. It will sell like hot cakes. Sorry Ciph, but you're just a grumpy old man today.
According to you 99.2% of all girls are not worth going out with, the miniPod will fail and I suspect that OS9 still rocks your world

Well, that may well be the case there.

No, I'm not being grumpy. I'm just being realistic.

How on earth is this going to compete with products HALF its price? It won't. That's the short answer.

JUst because you're sitting in a room with three people willing to buy one of these, every day I sit in a classroom with several hundred peoplpe who are not willing to.

Perhaps it's just the difference in our demographics, and therefore peers; but I don't know many students who could afford to shell out for this thing.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
How on earth is this going to compete with products HALF its price? It won't. That's the short answer.

That's where I think you're wrong.
The iPod has never been cheap. It has never been competing on price. There have always been cheaper solutions. Yet still the iPod dominates the market.

It's success has been due to the design, the quality and the wow factor. The miniPod will succeed for the same reasons.

I am 100% certain of this.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
That's where I think you're wrong.
The iPod has never been cheap. It has never been competing on price. There have always been cheaper solutions. Yet still the iPod dominates the market.

It's success has been due to the design, the quality and the wow factor. The miniPod will succeed for the same reasons.

I am 100% certain of this.

They are aimed at different markets (the mini iPod and the standard iPod).

The iPod will destroy the mini iPod in the high end market; and in the low end market, the mini iPods price will destroy it.

I am 100% certain of this.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
How on earth is this going to compete with products HALF its price? It won't. That's the short answer.

No it won't. And you know why? Because it's not competing against the LOW-END flash players. It's competing against the HIGH-END flash players. The largest market-segment below the Hard-drive based (which Apple owns). LOW-END flash players is the SMALLEST of the markets. Apparently you didn't pay attention much in the keynote.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
They are aimed at different markets (the mini iPod and the standard iPod).

The iPod will destroy the mini iPod in the high end market; and in the low end market, the mini iPods price will destroy it.

I am 100% certain of this.

And while I am posting you go ahead and prove that you haven't got a clue. The iPod mini is aimed at the middle end market (high end flash players). There isn't JUST a low and high end market here.

*sigh*

[Mastrap]

They are aimed at different markets (the mini iPod and the standard iPod).

The iPod will destroy the mini iPod in the high end market; and in the low end market, the mini iPods price will destroy it.

I am 100% certain of this.

They are different products serving totally different markets.

The miniPod is a lifestyle accessory and a music player. I suspect that the capacity will stay below 10GB for a long time.

The iPod will very probably move up to a minimum capacity of 20GB in the very near future. Thus a very clear differentiator is created. If you research the usage patterns for the iPod you'll find that over 60% of people polled use the iPod for data transfer, backup and a convenient way to carry projects with them. (Please don't ask me to provide a link, I've read a research document on this but I can't remember where for the life of me. You'll just need to trust me)

[typoon]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Well, that may well be the case there.

No, I'm not being grumpy. I'm just being realistic.

How on earth is this going to compete with products HALF its price? It won't. That's the short answer.

JUst because you're sitting in a room with three people willing to buy one of these, every day I sit in a classroom with several hundred peoplpe who are not willing to.

Perhaps it's just the difference in our demographics, and therefore peers; but I don't know many students who could afford to shell out for this thing.

You want to know how? Because in other countries like in Asia for Example these things will sell like hot cakes. People even many of the adults like things that are small, cute and they are into the newest and hippist things. Also I think this will sell to many teenagers. I'm already set to get one for my mom who doesn't need the 15 gig, she likes the colors and the size.

[wulf]

Chicks will dig it.



And that's all I have to say about that.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
JUst because you're sitting in a room with three people willing to buy one of these, every day I sit in a classroom with several hundred peoplpe who are not willing to.

Perhaps it's just the difference in our demographics, and therefore peers; but I don't know many students who could afford to shell out for this thing.

Well, how many of those students you sit in a classroom with every day own a "normal" iPod? Very few?

Well, then, WHO THE HELL IS BUYING THESE THINGS!? NOBODY THAT CIPHER KNOWS!? OMG! IT MUST THE ALIENS! THEY'RE UPON US! THE END IS NIGH! THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING ETC.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
What, like virtually owning the portable music player market isn't good enough for you? They build that marketshare from nothing, in 24 months.

You're quite right that they built it from nothing, because they basically built the market. MP3 players existed before then, but were not common by any stretch of the imagination. Apple got a foothold only because of its crowd of zealots. They then managed to hook the people who thought It Looked Cool, essentially riding the fashion wave.

But fashions come and go. The iPod's marketshare is already slipping, but that's not something you'd ever hear about from Apple. Notice that they talk only about music download marketshare anymore, not player marketshare. Doesn't that seem strange to you?

This is not even the first time that we've seen this pattern. The original Macintosh actually predated the IBM PC for a couple of months, and held a majority marketshare for a short time. They lost it, of course, and when studies were done on the market, their biggest concern was -you guessed it- price.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Millennium:
But fashions come and go. The iPod's marketshare is already slipping, but that's not something you'd ever hear about from Apple. Notice that they talk only about music download marketshare anymore, not player marketshare. Doesn't that seem strange to you?

Were you asleep during the keynote? There was an ENTIRE segment dedicated to player segments. Apple owns the HD market and has close to one third of the ENTIRE MP3-player market (from the cheapest to the high end)! Did you not look at the iPod sale-curve? That pretty much was the definition of exponential right there.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Well, how many of those students you sit in a classroom with every day own a "normal" iPod? Very few?

Well, then, WHO THE HELL IS BUYING THESE THINGS!? NOBODY THAT CIPHER KNOWS!? OMG! IT MUST THE ALIENS! THEY'RE UPON US! THE END IS NIGH! THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING ETC.

Ahhhh, and here I thought you were capable of an intelligent conversation. How foolish of me.

Oh, and quite a few own a normal iPod; vastly fewer than those who own a cheap Flash player.

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
No it won't. And you know why? Because it's not competing against the LOW-END flash players. It's competing against the HIGH-END flash players. The largest market-segment below the Hard-drive based (which Apple owns). LOW-END flash players is the SMALLEST of the markets. Apparently you didn't pay attention much in the keynote.

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
And while I am posting you go ahead and prove that you haven't got a clue. The iPod mini is aimed at the middle end market (high end flash players). There isn't JUST a low and high end market here.

*sigh*

Sigh indeed. Can you not read?

I SAID it was aimed at a different market to the iPod.

The iPod will cannibalise it from above, while MUCH cheaper Flash players will cannibalise it from below. Just you watch.

I would love to eat my words on this, but I don't think I will.

[stevesnj]

If the price point on the mini is ok then why are so many not happy with it? It seems that most will not buy it because of price including me, even with my Educational discount. I may change my mind but not anytime soon. Apple needs to heed the warnings of the majority and lower the price which they may not do since the price is already posted on their site. It seems Apples accounting department won the pricing battle, not the consumer.

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally posted by Millennium:
But fashions come and go. The iPod's marketshare is already slipping, but that's not something you'd ever hear about from Apple. Notice that they talk only about music download marketshare anymore, not player marketshare. Doesn't that seem strange to you?

If nearly three quarters of a million units shipped last quarter is any indication of slipping, I'll eat my hat.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
It's success has been due to the design, the quality and the wow factor. The miniPod will succeed for the same reasons.

I am 100% certain of this.

you speaketh the truth!

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
I would love to eat my words on this, but I don't think I will.

You should bookmark this thread then. May I suggest a print-out with some salt?

[wataru]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
I am 100% certain of this.

Famous last words.

[Minty Fresh]

Yeah, yeah, yeah...blah, blah...all you nay sayers will be jealous and drooling when I post pics of my new iPod mini...next month when it comes in the mail!

[symonsl]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
The iPod will cannibalise it from above, while MUCH cheaper Flash players will cannibalise it from below.

I agree with the first part of this statement. I think the mini is a "loss leader" to get people to come into the store. Sort of like an ad for a $99 TV - you show up to the store and realize that for $150 you can get a Sony instead of the $99 "Electrotronic" brand.

You go to the Apple store looking for the cool mini and realize that the 15gig is only $50 more - so, what the heck, you get the 15gig...

[El_Chupacabra]

The mini is not competing with the "High end flash players".
Its main competition are other players just like the mini that use the same HD design. Like the Rio Riot and company.
The Riot (1.5GB) had a MSRP of $300 but you can get it for $190 just about anywhere.
And Rio announced a 4GB (19 Hrs of battery time!) version yesterday with a MSRP of $250, and you can bet that the street price is going to be under $200 in a couple of weeks. I wonder how much lower the 1.5GB is going to sell for?

[Agasthya]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
No it won't. And you know why? Because it's not competing against the LOW-END flash players. It's competing against the HIGH-END flash players. The largest market-segment below the Hard-drive based (which Apple owns). LOW-END flash players is the SMALLEST of the markets. Apparently you didn't pay attention much in the keynote.

Low-End flash, High-End flash, and iPod all have identical market shares. 31%.

The smallest piece of the pie is the other hard drive based players (7%).

There is definitely a market with low-end.

[Aiglos]

This is an expensive product, there is no denying that. Did anyone notice the huge silence that succeded Steve's announcement of the price. Talk about akward.

That was a very uneventful and boring keynote. I mean... why did he spend so much time on iLife...

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Agasthya:
Low-End flash, High-End flash, and iPod all have identical market shares. 31%.

The smallest piece of the pie is the other hard drive based players (7%).

There is definitely a market with low-end.

Yes, and it is definitely NOT Apple's market.

Because what Apple does in ANY market they enter, including mp3 players, CANNOT be done at the low end.

-s*

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Aiglos:
That was a very uneventful and boring keynote. I mean... why did he spend so much time on iLife...

Because GarageBand is the biggest thing in consumer software since iMovie.

It alone is going to sell literally TEN-THOUSANDS of iBooks.

Trust me on this.

-s*

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by Millennium:
This is not even the first time that we've seen this pattern. The original Macintosh actually predated the IBM PC for a couple of months, and held a majority marketshare for a short time. They lost it, of course, and when studies were done on the market, their biggest concern was -you guessed it- price.

Bought an IBM PC lately?

If Apple gave them away for free they'd have 100% marketshare.

Marketshare isn't everything. Profitability matters quite a bit more. Pricing didn't protect Micron, Gateway and every single other PC manufacturer from going out of business.

Comparied to the other 1.5GB and new 4GB HD players the mini is priced pretty damn well.

I don't expect to see Apple enter the flash player market because I suspect the margins are shyt. Just like the PC business. The New Post-Amelio Apple doesn't waste time, money and effort on things that don't have healthy margins. That's a good thing.

How many flash player brands have already come and gone? How many big brands are still in the game? How many of them are making money? How many of those making money are subsidizing their flash player margins with their high-end player sales?

Yes, Virginia there is a low end flash player market, but I think ths smart people at Apple crunched the numbers and quickly realized it was a game not worth playing.

In fact, I think Jobs said as much in the keynote presentation.

P.S. Apple doesn't need to sell Apple brand flash players, rather they simply need to encourage flash player manufactuerers to support AAC and then Apple reaps the benefits of supporting their iTunes market which is much more valuable in the long run than selling a few flash players for $.00001 profit a peice.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by symonsl:

realize that the 15gig is only $50 more - so, what the heck, you get the 15gig...

I doubt it. The miniPod is just a whole lot sexier looking than the iPod. That alone will make sales.

It's smaller than my mobile phone for pete's sake. I so want one.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
I doubt it. The miniPod is just a whole lot sexier looking than the iPod. That alone will make sales.

It's smaller than my mobile phone for pete's sake. I so want one.

It's just personal taste, but I don't think there's any way the iPod mini is sexier than the iPod.

The iPod is so classy... you can't beat that.

Originally posted by wataru:
Famous last words.

Tongue-in-cheek. Referring to Mastraps post.

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
You should bookmark this thread then. May I suggest a print-out with some salt?

Why don't you print it out, keep an eye on it, and even salt it for me. If it comes down to it, I'll even pay shipping.

[dtriska]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Marketshare is marketshare.

A company can gain marketshare through means other than a lower price, like, perhaps, producing a better product.