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lngtones · Jul 20, 2004, 12:09 PM

Something I just learned. WinFS will only work on the My Documents folder:

<http://www.winxpsolution.com/NewinLonghorn.aspx>

So speaking of that, anyone know if Spotlight is only limited to the Home folder?

gorickey · Jul 20, 2004, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by lngtones:
So speaking of that, anyone know if Spotlight is only limited to the Home folder?

It's system-wide.

Horsepoo!!! · 12:23 PM

I think it's safe to say that Mac users will be enjoying what seems to be a better implemented solution than PC users for awhile. Even if Microsoft makes it's search tools system-wide.

And I don't know how much Tiger is going to cost...but I'm ready to bet my house that it'll cost less than Longhorn retail. If Windows XP Home is 199 and was just an upgrade of Windows 2000 (a big one, but an upgrade nonetheless), I'd hate to know how much Longhorn is gonna cost.

What was that about Macs costing more than PCs?

On the other hand...OS X has seen 2 major pay upgrades...so I suppose that makes up for the price difference between OS X upgrades and XP.

MacGorilla · Jul 20, 2004, 12:44 PM

WinFS was supposed to be system wide but they scaled it back so that Longhorn would kinda meet its ship date.

wataru · Jul 20, 2004, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
WinFS was supposed to be system wide but they scaled it back so that Longhorn would kinda meet a ship date.

Fixed.

sanity assassin · Jul 20, 2004, 03:06 PM

From what I know, MS is only scaling back parts of the network WinFS feature set. That article above is pretty misleading in what it says. To be quite honest, Longhorn as of now has an extremely impressive WinFS implentation, and what is planned for the final product is equally impressive.

Part of the situation as to these filesystems is implentation and execution, Apple's, sof far, is not better, or even close at times, to what MS has just now. Who knows though about the future? But from MS' roasmap on WinFS, things seem good.

Personally speaking, I hope they are both as good as each other since I'm a user of both platforms. Got to say it though, I do prefer the way Longhorn's wondow navigation functions. They really do blow away the Finder. IMO.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/Longhorn/u...ic_storage.asp

As to cost, MS have a different pricing/release schedule to that of Apple. Given that then, I've spent more on Mac OS X to stay current than I have with Windows XP.

Horsepoo!!! · 03:36 PM

Maybe it's just me but MS's navigation tools look no more impressive than what the Finder and Spotlight will offer.

Will MS retain a way to navigate a hierarchical filesystem?

Can you tell us why MS's tools will blow the Finder and Spotlight away? So far you've been claiming a lot of things and showing nothing.

The link you provide isn't blowing my skirt up. Spotlight will have all of what is shown on that page...and who knows what else Apple is keeping secret.

hmurchison2001 · Jul 20, 2004, 03:43 PM

I think he's talking about the dynamic display abilities in the windows. The breadcrumb and other stuff. Doesn't look too bad but I hope the final Aero doesn't waste so much space.

While I don't expect Apple to put too much work into the finder I do expect them to add nifty features in Tiger and its successor that will ease the use of finding things.

Longhorn is ambitious. Now we're going to see what MS has up their sleeves. Do they have what it takes to craft a world class OS that isn't hobbled by insecurities and bugs? Apple has probably another 2.5 years to work on the successor to Tiger. I expect OSX to get even better and close what gaps may exist between OSX and Longhorn by late 2006 early 2007.

karbon · Jul 20, 2004, 03:57 PM

error

sanity assassin · Jul 20, 2004, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Maybe it's just me but MS's navigation tools look no more impressive than what the Finder and Spotlight will offer.

Will MS retain a way to navigate a hierarchical filesystem?

Can you tell us why MS's tools will blow the Finder and Spotlight away? So far you've been claiming a lot of things and showing nothing.

The link you provide isn't blowing my skirt up. Spotlight will have all of what is shown on that page...and who knows what else Apple is keeping secret.

Claiming? Merely an observation from using both Tiger and LH. Whether your experiences are different to mine is up to you. I'm not out to convince, but spotlight is NOT WinFS, if you understand what WinFS actually is, you'l understand why. Remember, a key part in this is execution. Look at Panther's search tools, a pain to use in comparion to XP. IMO

A claim is also something you wrote in your first reply in this thread.

Hierarchical navigation? Yup, LH's is much better than what the Finder is, as of now and the Tiger previews. File navigation and system wide searches are much more pervasive and functional in XP just now without having to go to LH. Again, all my opinion.

This is all my opinion,. just mine, no-one elses.

sanity assassin · Jul 20, 2004, 05:46 PM

The breadcrumb concept is really nice, and works fluidly. Windows in themselves display as much data, and services as one needs without having to spawn new windows. There's quite a lot of sweet things in LH, more than what can be shown in screenshots.

To be honest, I'm more buzzed about what LH is going to bring in the long-term than Tiger. There seems to be more ambitious goals n LH than what Tiger is doing. Tiger, while sems to be a nice update, doesn't really do much for me just now. As long as it's functional and does the job, I'l be happy though.

sanity assassin · Jul 20, 2004, 05:49 PM

One last point. LH is slated for a 2006 release. Now going by the release schedule of OS X, and it's slowing of pace, I reckon tiger will be the current OS when LH gets released.

Anyway, for me it's not some race, pistols at dawn, or my gun is bigger than yours, it's going to be great using two, very different, OS'.

Chuckit · Jul 20, 2004, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
One last point. LH is slated for a 2006 release. Now going by the release schedule of OS X, and it's slowing of pace, I reckon tiger will be the current OS when LH gets released.

I reckon Apple will have moved on to lickable time machines operated through telepathy by the time Microsoft gets that puppy out the door.

sanity assassin · Jul 20, 2004, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by Chuckit:
I reckon Apple will have moved on to lickable time machines operated through telepathy by the time Microsoft gets that puppy out the door.

Here's hpoing that doesn't happen, although I am dissapointed by LH's release time-frame, I think it'll be worth the wait.

Thinine · Jul 20, 2004, 08:43 PM

I think we'll see Tiger's successor (Lion?) in 2H 2006 or 1H 2007. Longhorn may one up Tiger in a few areas, but I doubt it'll come close to 10.5. Even slowing major OS X releases to once every 18 or 24 months gives Apple a big advantage when it comes to innovation. As for Longhorn, I'll believe it when I see it.

Horsepoo!!! · Jul 20, 2004, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
Look at Panther's search tools, a pain to use in comparion to XP. IMO

See, this comment right there makes me wonder just how good and accurate your other 'opinions' really are.

CharlesS · Jul 20, 2004, 09:51 PM

Well, let's hear some actual examples of areas in which Longhorn is better than Tiger instead of just "Longhorn is way better" all the time.

MacGorilla · Jul 20, 2004, 10:16 PM

Did I miss something? did this place become WinNN behind my back?

Apfhex · Jul 20, 2004, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
Look at Panther's search tools, a pain to use in comparion to XP. IMO

You must be kidding. I haven't used anything worse than XP's search (Win98 was better!). I really love Panther's search abilities and ease of use. It IS all a matter of opinion of course, but I don't see how anyone puts up with XP's searching. I do hope WinFS is as good as people seem to think, because it's needed.

Catfish_Man · Jul 21, 2004, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Did I miss something? did this place become WinNN behind my back?

It seems to me to just be A) a reaction to rabid win-bashing and B) getting excited about cool tech (however unlikely it is that MS will do it right). However, I do wish someone would post why WinFS is better, rather than just saying it is.

sanity assassin · Jul 21, 2004, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
See, this comment right there makes me wonder just how good and accurate your other 'opinions' really are.

This is all subjective here, you can't say what I think is good, or bad, it's my opinion.

Example. Open a Finder window, now you want to search within that folder via certain criteria. What's your options? The search bar in the Finder window? Limited options from the start, I need to go open up a search window, plus another one that pops up with the results. In XP I can justr click on search within any given window, and all the search functions available elsewgere are available there.

So, in my mind, that is more powerful, less hassle, and a world away from integrated search tools in Panther.

Again, this is all my own opinion, based on my workflow.

sanity assassin · Jul 21, 2004, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by Apfhex:
You must be kidding. I haven't used anything worse than XP's search (Win98 was better!). I really love Panther's search abilities and ease of use. It IS all a matter of opinion of course, but I don't see how anyone puts up with XP's searching. I do hope WinFS is as good as people seem to think, because it's needed.

Exactly, it's all opinion which is what I was saying. I don't like Panther's search tools, and Tiger's actually go along the route of following what XP has. For instance, any XP window offers you the full search capabilities, but Panther doesn't. We need to spawn 2 more more windows in Panther to get our search results, XP it's 1. Now, in Tiger this has become 1 too, so go figure.

But, it's just my opinion.

sanity assassin · Jul 21, 2004, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Did I miss something? did this place become WinNN behind my back?

Looks like it. I'm none too keen on inaccurate articles when it comes to LH, and I'm not some fanboi that I have this strange blind allegince to Apple that somehow turns me into this polarised persobn.I can't honestly understand how some people get so worked up over Windows, it;s like there lives are in danger if it's seen that some people actually like, and think highly of non-Apple OS'.

I certainly do which is why I responded in this thrread.

sanity assassin · Jul 21, 2004, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by Catfish_Man:
It seems to me to just be A) a reaction to rabid win-bashing and B) getting excited about cool tech (however unlikely it is that MS will do it right). However, I do wish someone would post why WinFS is better, rather than just saying it is.

It's a reply to the rabid win-ashing. Rarely do I get excited over an OS. Why is WinFS better? Why is Spotlight better? We see lots of opinions from people saying that, but yet they don't seem to know why it's better than WinFS.

Saying that, I haven't really said that WinFS is better, but that I am more impressed with what MS are doing in LH than I am with Apple and Tiger. That to compare WinFS solely to spotlight is missing the point because the two aren't exactly the same. The rticle I posted above goes someways to explaining WinFS.

Like I said earlier, all of this is subjective, it's personal prefernce and mine baed on using both of these OS'. I can't help what I feel to be better implemented features and I'm sure others have honest differing views. It's the put-downs of Win. that I fond strange, as if somehwere there are battle lines being drawn. Just glad I don't have that mindset.

Horsepoo!!! · 08:04 AM

On the other hand...having the search tools/criterias right there in every frickin' window makes every window needlessly huge and bloated.

I'm all for easier searching. But to sacrifice part of the screen for options I don't use very often is not what I call a good solution.

Based on the screenshots in those links to MS's dev site you posted, every frickin' browser window comes with menus, tasks, the path, search criterion, and the actual file display area itself. To me, this is a bit too much visual information crammed in one little window. Of course, this is my opinion. But also other people's opinion. And in fact, this opinion is probably more popular than your opinion and tastes.

You say you're not some fanboy...but who's kidding who? I think you're a troll cleverly hiding behind smoke and mirrors. It's obvious you don't enjoy the Mac experience at all. You hate the Mac OS mouse acceleration and you prefer search tools and other features that need not be displayed 100% of the time inside windows.

Microsoft has always been big on stuffing as much visual noise as possible in as little space as possible. The Taskbar is a living concept of this: it houses the Start menu, tasks, acts as a favorites launcher, provides a place for control-panel-like apps. The Start menu tries to be a shortcut and maybe a replacement to Windows Explorer...and other such odd options like shutting the computer down or logging out. MS Office applications have toolbars full of 16x16 icons of options most people never use. The overuse of toolbars is MS's speciality.

Sure all of this can all be customized but the fact remains that MS loves visual clutter.

You may like it...and of course, you're entitled to your own opinion, but don't give us this I'm not a polarized person ******** when you definitely are one-sided and camouflaging behind such gems as "Given that then, I've spent more on Mac OS X to stay current than I have with Windows XP" as if it's supposed to make your points more valid.

You've still yet to put more meat into your posts. Everything you write about Longhorn is ambiguous at best and you still haven't clearly explained what's special about Longhorn's WinFS over Spotlight, why LH's hierarchical browsing is better than Mac OS X's hierarchical browsing. And I'd love it if you explained why having extensive search criterion that most people will use once in a blue moon in every browser window makes LH more powerful than having, oh, say, the Spotlight menu.

95% of people 95% of the time won't have to slap on multiple filters to find the files they need. They'll type in something using the Spotlight menus searchfield...and if they *really* can't find the file they want or if the results are too broad, they'll narrow the search inside the Spotlight's window...much like LH.

Now...add more content in your posts or people might keep labeling you as a troll. Somehow you seem to understand WinFS really well but can't get the points across. But you also misunderstand Spotlight very well and get that point across clearly. I could be wrong but methinks you're not really a Mac OS X developer and simply 'came across' of the Tiger dev build and you now know "everything" about Tiger.

Which are you? You've got access to LH builds and you've got the Tiger build. Are you a developer on both platforms? A developer on the Windows platform who's gotten his hands on Tiger? Or not a developer at all who just happened to get his hands on LH and Tiger?

ajbaker · 08:42 AM

Did anyone spot the stacks (or piles as Apple calls them) towards the bottom of this Longhorn article

I thought Apple had patented this idea? Have I missed something?

Horsepoo!!! · Jul 21, 2004, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by ajbaker:
Did anyone spot the stacks (or piles as Apple calls them) towards the bottom of this Lng Longhorn article

I thought Apple had patented this idea? Have I missed something?

There are always exploitable loopholes to patent something (MS patenting the double-click on handheld devices) and exploitable loopholes to get around them (LH's 'stacks'). MS is the king of loophole-finding. And the patent offices are run by idiots.

GENERAL_SMILEY · Jul 21, 2004, 09:40 AM

I'm sorry XP search is horrendous, surely I can't be the only one who thinks this? I have no doubt Longhorn will improve this, it could hardly fail to.

ginoledesma · Jul 21, 2004, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
Exactly, it's all opinion which is what I was saying. I don't like Panther's search tools, and Tiger's actually go along the route of following what XP has. For instance, any XP window offers you the full search capabilities, but Panther doesn't. We need to spawn 2 more more windows in Panther to get our search results, XP it's 1. Now, in Tiger this has become 1 too, so go figure.

I think it's how you work and how you prefer your workflow. In my Windows setup, I don't like using Luna (screenspace and performance is a luxury), so I revert to the classic Windows look and feel.

I find XP's "assisted search" feature (if you call it that) midly annoying. I much prefer Windows 98/WinNT's relatively straightforward Find interface. In XP, I'm asked if I want to search for pictures/music/movies/all files and folders. It's "one click away" in searching for what I need to find (Win98, by comparison, defaults to that and has a neat tabbed interface).

As for Panther, since I use the Aqua (toolbarless) look, I don't have the search field present all the time (just as I do it in my Windows setup -- no search hanging around all the time). In both cases, I have to bring up the Find dialog -- cmd-F on the mac and windows-F on Windows. So both work equally the same for me.

If I use the integrated search bar for both, however, I don't see how XP's 'all criteria' feature is any bit better. It only asks me for the file types at first, if I have to specify locations (to constrain the search) I'd still have to bring up a window to trim it down. That's the same in Panther -- I'm only presented with searching locations, but if I want to specify more criteria, I'd have to drill down further.

Arkham_c · Jul 21, 2004, 10:10 AM

I sincerely hope LH's I/O is better than XP. Right now in XP copying a couple of gigs of files from one server or drive to another will bring even a 2.6GHz PC to its knees. Funny that an iBook that's 3 years old and 2 GHZ slower has no such trouble.

As to search, I don't care for the interface in XP at all. I really like the search bar in the Finder windows, and never find the need to do "command-F". Of course, I use "locate" in the Terminal now and then as well (I spend a lot of time in the Terminal doing java development).

sanity assassin · 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
On the other hand...having the search tools/criterias right there in every frickin' window makes every window needlessly huge and bloated.

There's nothing bloated about it, you choose to bring up the search pane within any window, then with the click of a button, you make it disappear. You better get used to this method since it's what Tiger basically has. The difference just now is that the options for searching in Panther via any window is very limited compared to XP.

Which are you? You've got access to LH builds and you've got the Tiger build. Are you a developer on both platforms? A developer on the Windows platform who's gotten his hands on Tiger? Or not a developer at all who just happened to get his hands on LH and Tiger?

Which? Never realised I had to be on sides here. I work at a pretty well known visual effects company in which we create many of our own tools for the platforms we use (Linux, Windows, Mac, SGI). Due to that, we are naturally members of the developer programs of numerous software makers.

Look, all of this is so beside the point. You prefer one thing, I prefer another. I;m not so hung up on one thing to at the expense of another. But, if we're comparing functionality across platforms, I think we all have our own personal taste. You're not going to convince me of anything because I know what I like, likewise I can't, and am not trying to, convince you. It's all personal opinion. Someone here states how Apple are gonna blow every MS feature out there, so I naturally feel inclined to respond by saying, 'Well, not for me they aren't'.

Because one method works for you, it doesn't transpire that is the case for everyone.

sanity assassin · Jul 21, 2004, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by ginoledesma:
I think it's how you work and how you prefer your workflow. In my Windows setup, I don't like using Luna (screenspace and performance is a luxury), so I revert to the classic Windows look and feel.

I find XP's "assisted search" feature (if you call it that) midly annoying. I much prefer Windows 98/WinNT's relatively straightforward Find interface. In XP, I'm asked if I want to search for pictures/music/movies/all files and folders. It's "one click away" in searching for what I need to find (Win98, by comparison, defaults to that and has a neat tabbed interface).

I'm the same too, don't like the XP built-in themes at all, so use Classic, but I tweak the colours a bit. Also, Luna majorly mucks up the screen on a few full-screen apps. There's some nice themes out there, but none really click with me.

Aqua is the nicest of the lot, not just the look, but the functionality. I tried a few of those Aqua ports on XP but they just don't work, probably due to the differing methods of how they function.

Tiger's search bar is pretty much integrated now into Finder windows, it takes on the rol of providing spotlight functionality and the 'Find' menu/window is now redundant in a way, it brings up a Finder window instead of the old Find dual-pane setup.

Horsepoo!!! · Jul 21, 2004, 02:21 PM

Well anyways...I suppose it's stupid to compare two search tools that have a year or more to mature.

Spotlight in Tiger by no means represents what the final product will look like. There is at least 6 months left for refinement.

LH has at least 2 years left.

I still fail to see why WinFS is going to be better than Spotlight because a certain someone is dodging the question...but whatchagonna do.

MS's recent 'desktop and mail search program' acquisition leads me to believe that WinFS + search tools weren't quite up to Spotlight par...but who knows. Maybe sanity assassin knows...but he won't tell.

Mr Scruff · Jul 21, 2004, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
Claiming? Merely an observation from using both Tiger and LH. Whether your experiences are different to mine is up to you. I'm not out to convince, but spotlight is NOT WinFS, if you understand what WinFS actually is, you'l understand why. Remember, a key part in this is execution. Look at Panther's search tools, a pain to use in comparion to XP. IMO

Dude, I'm not trying to rubbish you for one opinion here, but I just wanted to point out to anyone that hasn't actually used XP this is what it's search looks like.

That's right - you have to interact with a badly rendered 3d dog to search your computer.

Visnaut · Jul 21, 2004, 06:43 PM

How is this or this, or even this, any more intuitive than this?

Even if we're going to compare XP to Panther, you still have to go through just as many, if not more clicks in XP to begin a simple search, compared to the Find dialog box in the Finder. The only difference is that in XP you have to go through a series of clicks to begin any search, and in Panther you go through a series of click to begin an advanced search. Notwithstanding the fact that if you already recall at least part of the filename that you're looking for, you can search instantaneously from any finder window. With one click.

Now let's say we're comparing Spotlight to Longhorn's search capabilites. Advanced options may not be initially be accessible in the Spotlight pull-down window, but I haven't seen anything from Longhorn that indicates that you have those options readily available without first going through a series of clicks.

Moreover, the way Spotlight has been demonstrated allows you to enter advanced parameters straight from your search string. Keywords such as "image" and "portrait", as demonstrated here for example, return all images that are in portrait orientation. Add actual descriptive keywords and periods such as "Last Week", and I can't begin to imagine how Spotlight is any less powerful than whatever Longhorn has shown or promised.

In fact, given everything we know, I find both Apple's current and demonstrated future search features to be much more intuitive and just as powerful as anything Redmond has pumped out or shown to be working on.

And I use Macs and Windows PCs about an equal amount of time.

velporama · Jul 22, 2004, 11:37 AM

Speaking of WinFS and Spotlight ...

Will Spotlight enabled 'Smart Folders' be able to be place in locations other than the sidebar? I would like to have them in my 'Documents' folder and on the desktop.

Cheers,

Velporama

Chris Grande · Jul 22, 2004, 12:00 PM

When you create a Smart Folder it is saved in a folder called 'Saved Searches' in your Home directory, you can then move them anywhere you want.

SoClose · Jul 22, 2004, 02:44 PM

I got to thinking about what some long-term changes that Spotlight might introduce for users. Pure speculation, but fun. Would love to see any discussion of it!