[cheerios]

Originally posted by deomacius:

As for the comments comparing homosexuality with the plight of blacks...I find it extremely insulting. There is no way that any rational person can say that homosexuals have suffered like blacks have suffered. The lynchings, burnings, slavery, gang violence and poverty? There is NO comparison.

deomacius.

Google Billy Jack Gaither or Matthew Sheppard or to start off... then talk about lynchings.

here's s'more info, before you talk about how there's no suffering.

edit: one more for ya: http://pflag.org/education/hatecrimes.html

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by cheerios:
Google Billy Jack Gaither or Matthew Sheppard or to start off... then talk about lynchings.

here's s'more info, before you talk about how there's no suffering.

That is a wake-up call if I ever saw one.
I may not like the way they live, and the whole idea, but no way would I support violence against anyone for being gay or black. That's just fcuking sad.

Let them get married!

[ambush]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Hey I am all for homosexuals getting the same rights as married couples.

They just need to find a new name. [/B]

This sums it up:
If gays can't marry, they technically don't have the same rights as man/woman couples.

Conclusion:
Gay people don't have the same right as straight people.

My Conclusion:
WTF?

How can I CARE if they're getting their ass rammed, in THEIR house, in THEIR bed?
I don't give a DAMN. Let them BE. ****. We let you be with your stupid religion stuff, so let them BE. GET OVER IT. SOCIETY IS CHANGING.

WHAT THE **** WILL YOU LOSE IF THEY PERMIT GAY MARRIAGE? WILL IT CHANGE SOMETHING TO YOUR MISERABLE LIFE? ARE THEY TAKING SOMETHING AWAY FROM YOU? ARE THEY STEALING SOMETHING FROM YOU?

NO!

I'M SICK AND TIRED OF THIS ANTI-GAY ********, ZIMPH.
AND I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE.

[TheMosco]

Originally posted by dcolton:
It's never valid to use the race card when referring to gays. Don't care whether it is choice, genetics, or perversion. I resent gays exploiting blacks and TRUE discrimination. Gays are simply trying to label anyone who disagrees with their agenda by using blacks as their trump card. I am sorry, but I don't want my history dumbed down by a bunch of guys chanting "were here, were queer..." BAH BAH BAH

It is a cheap fear tactic.

You should hear the speech by Byron Rushing, a Black Episcopal minister in the Massachusetts House of Representatives. The speech was amazing. We had a vote today in my high school philosophy class on whether we would vote for an amendment banning gay marriage(because we are in MA, and they had voting today), and only 4 kids voted for it, and one of them actually changed his vote after hearing the speech. He talked about MA being the first state in the union to have no slaves in 1790, and MA constitution guaranteeing liberty to all, and played the race card pretty well. The speech was amazing. I wish i could find a transcript, and maybe you would realize that maybe there are some correlation and that you just don't want to see them.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by brink:
That would suit me just fine. No offense to married people, but to quote Homer, "I'm not getting my fingerprints on that train wreck."

Too bad others can't leave it be.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by ambush:
This sums it up:
If gays can't marry, they technically don't have the same rights as man/woman couples.

It would be the SAME exact thing as marriage. But called something else.

Look.

Homosexual relationships = Homosexual relationships.
Heterosexual relationships = Heterosexual relationships.

Heterosexual unions = marriage
Homosexual unions = ?

Someone needs to fill the missing link.

I'M SICK AND TIRED OF THIS ANTI-GAY ********, ZIMPH.
AND I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE.

I am not against gays ambush. Hiss and honk all you want. I care for them just the same as anyone else.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Heterosexual unions = marriage
Homosexual unions = ?

Two people who love each other and have made a life-long commitment to each other = ?

[ghost_flash]

Next, they'll want the right to vote.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
Two people who love each other and have made a life-long commitment to each other = ?

Sure thing. Like I said I have no problem with letting gays has civil unions and share the same benefits.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Next, they'll want the right to vote.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Sure thing. Like I said I have no problem with letting gays has civil unions and share the same benefits.

Right, I respect your view on the matter. I wish more people shared it.

However, the fact that the government will marry heterosexual couples but won't marry homosexual couples is discriminatory. As you said earlier in this thread, the government should not be in the marriage business at all. But it is. Unless the government is going to stop handing out marriages, and start giving civil unions to strait couples and gay couples alike, giving gays civil unions is still discriminatory. Having the two as separate institutions, by law, makes them unequal.

[Vader�s Pinch of Death]

[TheMosco]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
It would be the SAME exact thing as marriage. But called something else.

Look.

Homosexual relationships = Homosexual relationships.
Heterosexual relationships = Heterosexual relationships.

Heterosexual unions = marriage
Homosexual unions = ?

Someone needs to fill the missing link.[/B]

How about we leave marriage to the church and call everything civil unions, because thats what they are in fact, civilly recognized unions . Then its fair. But the religious right would have a fit if that was attempted.

can anyone find me the word origin of the "marry"?

[edit]

oops, didn't see nonhuman's post. Said exactly what i wanted to say, but better.

[deomacius]

Google Billy Jack Gaither or Matthew Sheppard or to start off... then talk about lynchings.

here's s'more info, before you talk about how there's no suffering.

edit: one more for ya: http://pflag.org/education/hatecrimes.html

Wow...a whole 2. I'm pretty sure no matter how hard you search you won't find the same number of persecuted homosexuals as there have been black people. I'm not by any means saying that hurting people is right. I'm just saying that people need to own up to the fact that they partake in an activity by choice.

deomacius.

[mrtew]

I wonder if they are going to get that pesky 'Equal treatment under Law' thing out of the constitution before people start taking it seriously after all these years. We should have a vote. Let the Majority decide if the minority can have any rights. That's a great basis for the land of the free in a new century. Too bad we can't just send them all back where they came from. Geez people... can't you hear yourselves?

[kmkkid]

Bigots Bigots and more Bigots.


This forum is turning into a sh!thole.




Chris

[d4nth3m4n]

Originally posted by mrtew:
I wonder if they are going to get that pesky 'Equal treatment under Law' thing out of the constitution before people start taking it seriously after all these years. We should have a vote. Let the Majority decide if the minority can have any rights. That's a great basis for the land of the free in a new century. Too bad we can't just send them all back where they came from. Geez people... can't you hear yourselves?

thank you.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by TheMosco:
How about we leave marriage to the church and call everything civil unions, because thats what they are in fact, civilly recognized unions . Then its fair. But the religious right would have a fit if that was attempted.
\

I'd be all for it.

[cheerios]

Originally posted by deomacius:
Wow...a whole 2. I'm pretty sure no matter how hard you search you won't find the same number of persecuted homosexuals as there have been black people. I'm not by any means saying that hurting people is right. I'm just saying that people need to own up to the fact that they partake in an activity by choice.

deomacius.

there's more than 2, that's just off the top of my head. Apologies for not doing your research for you.

2 is 2 too many. Don't belittle it. Are they any less dead?

[Johnnyboysmac]

Forgive me for butting in, and for not being a US citizen, i.e. I can't really comment on American popular culture, BUT as one who observes from the outside:

I singularly seem to be unable to understand the social attitudes, as presented by some here, and who appear to be mainly of US lineage, as regards attitudes towards gay folks re the obsession with limiting the civil, legal and social rights of them in some form or other, whist overlooking the fact however, that they pay taxes like everyone else, and many of whom no doubt go to war to defend your country as well.

The history of your country seems plagued with Hollywood style proclomations of freedom and equality for all etc, whilst behind the scenes, it appears to be do as we say or else, with the Christian religious right showing an Islamic fundamentalist type zeal for imposing it's viewpoint upon others, come hell or high water.

How, may I ask, do you justify the actions of YOUR country as regards slavery? Please explain it to me.

Further, please explain why you expect certain citiizens of your country to be denied equality of civil, legal and social rights in some form or other, in a not to dissimilar manner as slaves were in the past, whilst being happy to demand that they pay taxes, and go to war to defend your country and a system that seems quite happy to deny them the very principles that they are fighting for. Please explain it to me for I am at a loss to understand.

Yes, I'm being mildy sarcastic, but I'm also asking a genuine question. Explain it to me please. How you can be so hypocritical in what you preach, re democracy, the constitution etc, freedom and equality for all, and the reality as regards the actual way that you treat other citizens in your own society. Or espouse views such as some I'm reading here on this forum.

Do you have ANY idea how the rest of the world sees you, or are you caught up in your own self importance that you cannot see the wood for the trees so to speak.

It saddens me a great deal, as the US and it's general culture is a country that has always interested me, but if the attitudes as presented by some here are in any way indicative or representative of mainstream US popular cultural viewpoints, then common decency and humanity seems to be taking something of a backward step, most certainly for gay folks at the very least.

The saddest part of all, is, that whilst you preach all this freedom and equality for all, and beat your brows in exasperation as to why so much of the 3rd world, especially when driven by the opiate of religious fundamentalism turns in hatred and violence towards the US, so many of you in reality, appear to share the same fundamentalist, bigoted, and hateful views. Different religion perhaps, but the outcome seems much the same.

IMHO some of you really need to step back and take a good hard look at yourselves and your attitudes sometimes. From where I'm standing, I see the same attitudes that put African-Americans into chains and bondage, and denied them any semblance of human decency and civil rights for many, many years.

And some of you have the temerity to point the finger at Islamic fundamentalists as being evil.

Some of you need to take a good long hard look at the log in your own eye, before you start worrying about the stick in your brothers.

Dumbfounded, somewhat angrily, and patiently yours, waiting an explanation from anyone who would care to offer it, as to justify slavery, the history of it in your culture, and why gay folks as a minority SHOULD be denied equal rights, whilst being expected to play a contributing part to the support of the overall culture re taxes and going to war etc as I have outlined.

Regards

John...

[cheerios]

Can't answer most of your questions, John. Wish I could. but, I can point out that we really have NO idea how the rest of hte world see's us. I'm not sure how to rectify that... I agree with what you're saying, but be prepared for some rude, harsh answers, because people all weir their own personal blinders, making what they want seem right. Me, as well as everyone else.

[Peder Rice]

[edit]

Eh, I didn't really feel like saying that.

Anyway, to summarize, the anti-Communism effort of the 50s changed "civil union" to "marriage" in the states.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by deomacius:
Wow...a whole 2. I'm pretty sure no matter how hard you search you won't find the same number of persecuted homosexuals as there have been black people. I'm not by any means saying that hurting people is right. I'm just saying that people need to own up to the fact that they partake in an activity by choice.

deomacius.

"Precise figures on the number of homosexuals exterminated in Nazi Death camps have never been established. Estimates range from 10,000 to 15,000."
http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/homobg.html

[Vpro7]

Originally posted by Johnnyboysmac:

The history of your country seems plagued with Hollywood style proclomations of freedom and equality for all etc, whilst behind the scenes, it appears to be do as we say or else, with the Christian religious right showing an Islamic fundamentalist type zeal for imposing it's viewpoint upon others, come hell or high water.

Me too. I wonder how they go about 'democratising' the world, freedomfor all, and yet they have some of the most fcuked up attituteds around. Seems like they can't just impose their will on their own people, but just have to spread the gospel 'round the globe. Hypocrisy at the worst.

P.s, Just look at today's news on the released Guatanamo prisoners. They were psychologically, asnd physically tortured. So much for spouting off human rights and an example to the world.

[Xeo]

OK, a lot of people have said what I'm going to respond to, so I'll just make this general. My viewpoint stems from the fact that I believe homosexuality to be genetic. If you don't, you won't agree with me, so just skip this post.

re: gays aren't the same as blacks! they didn't suffer nearly as much!
I respond in three ways:

(1) No **** sherlock. Homosexuality is NOT an outside characteristic! Being black is. Plain and simple. I guarantee you that if being black was something that could have been hidden from the world, many blacks would have taken the opportunity to free themselves from slavery.

(2) Your argument is that only those who have suffered for a really long time should get equal rights. Yeah, that's real promising... "Hey, maybe if you guys move to some undeveloped country and become slaves for a while, that'll prove you're really serious about this!"

(3) The comparison to blacks wasn't general. The "race card" in this instance wasn't general. It was simply looking at the facts that our (American) history has, in the past, denied marriage rights to people based on skin color. First it was that blacks themselves couldn't marry. Then it was that races couldn't marry other races. How is this not a similar argument to that?

re: civil unions are OK, marriage is not
I'd only be for that if heteros were taken away the right to marry. So long as everyone uses the same term, whatever it is, I'm OK with that. However, taking away the right to "marriage" (the word) will not be easy. In fact, it probably wouldn't ever happen. "Yes, there's going to be a vote. We're going to take your marriage away and replace it with a civil union. That cool?" Having two separate words for the same thing, just because one union is between heteros and the other is between homos, is not equality. That's separation...

[forkies]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
"Precise figures on the number of homosexuals exterminated in Nazi Death camps have never been established. Estimates range from 10,000 to 15,000."
http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/homobg.html

site with similar info:
http://www.pink-triangle.org/

marking chart:
http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/29013.htm

[GRAFF]

Originally posted by dcolton:
Anal Sex and skin color are two different things. And I, for one, take offense to the comparison.

This kind of comment sadly shows how gays are still viewed by heteros - not as people with real lives and concerns, but only as a sexual act. (Strangely enough, this particular sexual act is just as common among straight folk and gay folk. So I guess we all have something in common after all!)

Another stupid argument seen too often here is the one about being gay by choice. Does this infer that being straight is a choice as well? Society "teaches" you that straight is the only way to be. Why would anyone want to make their life hell by "choosing" otherwise?

Also, the vile comparisons made in this forum linking paedophiles and homosexuals only shows how much of a battle still remains to be fought.

Then there is the argument of names. Marriage vs. Civil Union. In fact, the distinction already exists. A church performs a wedding, and that paper you sign giving you all the legal rights is your civil union. If the same rights are granted, who cares what it is called? "What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

[MindFad]

Originally posted by GRAFF:
This kind of comment sadly shows how gays are still viewed by heteros...

You may have missed the point of his comment. Or I did.

[Zimphire]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/11/ga...nia/index.html

[MindFad]

Ah, it's a bigoted, ignorant, and exclusionary world we live in.

[GRAFF]

Originally posted by MindFad:
You may have missed the point of his comment. Or I did.

No, it's a case of being possesive about suffering. With that kind of logic, rights should be distributed based on a fixed scale of past hubris commited against "x".

The opposite of left is right.
The opposite of right is wrong.
So anyone who's left is wrong, right?
[Sondheim]

[d4nth3m4n]

Originally posted by GRAFF:
Then there is the argument of names. Marriage vs. Civil Union. In fact, the distinction already exists. A church performs a wedding, and that paper you sign giving you all the legal rights is your civil union. If the same rights are granted, who cares what it is called? "What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

to be honest, it is not my agenda to give gays state recognized marriages, i just want to see this on a basic equality level. i want to see the "spousal" benefit packages available to workers made available to their partners; whether they are the same or the opposite sex.

marriage is up to you guys, and i think there will be a battle on that front, but sharing in the benefits and trimmings of marriage, that is essential. or did i just define what a marriage is legally anyway?

so to wrap it up, it is not my top priority to have gtay marriages at the moment (i fear there are still too many conservative grouches with too much power). what i would like to see is equality regarding all the marital benefits become a common occurrence. [/groggy rant]

[Vpro7]

Look, so what if gays haven;'t had the exact same typoe of persecution that Blacks had. So what? Are we now saying that the criterion for judging persecution, and abuse is based purely on the shocking treatment of blacks in the US up to the 60's? get real. We have seen many gays being abused, being treated as less than normal, and their equality in many a thing being taken away, and gays being killed. If people stand back and say, 'well, ain't no sh!t off my back, damn fags deserved it for not being heterosxual Chrsitians', screw that ****. Homesexuality is not some new fad, it's as inrgained in humanity as being straight, so they deserve to have the smae rights for marriage as straights do.

[d4nth3m4n]

i still dont understand how this thread got on this whole racism kick. i guess it was zimph jumping the gun on the tom tomorrow strip that was linked to.

this is not about racism, nor does it need to be. this is about equality and acceptance, and that alone should be enough to inspire some compassion in you cold hearted bastards.

[gadster]

It's just wedge politics. Get over it.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by MindFad:
Ah, it's a bigoted, ignorant, and exclusionary world we live in.

Bigoted? sure.

Everyone has their own views and everyone else's is wrong.

Ignorance is highly subjective.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by MindFad:
Ah, it's a bigoted, ignorant, and exclusionary world we live in.

Yes, this stands on its own legs. Forever.

[Zimphire]

If you repeat it enough. I am sure it will come true.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
It would be the SAME exact thing as marriage. But called something else.

If it's the same, why does it need to be called something else? Then isn't it not quite the same?

I personally would be all for banishing the word "marriage" to religion and call marriage in a registry office a "civil union", no matter the sexes of teh parties involved. That way there's a common term for the LEGAL union of two people, ensuring they have equal rights.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by deomacius:
I'm just saying that people need to own up to the fact that they partake in an activity by choice.

Yes, I'm sure all gay people are really just masochists and they want to get beaten up for the deliberate choice to be that way. It's not that society isn't tolerant of them, it's that they like pain and suffering. Of course! Now it all makes sense.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
If you repeat it enough. I am sure it will come true.

And if you belittle it with sarcastic comments, I'm sure it'll become false.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
If you repeat it enough. I am sure it will come true.

Hey, you keep on trying.

[deomacius]

Yes, I'm sure all gay people are really just masochists and they want to get beaten up for the deliberate choice to be that way. It's not that society isn't tolerant of them, it's that they like pain and suffering. Of course! Now it all makes sense.

Perhaps you should read the Scarlette Letter again. I'm sure all the Hester Prinn's of the world will argue against the point your trying to make. If a person finds an act pleasureable, regardless of public acceptance, they will continue to do it. Smoking, drug use, speeding, cheating (on tests), cheating (on spouses), porn. Need I go on. All of these things have a stigma that go with them but people still do them.

The tone of your response seemed somewhat hostile. You don't need to be snide with me. If you want to have a grown up discussion like civil adults I'll gladly oblige you. That goes for the rest of you as well.

deomacius.

[brink]

"We have watched in our own lifetime, you and I, each of the walls of prejudice assaulted and brought low. We have watched the prejudice against women addressed and transformed; the same against Jews, and the same against racial minorities. Logic suggests that this last prejudice will meet that same fate. It will meet it with the same combination, in my opinion, of consistent moral rigor, social outrage, political seriousness, and an appeal ultimately to moral and social conscience. It will happen, we have seen it happen before, and I believe that we are seeing it happen now."

Rev. Peter Gomes on homophobia

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
If it's the same, why does it need to be called something else? Then isn't it not quite the same?

Well it's not the same. No more than a homosexual relationship is the same as a heterosexual one. If they weren't different, we'd not have different words to describe them.

I personally would be all for banishing the word "marriage" to religion and call marriage in a registry office a "civil union", no matter the sexes of teh parties involved. That way there's a common term for the LEGAL union of two people, ensuring they have equal rights.

Sounds good to me. But that wont happen.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by brink:
"We have watched in our own lifetime, you and I, each of the walls of prejudice assaulted and brought low. We have watched the prejudice against women addressed and transformed; the same against Jews, and the same against racial minorities. Logic suggests that this last prejudice will meet that same fate. It will meet it with the same combination, in my opinion, of consistent moral rigor, social outrage, political seriousness, and an appeal ultimately to moral and social conscience. It will happen, we have seen it happen before, and I believe that we are seeing it happen now."

Rev. Peter Gomes on homophobia

He doesn't know what homophobia is.

[brink]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
He doesn't know what homophobia is.

And you do? Please enlighten us.

[hyteckit]

Cool, let's have different names for all the types of marriages.

1. Same-Race marriages
2. Interracial marriages
3. Re-married marriages
4. Hetero marriages
5. Same-sex marriages
6. Senior marriages
7. Interfaith marriages
8. Same-religion marriages


Any more you guys can think of?

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Well it's not the same. No more than a homosexual relationship is the same as a heterosexual one. If they weren't different, we'd not have different words to describe them. [/B]

I don't know about you, but if I were to say a gay friend of mine was in a relationship, I would just say that "my friend is in a relationship", I wouldn't specify "my gay friend is in a homosexual relationship". It makes no difference to me whatsoever.

[stevesnj]

As you see Georgie Boy has an Eagle eye on the rights of Americans...even Gay Americans. This guy WILL NOT CHANGE OUR CONSTITUTION!!! What a JOKE!!!

LET THEM MARRY DAMNIT!!!!



Bringing morality back to the White House