[rtdunham]

I've read speculation apple might re-introduce a cube or cube-like 'puter, perhaps as a 20th anniversary model.

regardless, this article gives insights into a reported new trend in downsizing "desktop" computers and should be interesting reading for the folks here.

btw, i googled shuttle but couildn't find a site with much info.

terry

http://money.excite.com/ht/nw/bus/20...n06503337.html

[Judge_Fire]

Well, I have a Cube for 'productivity' and a Shuttle (SN85G4) for gaming and am anxiously waiting for Apple to come up with something to replace the aging 450 MHz thing. The G5 towers are simply too big, while the Powerbooks and iMacs are too limited in their display options

Shuttle info can be found at http://www.shuttle.com/hq/

They're great machines, except for the slight problem of an OS. Viewed from the front, the Shuttle looks smaller than the Cube, but it's a bit deeper as it needs to accommodate a full-size AGP card (Radeon 9800 Pro, whoohoo).

Hexus.net has a nice forum on Small Form Factor machines.

J

[edit: added hexus.net and some other stuff]

[Vader�s Pinch of Death]

Originally posted by Judge_Fire:
Well, I have a Cube for 'productivity' and a Shuttle (SN85G4) for gaming and am anxiously waiting for Apple to come up with something to replace the aging 450 MHz thing. The G5 towers are simply too big, while the Powerbooks and iMacs are too limited in their display options

What in the world does a 20' iMac not have that a cube could?

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by Vader�s Pinch of Death:
What in the world does a 20' iMac not have that a cube could?

A non-built in screen. Sometimes I *like* being able to plug my own screen in.

[Lateralus]

Originally posted by Vader�s Pinch of Death:
What in the world does a 20' iMac not have that a cube could?

Expandability. And no, the HDD and the RAM do not count.

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by Vader�s Pinch of Death:
What in the world does a 20' iMac not have that a cube could?

I have a 17" iMac as my work machine. Where do I insert the new Radeon card?
And yeah, I already have a nice LCD display at home, don't need another one (which can't even be removed).


My criteria for purchasing a Mac/PC are:

� Fast processor(s)
� Small Form Factor
� Expandable AGP 8x (or PCI-Express)
� Lotsa ports for firewire expansion, 5.1 sound, USB etc.


I'd be happy with a G5 tower, where space was squeezed out by:

� Less internal expansion (see Shuttle)
� Power as an external brick (as in Cube)
� Apple's great expertise in compacting (as in iPod mini, Cube, PBs etc.)


Case size should be an option for G5 towers- Small, Medium, Large (L being even bigger to accommodate more drives for video etc.)

J

[slider]

The cube was great, I was considering it back in the day, but Apple cancelled it before my purchase date. I had decided not to get it anyways. Bang for our buck. "It's the price stupid". It should come in @ like 13 or 14 K. There have been some nice concepts of a G5 cube on the forum. Apple over prices and I am sure if they did do a cube, maybe a 20th anniversary Mac edition, it would be overpriced again. Finding myself about to ramble if it's not too late already.

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by PowerMacMan:
Expandability. And no, the HDD and the RAM do not count.

And the Cube has that? I love my cube, but when I purchased it, I went into it knowing that it has no expandability, save for the video card and even then there's really a limited choice. Don't get me wrong if Apple reintroduced the cube, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Mike

[The Placid Casual]

I doubt we will ever see a cube selling new from Apple again.

People who say they *would* buy are not always so bold when the product hits the streets, faults and all. I had 2, loved them, but would in no way buy another if they were reannounced.

I think it should stay dead unless they could release it for $500-600 and make it a bit more future proof. Obviously not going to happen.

The Cube is dead. The cube was one of the products that lost Aple the most money. Face it, it ain't coming back.

[capuchin]

Originally posted by Maflynn:
And the Cube has that? I love my cube, but when I purchased it, I went into it knowing that it has no expandability, save for the video card and even then there's really a limited choice. Don't get me wrong if Apple reintroduced the cube, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Mike

You can always throw in a new processor. Mine's humming along nicely at 1.2Ghz, and with a Geforce 3 it tears Halo and UT2004 a new orifice...

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
The Cube is dead. The cube was one of the products that lost Aple the most money. Face it, it ain't coming back.

So even if PC makers are making money with popular SFF PC's, Apple is cursed and should never venture into that area again? Or is your distinction of a 'Cube' significantly different from a 'SFF Mac'?

J

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by Judge_Fire:
So even if PC makers are making money with popular SFF PC's, Apple is cursed and should never venture into that area again? Or is your distinction of a 'Cube' significantly different from a 'SFF Mac'?

J

Because of the very nature of a SFF machine and the way Apple work, it would be financial suicide to design one again in the near future.

OK, so we have Mini ATA and other stuff on the PC side. Fine, but vastly different economies of scale and design apply.

There could be 3 different manufacturers that can design around an already established 'standard', but can they still use the same CPUs, heatsink, Gfx cards, Powersupplies etc. Because of this, obviously the final items can sell for very cheap amounts and recoup the R&D quickly.

They also sell by the shed load.

The cube had to be custom designed with one off motherboard, CPU and cooler, Gfx card riser, Gfx card, chassis, etc etc Literally everything was bespoke right down to the external power supply...

Stacks of money in R&D that had to be clawed back, so the price had to be high. They must have sold a minimal amount in all when compared to other Macs let alone the PC side.

This situation has not changed. It does not matter what is on the PC side, they have to play by different rules.

In fact, I can see the task for Apple having got even harder since the G4 Cube with the added heat and northbridge cooling needed for the G5, as well as keeping vastly improved Gfx cards, hard drives, FSBs etc etc cool to the point that they could be used for extended periods without having 10 fans in there.

Apple would be very foolish indeed to launch a machine with the same or similar form factor to that of the cube again.

Most people want to change graphics cards, add extra hard drives, PCI cards. the people who are willing to take no upgrade options from the start are in the vast majority and it makes no sense to waste the R&D in designing a machine from the ground up exclusively for them.

[driven]

Originally posted by Vader�s Pinch of Death:
What in the world does a 20' iMac not have that a cube could?

The ability to continue to use that 20" screen when the rest of the machine is obsolete.

[driven]

Originally posted by Maflynn:
And the Cube has that? I love my cube, but when I purchased it, I went into it knowing that it has no expandability, save for the video card and even then there's really a limited choice. Don't get me wrong if Apple reintroduced the cube, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Mike

Well ... you CAN upgrade thh processor to 1.4 Ghz

[freakboy2]

i'd love to get a g5, but i live in a small apt and don't want a huge computer (or another one anyway). the cube is perfect. I can use whatever monitor i want READ: I have a nice LCD, why would i want to throw it out with my imac?!

seriously, if you have a 23 inch apple display, you'll never buy an imac, and if you don't live in the burbs and have a humungous office, then small is good.

cubes are pretty upgradeable.. mine has a 1.25 g4, 1.25 gigs of ram, etc.

if they'd made it .5 inches bigger it would fit full sized AGP and then it'd be like a mini mini minitower.

small is good.. steve bring back the cube!! WE WANTS ONE!

also pcs will be getting smaller in the next 5 years. do you want to be on the cutting edge or in the john with your pants around your ankles.

fb

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by driven:
Well ... you CAN upgrade thh processor to 1.4 Ghz

I understand that you can replace the CPU but all in all the cube's design is not one of expansion, much like the current iMac. Because of the formfactor, the cube has a couple of options the iMac doesn't but all in all its not really that expandable.

Mike

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by Maflynn:
I understand that you can replace the CPU but all in all the cube's design is not one of expansion, much like the current iMac. Because of the formfactor, the cube has a couple of options the iMac doesn't but all in all its not really that expandable.

Mike

Exactly

The processor was not meant to be upgraded hence the totally rubbish cooling options, and the need for fans in the bottom of the cubes etc

Also, it is totally undesirable to have the optical drives and hard drive on a vertical mounting... they don't work correctly hence the reduced speed on the internal optical drives.

There things do not happen in SFF PCs. the whole cube design was an exercise in compromise to maintain silence and the small form.

Nothing is ideal, especially now things have moved on.

With the iMac, things are somewhat better, but still no expansion, still no real options, although it can have decent optical drives.

I think the whole AIO and SFF should be abandoned for more tower/expansion based options.

[driven]

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
Exactly

The processor was not meant to be upgraded hence the totally rubbish cooling options, and the need for fans in the bottom of the cubes etc

Also, it is totally undesirable to have the optical drives and hard drive on a vertical mounting... they don't work correctly hence the reduced speed on the internal optical drives.

There things do not happen in SFF PCs. the whole cube design was an exercise in compromise to maintain silence and the small form.

Nothing is ideal, especially now things have moved on.

With the iMac, things are somewhat better, but still no expansion, still no real options, although it can have decent optical drives.

I think the whole AIO and SFF should be abandoned for more tower/expansion based options.

Actually the cube WAS designed to allow for faster processors (Apple had a longer life planned than actually happened.) It already has internal mount points for a fan and power leads to run that fan.
(I'm not sure what you mean about "totally rubbish internal cooling options"). <-- It either cools or it doesn't.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by driven:
Actually the cube WAS designed to allow for faster processors (Apple had a longer life planned than actually happened.) It already has internal mount points for a fan and power leads to run that fan.
(I'm not sure what you mean about "totally rubbish internal cooling options"). <-- It either cools or it doesn't.

One of the main selling points was that the cube was silent!

Yes, they put in mounting points for a fan and a power link on the motherboard, but it would have meant that a main selling feature was eradicated.

As for 'rubbish cooling options' etc. I suspect that if you put the same processor in a Powermac with a heatsink 1/2 the size of the case, a 120mm case fan, decent airflow and vents, the chip would run a *lot* cooler than it would in a cube with passive cooling and much less air flow.

Running a chip cooler obviously preserves it's life, and makes it more efficient. IMHO, the cooling in a cube, is the minimum it can be to to ensure things are kept silent.

For example, I run an Athlon 2600+, with stock cooling in a SFF case it runs at between 25-43C at full load. With a decent case (Chieftec Dragon), decent airflow, a better cooler (Swiftech 462V V-Fin), and a few more fans, it runs 16-24C.

Which would you prefer...? Really want very much more heat, eg a G5, in a cube?

[driven]

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
One of the main selling points was that the cube was silent!

Yes, they put in mounting points for a fan and a power link on the motherboard, but it would have meant that a main selling feature was eradicated.

As for 'rubbish cooling options' etc. I suspect that if you put the same processor in a Powermac with a heatsink 1/2 the size of the case, a 120mm case fan, decent airflow and vents, the chip would run a *lot* cooler than it would in a cube with passive cooling and much less air flow.

Running a chip cooler obviously preserves it's life, and makes it more efficient. IMHO, the cooling in a cube, is the minimum it can be to to ensure things are kept silent.

For example, I run an Athlon 2600+, with stock cooling in a SFF case it runs at between 25-43C at full load. With a decent case (Chieftec Dragon), decent airflow, a better cooler (Swiftech 462V V-Fin), and a few more fans, it runs 16-24C.

Which would you prefer...? Really want very much more heat, eg a G5, in a cube?

I do see your point.

However I suspect that as long as the thing runs and does not crash that "adequate cooling" is enough. Do you think most folks are as informed as you that their processor in an SFF case runs 9 degrees warmer than someone elses? If it doesn't crash do they care? (I'm not talking your techie/geek/gamer/overclocking crowd).

[dfiler]

Small computers? Sign me up.
Most importantly, why are computers their current shape? Is a deep tower really the optimal 'standard' shape in the coming era of LCD screens?

Here's a thread with my thoughts on Half-Depth&trade; Computers...
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=23359

Pssst. Ever see one of these?

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by dfiler:
Small computers? Sign me up.
Most importantly, why are computers their current shape? Is a deep tower really the optimal 'standard' shape in the coming era of LCD screens?

Here's a thread with my thoughts on Half-Depth&trade; Computers...
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=23359

Pssst. Ever see one of these?

[img]snip[/img]

I agree with having new form factors, but the word is ruled by 'standards' and it will always cost to break the mould.

People can have dodecehedrons if they want, but they will have to be prepared to pay.

[Arkham_c]

The cube failed because it cost too much. Plain and simple.

If they would take the eMac guts, put them in a case with a replaceable video card, and sell it for $699, they'd sell a zillion of them and still make the same profit they get off an eMac.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by Arkham_c:
The cube failed because it cost too much. Plain and simple.

If they would take the eMac guts, put them in a case with a replaceable video card, and sell it for $699, they'd sell a zillion of them and still make the same profit they get off an eMac.

And no-one would be buying Powermacs, so they would probably still lose money...

[Arkham_c]

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
And no-one would be buying Powermacs, so they would probably still lose money...

The eMac is hardly a competitor to the high-end Powermac. Slower RAM, no expansion slots, slower processor, no dual-processor. But with a decent video card (or the ability to upgrade to one) it might meet the needs of the gamer and tinkerer crowd that the Cube appealed to.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by Arkham_c:
The eMac is hardly a competitor to the high-end Powermac. Slower RAM, no expansion slots, slower processor, no dual-processor. But with a decent video card (or the ability to upgrade to one) it might meet the needs of the gamer and tinkerer crowd that the Cube appealed to.

The eMac as it stands isn't a competitor, but make it headless...

If you sold a headless eMac with the ability to change video cards, for $600 or there abouts, I honestly think that it would canibalise sales of the lower end Powermac, especially if the G4 Powermac was discontinued.

I mean, the G4 Powermac is still taking sales off the G5...

[freakboy2]

yeah exactly, does anyone buy the low end powermac? it's kind of been a POS for the last 3 years.

now if it was in a small enclosure at least it would have something going for it.

Re: cube and fan w/ cooling:

my cube has a fan and the HD makes more noise than the fan. cheap fans are loud (like the ones apple uses in its powersupplies.) The cube's cooling abilities could be improved with a revision that increased some space and some airflow near the video card and HD. (Using laptop form factor HDs would give you the extra space required.

cubes are awesome. apple thought they would be huge and invested a lot of advertising and money trying to sell them. Ultimately they were seriously overpriced. I'm not sure what you guys are talking about upgradeability with macs for. Cubes have the same proc options (sans duals) as other powermac g4s, and apple has NEVER supported a proc upgrade.

Is there any news about upgrades to g5s? I didn't think so.

fb

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
Apple would be very foolish indeed to launch a machine with the same or similar form factor to that of the cube again.

An intricately unique design like the Cube was, perhaps so. But if you intend this as a blanket statement against small size in general, the situation kinda resembles the iPod/iPod mini one. The Cube was overpriced, the iPod mini apparently not. Small size is a feature.


The "iMac of the future" and a possible "smaller chassis G5" could share a lot of internal design, even if the iMac remained an all-in-one solution. This wouldn't necessarily dilute either design, but perhaps rather allow for marketing experiments by allowing multiple forms. It'll be interesting to see how the cooling will be done, I'm hoping for a quietish liquid-based system.

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
I agree with having new form factors, but thee word is ruled by 'standards' and it will always cost too break the mould

Well, the G5 towers which don't fit our racks or under many of our lab tables certainly broke the mould, compared to the G4s. Now our labs are cluttered by rows of huge monolithic G5 towers that will never be expanded internally. We could have saved the space, just like I'd like to at home.

How much we would have paid for the small-size feature is unsure. But if the price had been the same for a small vs. big G5 tower, we would have gone for the small one.

J

[jrramsey]

I have a cube but needed to upgrade to really run Panther and other apps properly. Now have PL1.4Gig, ATI9000, 823MB RAM, 120gig Barracuda with the PL Clear Cube. This was cheap but now I can run almost anything very well. Even Virtual PC is quite pleasant.

The HD is virtually silent though I don't have some relatively unoffensive noise from the main fan. The Clear Cube enclosure made a big difference in heat reduction and was essential to squeezing in the ATI9000.

My machine now has a few more years of life left in it for less than half the price of an entry level machine. Still limited by Motherboard but love it still.

BTW: Halo rocks!!!

[olePigeon]

I hope they release a Cube-like anniversary Mac.

They could just redo the Cube, but fix a couple things:

1) 1 open PCI slot.
2) No mold lines.
3) In a pinch, maybe extend it a couple inches to accomodate normal sized AGP/PCI cards.

[Vader�s Pinch of Death]

Originally posted by Catfish_Man:
A non-built in screen. Sometimes I *like* being able to plug my own screen in.

If you want anything bigger then a 20 inch screen because you think you are a Pro the word on the street is that Pro's do not use low end computer no matter the monitor attached.

Also, what expandability did the Cube have that the iMac does not?

Using the screen when the rest of the computer is obsolete? Common, the iMac is rather cheap even next to the 20 inch display on its own.

Everyone's problem here is they want a Pro computer that is small but they don't want to pay for it. EXACTLY why the original Cube failed.

[discotronic]

Originally posted by freakboy2:
seriously, if you have a 23 inch apple display, you'll never buy an imac

iMac 20" -- $2199
23" Cinema Display -- $1999

At least with the iMac you only loose 3 inches but you gain a computer

[driven]

Originally posted by Vader�s Pinch of Death:


Also, what expandability did the Cube have that the iMac does not?

Replaceable processor.

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by Vader�s Pinch of Death:
If you want anything bigger then a 20 inch screen because you think you are a Pro the word on the street is that Pro's do not use low end computer no matter the monitor attached.

Umm, pros use a computer that fits the task. An iMac is just fine for a lot of light stuff. Word on the street my ass.

Also, what expandability did the Cube have that the iMac does not?

Again, it had a 2x AGP slot which I've used to upgrade the display card. The display cards, in turn, allow for a variety of displays. An AGP slot is all I'm asking for.

Everyone's problem here is they want a Pro computer that is small but they don't want to pay for it. EXACTLY why the original Cube failed.

Lol, wanting is just fine. Apple has a problem in that they're incapable of producing a smaller computer at a competitive price.

J

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by discotronic:
iMac 20" -- $2199
23" Cinema Display -- $1999

At least with the iMac you only loose 3 inches but you gain a computer

Yup, but some ding dongs want a iMac base with a big ugly CRT display they found in the garage.

[freakboy2]

just mark my words.. pcs will be SMALL in 2 years. people will buy small pcs for home. they won't buy huge machines. There will be CHEAP small alternatives to big towers. Think laptop wihtout a screen.

apple did this already with the cube. they need to do it again.

fb

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by freakboy2:
just mark my words.. pcs will be SMALL in 2 years. people will buy small pcs for home. they won't buy huge machines. There will be CHEAP small alternatives to big towers. Think laptop wihtout a screen.

apple did this already with the cube. they need to do it again.

fb

yeah and it will be called an iMac. Small form factor and a nice screen.

Mike