[zanyterp]

evenin' !

i was wondering how much of a difference in pay and job opportunities between having a bachelor's and master's degree in the field of programming/computer science? is the difference worth the pay, or more just experience and the piece of lamb skin? same for PhD?

also, if i am able to prove that i can code and am good at it by the time a graduate, or at least have samples of my work, how important would A+ certification be? i know it is a hardware certification, but i have heard several of my professors talk about the importance in the field--or is it more for the networking & other more hardware specific areas? thanks!!!!

nick

[Kristoff]

CS professors tell you that it's important to have an A+?

That's lame. They're lame.

"Computer Science is as much about computers as astronomy is about telescopes"

Ask them if they know who's words those are.

My guess...they'll give you some confounded look--a blank stare.

What morons. Sorry...you need to find a new school pronto.

BTW, it was Edsgar Dijkstra, and a parallel point is that any employer who stresses the importance of A+ isn't looking for a Computer Scientist.

Sigh.....that's what's wrong with the field these days.

And don't even get me started on how the term "Software Engineer" is thrown about anymore. It's utter nonsense. They take some random turd with a B.A. in some unrelated field and because he can click the mouse a few times in Visual Studio while tugging on his genitals, they proclaim--with mighty authority--that he is a "Software Engineer".

Microsoft themselves had a very insulting advert at one point not so long ago. It had something like a fireman, a doctor, an astronaut and some dork. It said something along the lines of: "How much training does it take to be a:" fireman- 2 years, doctor- 8 years, astronaut- 10 years, Software Engineer- Yesterday!!!

WHEEEE! With .NET we can take monkeys and stick them in front of Visual Studio. A few mouse clicks and a couple tugs later, they become "Software Engineers".
Isn't it just fabulous!

Excuse me while I vomit .

Do yourself a favor. You're still young. Switch to medicine. Become a radiologist or an orthopedic surgeon. You are wasting your time in a dying field where one day you will be replaced by a wizard that can be manipulated by "Software Engineers" with a couple of mouse clicks simply because management doesn't understand the difference between {Galileo, Newton, Cassini} and {Tasco, Jason, Bushnell}.

I am serious. In 10 years, I want you to replace my hip, not my hard drive.

Don't say you weren't warned.

[depolitic]

While Kristoff is sounding a bit down in his post - I second his view - I have been web developing for 5 years in IT and next year I am enrolling in a Post Grad in Psychology, I have had enough.

I was working with JSP, JSTL, XPath, and XML with a little Java (Nothing to heavy I will admit) and getting paid about the same as an officer cleaner / toilet cleaner. $12.50 per hour before Tax in Australian dollars.

Now I though about going to do more study however their was no guaranty that even after finishing my studies that I would make more money, and the odds were that I would find it harder to find work, being now over qualified.

Employers can get away with it because their is no respect for technical skill, we are simple refereed to as the web monkeys - monkeys being the key word.

A dime a dozen. we are.

Psychology is were the money is expected to see huge growth in mental health care in the next ten years.

Kristoff is right in that your professors are complete morons. Is this an accredited university you are attending or a commercial IT school? A+ certification is a pile of BS invented to sell tests and courses.

Regardless, a B.Sc. or Masters won't mean anything to a pay scale in most places if you can do the work. But, if you are considering a Masters only to get more money, then you should ask yourself why you took computer science in the first place.

To echo other statements, the computing industry is in the sad state it is in because so many people entered into the field only because they thought they could make easy money. Thankfully, the low number of jobs and shrunken wages will weed out the developers who don't really care about the craft, and only care about the money.

In a few years, there will be a shortage again, and the wages will slowly rise. If you are one of those people that love computer science and love programming, then stick with it. If you are one of those that sort of like computers and want a cushy job making money, look elsewhere.

Since you are still in school, I recommend working with other students a lot - talk about things, get together, start your own project. That is how the true breakthroughs in the field will come about. They definitely won't come from an office where they ensure to hire only A+ certified applicants.

[djohnson]

Some very good posts above!

Let me add my $50,000 into the mix... If you are really serious about programming for a living, do more than is required. When you are getting your degree, most of the classes are theory based. Very few of the ones I took are manipulating and creating code. This is what I love to do. Create something new or figure something out without following someone else's instructions. Many times when I am working on projects, I will scrap my old code and start over again just to see if I can find a faster more efficient way of obtaining the same results.

Oh and the last time I checked, the difference in pay is minimal, like $3000 a year. However, some places will not consider you unless you have some kind of actual experience. Whether this is a program or 3 you created, work experience, or a master's degree is up to them. If you do start making your own programs be careful. You might want to start doing that fulltime!

Finally, A+ is a bunch of garbage meant for those people that do not have college educations. Tell you what, if you want to be "certified", send some money my way and I will make an awesome certificate that shows that you are C+ Certified.

[zanyterp]

Originally posted by Kristoff:
CS professors tell you that it's important to have an A+?

<snip>
I am serious. In 10 years, I want you to replace my hip, not my hard drive.

Don't say you weren't warned.

well. . .it could be that they said it during hardware and networking courses, so maybe that is why they think that. . .but that is alos why i was checking with a broader group.

as far as in 10 years i would rather be writing the program that is making the operation on your hip possible than actually doing it (as surgeion), but thanks for the offer.

[itai195]

Originally posted by zanyterp:
evenin' !

i was wondering how much of a difference in pay and job opportunities between having a bachelor's and master's degree in the field of programming/computer science? is the difference worth the pay, or more just experience and the piece of lamb skin? same for PhD?

From my own experience, the pay difference is not worth it. That said, I think a masters may help you be more competitive for some jobs today and in the future. The only other thing I'd suggest is to try to learn about information security if you're interested in that area. It's going to be a booming field and people are in high demand.

I'd echo Kristoff's general cynicism regarding the state of our industry, but I still think that if you enjoy the profession you should try to stick it out.

[zanyterp]

Originally posted by itai195:
From my own experience, the pay difference is not worth it. That said, I think a masters may help you be more competitive for some jobs today and in the future. The only other thing I'd suggest is to try to learn about information security if you're interested in that area. It's going to be a booming field and people are in high demand.

I'd echo Kristoff's general cynicism regarding the state of our industry, but I still think that if you enjoy the profession you should try to stick it out.

information security as in how to keep the bad guys out as much as possible and other ways to ensure that information remains safe and sound?

the cynicism is bound to happen no matter what profession you look at, so i think i will keep with this one and enjoy (and i am sure alternately hate) whatever happens to come my way.

[johnMG]

> the cynicism is bound to happen no matter what profession you look at,

Perhaps, but that's only a small part of what you're seeing in this thread.

It really *is* *bad*, for a number of reasons which are all happening at the same time and which I'm sure you've read about elsewhere (outsourcing, H1-B's, dot-com burst, etc.).

Btw, Kristoff, switching to medicine is a bad idea too (in the USA anyway). I know a fellow who became a neurologist recently. He rues the day he made the decision to go into medicine. His daily routine revolves around avoiding getting sued for malpractice, paying off giant school loans, and paying exorbitant malpractice insurance (and yes, he's a great doctor, and no, he's never been sued for malpractice, and yes, his beeper goes off all the time while he's on-call). Here in the states, we've got ObGyn's even refusing to do regular deliveries because of the high risk of getting sued and having your practice go through hell. It's a *mess*.

Perhaps going into a trade is a good idea. I'm currently an underemployed software dev making $12.50 USD/hr (no benefits), and in my geographic area that's the same as an apprentice electrician (and you get some sort of benefits).

Feh.

[Kristoff]

blah

[zanyterp]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Some very good posts above!

<snip>
Oh and the last time I checked, the difference in pay is minimal, like $3000 a year. However, some places will not consider you unless you have some kind of actual experience. Whether this is a program or 3 you created, work experience, or a master's degree is up to them. If you do start making your own programs be careful. You might want to start doing that fulltime!

<snip>

that's the hope anyway. so if i were to attempt to start some programs of my own, is there any place that i could post either source code if i want help with style/getting stuff to work properly if i can't get it narrowed down? or for my GUI elements worked up in IB (and if yes, would it be better posted as a screen shot, or the file itself to be analyzed? or does it vary from place to place?) i know here is one place for at least the code aspect, but are there others as well?

[davechen]

From an economic standpoint the higher degrees probably aren't worth it. A doctorate is almost certainly not worth it. But for me a PhD allowed me to do more interesting work. I do research in computer graphics and medical visualization, and it'd be hard (although not impossible) to get a research job like that without a higher degree.

If you look at the research and development people at Pixar, they pretty much all have PhDs. To me that'd be the coolest job.

Without a higher degree you're more likely to end up as a Windows admin or a Visual Basic programmer. Not the type of job that sounds any fun to me. Also a higher degree and more specialization make it less likely that your job and be outsourced to India.

BTW- I do get paid quite well, but if you took my time in grad school and had work experience instead, you'd probably get paid similarly or maybe more.

[zanyterp]

Originally posted by davechen:
From an economic standpoint the higher degrees probably aren't worth it. A doctorate is almost certainly not worth it. But for me a PhD allowed me to do more interesting work. I do research in computer graphics and medical visualization, and it'd be hard (although not impossible) to get a research job like that without a higher degree.

If you look at the research and development people at Pixar, they pretty much all have PhDs. To me that'd be the coolest job.

Without a higher degree you're more likely to end up as a Windows admin or a Visual Basic programmer. Not the type of job that sounds any fun to me. Also a higher degree and more specialization make it less likely that your job and be outsourced to India.

BTW- I do get paid quite well, but if you took my time in grad school and had work experience instead, you'd probably get paid similarly or maybe more.

anyone have an idea if when the jobs say they require experience if college counts? or not really, even if the courses focused on doing programming? or if while in school started doing programming and could show examples of programs, would that work for the experience requirement in some cases?

thanks!

[Kristoff]

You need experience above and beyond course work.

If you can't get a job coding while in school, join an Open Source project--that's the next best thing.

But, I thought I told you to change majors?

[zanyterp]

Originally posted by Kristoff:
You need experience above and beyond course work.

If you can't get a job coding while in school, join an Open Source project--that's the next best thing.

But, I thought I told you to change majors?

you did, and i believe i told you i would rather be the one programming the robot/computer/et cetera helping the surgeon replacing your knee(s) than the one doing it as well? besides, i have already time and money invested in this career and i believe i can make it work for me. there is light at the end of the tunnel and i am not willing to give it up. i do appreciate your advice. so, how does one join an Open Source project-just sign up at like sourceforg or other places? or just start working on my own additions to other projects? (following all licensing rules, of course?)

[Kristoff]

Yeah, just pick something you want to work on, like Camino or Open Office or whatever, join the mailing list, pick a bug, fix the code, and follow the projects guidelines for submitting patches. The nice thing about doing that is that the record of what you've done is available to any employer via the internet. You might even get unsolicited offers if you do something that is outstanding.

Say you submit 15 patches to Mozilla. You can list the bugIDs on your resume, and an employer could--in theory--check your work and how well you communicate via the mailing list archives. Anyone else who works on the project might say "That Nick really writes great code, and he finally fixed the 'hogs CPU for no reason' bug in Camino. We could use a guy like that!"

Now, the only problem with that is most employers hire techno-morons to fill HR positions and said morons don't know their ass from their elbows when it comes to evaluating computer scientists. Rather, they look for buzzwords on your resume. So, you also have to learn to craft a resume that will get passed this first round of turds and hopefully it will land on someone's desk who actually knows what SourceForge is.

Good luck to you......but, Nicholas, it's not too late

[zanyterp]

Originally posted by Kristoff:
Yeah, just pick something you want to work on, like Camino or Open Office or whatever, join the mailing list, pick a bug, fix the code, and follow the projects guidelines for submitting patches. The nice thing about doing that is that the record of what you've done is available to any employer via the internet. You might even get unsolicited offers if you do something that is outstanding.

Say you submit 15 patches to Mozilla. You can list the bugIDs on your resume, and an employer could--in theory--check your work and how well you communicate via the mailing list archives. Anyone else who works on the project might say "That Nick really writes great code, and he finally fixed the 'hogs CPU for no reason' bug in Camino. We could use a guy like that!"

Now, the only problem with that is most employers hire techno-morons to fill HR positions and said morons don't know their ass from their elbows when it comes to evaluating computer scientists. Rather, they look for buzzwords on your resume. So, you also have to learn to craft a resume that will get passed this first round of turds and hopefully it will land on someone's desk who actually knows what SourceForge is.

Good luck to you......but, Nicholas, it's not too late

the joys of working for idiots? it's just a matter of which one and how high up they are? thanks for the concern about my schooling and future, but i think i will stay where i am at--only about 20 months left and already have everything going for school stuff and funding. besides would you rather had someone replacing your knees because s/he enjoys it or because you have money (or at least insurance)? who would you rather have coding your computer to make it work--the clueless ones you mentioned? or someone who does it because s/he enjoys it. . .or even better, the person who programmed the machine to replace your knees (sorry keep using that reference, it is a good one you brought up earlier)-- would you rather s/he be a button pusher or a coder?

thanks for the ideas on coding and how to get recognition when i make it that far.
nick

[CincyGamer]

my experience:

I went to the typical large university right out of high school.. Univ of Cincinnati, which is more theory based (i.e. more paper/book problems than programming assigments) Started in 93.

Picked up some internships towards the end of college (flipped burgers for too long - big regret).. Got a scholarship to go to masters program at UC. Did that.. So, at this point I am in school 7 years (5+2), have about 2 years of intership work, $45000 in debt (living on my own with no help from parents), but I have a MSCS and its yr 2000. (Market still good)

Here's reality:

I am flown to Microsoft for a week for interviews, didnt get it.
I turn down a chance to move to Silicon Valley to work as a software installer/web admin for InterWoven (family and gf talked me out of it) Sun Micro calls me up and asks me how much salary I want to move to CA and I said 40K Cincy dollars, and they say "too high", so I say "I'll take less, I want to work for Sun", they are like we cant pay you any less, you wont be able to survive out here. End of conversation.

I see my Indian classmates (white guy the small minority at UC) graduation, most got jobs at Sun.. So Sun is hiring these guys cheap and they all live together like migrant workers. So F Sun.. We are in the same classes, grades etc, its not like the Indian classmates had a lot of stuff different from me. The truth is Indian managers hire Indians over Americans so its doesnt matter. Most of the modern development teams are mostly foreigners at Sun, Microsoft, Intel etc..


So, I have bills to pay (scholarship ends, I graduated, out on the street here) and took a local job at a health insurance company as "Sr. Programmer Analyst". Its a IT job.. VB, SQl Server, reports.. All the cool things I want to do that I learned at school have gone out the window.. Such as advanced OOP, distributed programming, AI, graphics, compilers, etc.. The CS stuff.

A typical day does not involve muchj or little programming which is mostly just writing front end to databases or adding if statements and logic (business rules to programs).. its very boring, but I need some real experience and the pay is good (signed on for mid 40's now make high 50Ks)

-----

So, I decided to ditch this IT job abd go after a more challenging job. I talked to Apple and was working on getting an internship in their compiler group, but needed to go back to school and take compiler courses. So, I did that, but I didnt do well in the class as my mind is so numbed from years of redundant IT work.

So, I took another programmer job at a company called Lexis Nexis, but I was a contractor and my contract was going to end and not get signed on, so I bailed and went back to my old job..

I am currently learning the Objective-C language and Cocoa and Apple frameworks and hoping to try to get signed on with them in some capacity soon. But as much as it sounds depressing, I am 29 and making about $60K a year, that is good money especially when you live in Ohio and are single.

You need to switch schools, A+ cert is for non programmers. Its like programmers advertising that they are Office MOUS certified. Because of my education, I have a good background and can learn things very fast, but am biased towards the academic things I learned in school.


If I could do it over again, I would have gone to a better CS school, but that was in the 90s.. In today's market, even MIT grads are having a hard time getting a job for even $45K from what the media describes. I would just get the BS degree and work. The PH.D has no weight anymore unless for Google and the 100 or so spots a year Microsoft looks for Ph.Ds. . The thing is compnaies only want you if the Ph.D you study is related to what they do. So it can hurt you. Plus, in reality people dont like to hire Ph.Ds for programming.

Good luck. Bt any college degree is better than none. It makes a difference from what I have seen.

[itai195]

Originally posted by zanyterp:
who would you rather have coding your computer to make it work--the clueless ones you mentioned? or someone who does it because s/he enjoys it. . .

The problem is all the folks who are good programmers, but don't enjoy it and/or are willing to be exploited by their employers.

[zanyterp]

Originally posted by itai195:
The problem is all the folks who are good programmers, but don't enjoy it and/or are willing to be exploited by their employers.

why are they the problem? i don't mean to be facetious (sp?) or stupid, just wondering.

--CincyGamer: at least that is something feasible for most people in your neck of the woods. yes it does not sound like much, but it is better than what some get-and that's just straight income. look at the bright side, it's not much but it's steady. i work in the k-12 setting (not computer related, but it is how i am paying for school) on an hourly basis which means no school, no pa--all vacations inherent in that type of environment. have fun! thanks.

[Kristoff]

It's a problem because they drive wages down.

I interviewed at Oracle in San Diego, and about **** myself when they told me what they were paying--I could have made as much as an auto mechanic. So, they too have a bunch of H1Bs who can barely speak English, and they hobble together some of the worst applications out there. Companies who use their iApps have to have armies of staff submitting TARs and staging patches just to get and keep the crap running. Pathetic.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Kristoff:
It's a problem because they drive wages down.

Exactly. My first job offer out of college was at a startup in San Mateo and I was offered about the same amount a well-paid shoe store manager makes. That won't cut it. What's distressing is I bet 90% of the others who also received this offer would have taken it. I turned it down and am better off for it today. It's not so much about the money for me as much as it is the desire to be valued. There are only a few major software development companies that still value programmers -- Microsoft and Apple amongst them. I've found that programmers seem more highly valued outside of the software development industry itself.

I'd like to think that a few years down the road, when the baby boomers start retiring and the workforce shrinks, these companies will suffer for shortchanging their employees... but that's probably wishful thinking.

[zanyterp]

Originally posted by itai195:
Exactly. My first job offer out of college was at a startup in San Mateo and I was offered about the same amount a well-paid shoe store manager makes. That won't cut it. What's distressing is I bet 90% of the others who also received this offer would have taken it. I turned it down and am better off for it today. It's not so much about the money for me as much as it is the desire to be valued.

I'd like to think that a few years down the road, when the baby boomers start retiring and the workforce shrinks, these companies will suffer for shortchanging their employees... but that's probably wishful thinking.

but isn't that a good way to get yourself shot in the foot? or is it just the way the game is played and you hope you win out in the end? but isn't that the way it is in all fields and it is a gamble no matter what you do? . . . or is just that the career i have now and what i am going into are that way?

[itai195]

Originally posted by zanyterp:
but isn't that a good way to get yourself shot in the foot? or is it just the way the game is played and you hope you win out in the end? but isn't that the way it is in all fields and it is a gamble no matter what you do? . . . or is just that the career i have now and what i am going into are that way?

It is like that in all fields to some extent. You have to know what your value is, and not sell yourself short. Letting yourself be exploited is the best way to get yourself shot in the foot.

Now that said, if I were desperate for a job at the time, I probably would have taken this crappy offer. But I wasn't desperate, and I also happened to know that it was highly likely I'd receive an offer from a different company within a few days. But I'm talking more about the environment that made the situation possible in the first place.

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by Kristoff:
CS professors tell you that it's important to have an A+?

That's lame. They're lame.

"Computer Science is as much about computers as astronomy is about telescopes"

Ask them if they know who's words those are.

My guess...they'll give you some confounded look--a blank stare.

What morons. Sorry...you need to find a new school pronto.

BTW, it was Edsgar Dijkstra, and a parallel point is that any employer who stresses the importance of A+ isn't looking for a Computer Scientist.

Sigh.....that's what's wrong with the field these days.

And don't even get me started on how the term "Software Engineer" is thrown about anymore. It's utter nonsense. They take some random turd with a B.A. in some unrelated field and because he can click the mouse a few times in Visual Studio while tugging on his genitals, they proclaim--with mighty authority--that he is a "Software Engineer".

Microsoft themselves had a very insulting advert at one point not so long ago. It had something like a fireman, a doctor, an astronaut and some dork. It said something along the lines of: "How much training does it take to be a:" fireman- 2 years, doctor- 8 years, astronaut- 10 years, Software Engineer- Yesterday!!!

WHEEEE! With .NET we can take monkeys and stick them in front of Visual Studio. A few mouse clicks and a couple tugs later, they become "Software Engineers".
Isn't it just fabulous!

Excuse me while I vomit .

Do yourself a favor. You're still young. Switch to medicine. Become a radiologist or an orthopedic surgeon. You are wasting your time in a dying field where one day you will be replaced by a wizard that can be manipulated by "Software Engineers" with a couple of mouse clicks simply because management doesn't understand the difference between {Galileo, Newton, Cassini} and {Tasco, Jason, Bushnell}.

I am serious. In 10 years, I want you to replace my hip, not my hard drive.

Don't say you weren't warned.

you sound the same about your chosen profession as I do about mine... As a pilot my profession has gone down the tubes as well. The so called "pilot shortage" flooded the market with mid-career changers who wanted to be an "airline pilot" but nobody bother to tell them that the vast majority of pilot jobs are in the "commuters" where they pay between 15K and 80K/year over the 15 year pay scale. What utter nonsense.. pilot shortage my ass.

I'm changing careers ASAP. I have a great oportinity to go into a family business with my bro-in-law and manage commercial properties that we'll buy.

Computer science is apparently the same. Used to be a computer engineer was a title only the few held.. now everyone is an engineer...

Medicine is no better... Nurses getting paid 1/3 as much are replacing doctors everywhere the HMO's can get them in.

[techtrucker]

Thanks for the reminder UnixMac . Started out in aviation, was a charter pilot and flight instructor. When I saw the way that industry worked (next job I was in line for was probably commuter, starting around $19K/yr) I bailed and got into IT. Now I'm out of work thanks to outsourcing, and having a hard time finding another IT job. So I was forced to dust off my class a cdl, now I'm driving a tractor-trailer to keep the roof over our heads.
The industrial age built this country, we gave most of that away, now we're doing the same with the information age. And if one more person tells me the future is in "Services" I'm going to strangle them.

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by techtrucker:
Think about how I feel. Started out in aviation, was a charter pilot and flight instructor. When I saw the way that industry worked (next job I was in line for was probably commuter, starting around $19K/yr. So I bailed and got into IT. Now I'm out of work thanks to outsourcing, and having a hard time finding another IT job. So I was forced to dust off my class a cdl, now I'm driving a tractor-trailer to keep the roof over our heads.
The industrial age built this country, we gave most of that away, now we're doing the same with the information age. And if one more person tells me the future is in "Services" I'm going to strangle them.

Frustrating, aint it..

[Kristoff]

Originally posted by techtrucker:
And if one more person tells me the future is in "Services" I'm going to strangle them.

Roger that.....but I was thinking something more along the lines of bludgeoning / blunt force trauma.

[cutterjohn]

Originally posted by CincyGamer:
my experience:

Sun Micro calls me up and asks me how much salary I want to move to CA and I said 40K Cincy dollars, and they say "too high", so I say "I'll take less, I want to work for Sun", they are like we cant pay you any less, you wont be able to survive out here. End of conversation.

Typical. See Below

I see my Indian classmates (white guy the small minority at UC) graduation, most got jobs at Sun.. So Sun is hiring these guys cheap and they all live together like migrant workers. So F Sun.. We are in the same classes, grades etc, its not like the Indian classmates had a lot of stuff different from me. The truth is Indian managers hire Indians over Americans so its doesnt matter. Most of the modern development teams are mostly foreigners at Sun, Microsoft, Intel etc..

Heh, and they still live like that when working as H1-Bs. On another not so funny note, did you notice the MSNBC article, recently re-referenced on /. about an owner of a sw dev house in Indiana bemoaning the "low" limit and H1-Bs and the "lack" of "qualified" citizen talent?
(Also at my university the profs were like that as well: all Indians and Chinese, except for a token. And on another education related side note a friend of mine decided to finish his PhD in CE and got a decent paying job, but that was back in the days of decent pay.)


HR people: Yeah, I think that their interviews must consist of a game of scrabble in which only acronyms are allowed.

*BAs: Kind of funny how the BAs are still passing out "signing bonuses", 6 figure salaries to each other, and other little "perks"(expense account cheating anyone?) for doing jack, and running companies into the ground.

Education: There are WAY too many puppies in the world, many of whom have tech degrees and are willing(and able) to work for peanuts in US cost of living terms. I'd strongly suggest as others have changing to a major in something that cannot easily be done remotely, or winning the lottery.

[zanyterp]

Originally posted by cutterjohn:
Typical. See Below

<snip>
HR people: Yeah, I think that their interviews must consist of a game of scrabble in which only acronyms are allowed.

*BAs: Kind of funny how the BAs are still passing out "signing bonuses", 6 figure salaries to each other, and other little "perks"(expense account cheating anyone?) for doing jack, and running companies into the ground.

Education: There are WAY too many puppies in the world, many of whom have tech degrees and are willing(and able) to work for peanuts in US cost of living terms. I'd strongly suggest as others have changing to a major in something that cannot easily be done remotely, or winning the lottery.

</snip>

any idea how any one <i>can</i> work for peanuts in US and still get by and make a living? is it just that-scraping by?

[techtrucker]

Yes, forget about a nice home, 3 kids and a minivan. Think small apartment, roomates and an old VW Golf...

[UnixMac]

Here are some interesting facts that I have from a marketing study that was recently done at UofA. I read the paper report at the school library only just the other day.


Back in the mid 50's a professional man could go out and work an (40 hr week) 8 hr day, 5 days a week and earn enough to buy a his spacious new house in cash with 5 times his annual salary.

That house would be in a middle class neighborhood (back in those days, the middle class was like today's upper middle class).

He could afford a new luxury car every 5 years and pay cash for it. A new car costs 1/5 his annual salary.

His only debt was usually his home

His wife raised their kids and managed the household instead of having to work.

AND he could save 10% of his after tax income!

-------

Today...

The man and the women usually work, and at least one of them spends 10 hrs or more per day and/or 5-6 days per week at work.

A house in some areas costs as much as much as 20x a highly paid professional salary

That salary by it's self with the price of the house makes it impossible to pay cash for a car, which now costs an average of 1/2 a professional yearly salary.

They have an average of 10% of their annual income in consumer debt.

Kids are in day care (sociologically proven inferior)

And they save less than 2% average.



Cause..... a MAJOR shift in the labor curve due to two main causes.

1. Women are more and more (some 60% now) part of the labor force, thus a significant increase in the labor supply.

2. Global outsourcing of labor, and importation of labor (as we discussed in this thread)


I'll let you guys make your own conclusions.

[Richard Edgar]

Another data point: A friend of mine did a PhD in Computer Science, and immediately got a job with Intel Research. On that (at age 26), he's got a mortgage, wife, and new baby. I don't believe he has any financial problems.

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by Richard Edgar:
Another data point: A friend of mine did a PhD in Computer Science, and immediately got a job with Intel Research. On that (at age 26), he's got a mortgage, wife, and new baby. I don't believe he has any financial problems.

As with my cousin who graduated undergrad from Cal Tech in Mathematics and PhD from MIT in computer engineering. He works at IBM with a very large salary... but you're talking about the creme la creme of IQ/education here, and not the average working stiff.

[Richard Edgar]

but you're talking about the creme la creme of IQ/education here

Well, naturally.

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by Richard Edgar:
Well, naturally.

But lets face it, in the real world, we all hover around 100-120 IQ, and no 160+

America has a lot of those 100-120 IQ jobs that used to pay well going overseas and to low paid migrants.

Anyway... I'm not going to change it by dwelling on it.

[techtrucker]

All I know is it leaves an awful lot of fairly well educated individuals with homes and children sitting there wondering how the heck they're going to keep themselves afloat...