[SillyMonk]

I have a question: will OS X ( i.e. Aqua, CLI, UNIX, Dock, etc.) mess with people's identities as "Mac People."

Or put another way: are people "Mac People" because of the old OS 1-9 or for some other reason?

I also want to say a few things about mac people. This is longish, it rambles, read at own risk.

I am a recent mac owner, so I am not really a long-time Mac person. I have used Macs before but never coughed up money to buy one until I heard about OS X coming and blew a gasket. After LINUX disappointments, I was happy to see a company that was traditionally good at UI work on a Mach/BSD core. I had worked with Macs as a systems analyst when I had to support about 300 of them: OS 7.6, OS 8.0, ASIP, VMS file-serving for macs, all kinds of stuff. I even used Apple's previous UNIX-type thing --A/UX, which not too many people are talking about.

With all of the excitement in the Mac community lately I have been watching the MacNN boards quite frequently (as have many others) and I have been digging the general chaos that has ensued. Maybe I'm boring but it has been fun trying to keep up with dubious release builds and disappearing screenshots. I learned what FUD means. I got to see who my fellow Mac people are. I never got this excited about anything on the PC machine. Maybe I was too busy reinstaling drivers...

I have known a fair amount of computer people: I was a programmer, and I went to school for Computer Science. I have noticed some things about Mac people, as opposed to PC people. But I have noticed how emotional Mac people can get about stuff. Now I mean this in the good sense only and not the (emotional==irrational) sense. I love it that Mac people get upset or joyous about their computers! They curse Apple, they love Apple, they flame, they rant and laugh. It makes me proud to be a Mac owner. Now it seems weird to think of yourself a certain way just because you traded money for a product, but still you start loving your mac, don't you? It is an identity. You end up caring. At least I do.

What does this have to do with OS X? I think the madness lately about OSX, with all of the fake builds, leaks, rumors, and discussions is really good for the Apple community. I think the excitement is going to take the platform to someplace new. Now some people think this new place will be failure, I think it will be greatness.

It will be greatness.

Thanks,
John

i think alot of it comes from passion (from steve, and almost everyone at apple) unlike just making products for money.. not that there is anything wrong with that...

i hated apple may time (every day i tried to dial an isp on that awful geoport modem) and loved the company many more (when i got my first apple si, it was sweeettttt)

anyway, yeah apple is a pasionate thing, in that either you get (and love it) or you dont (and think we are nuts)

[cynistar]

Great post and dead on. Other computer companies may have more CUSTOMERS. Apple has FANS.

[fats]

I ordered a hat with an apple logo on it.

Also I once attacked some pompous idiot who claimed that the G4 processor was simply a watered down Celeron. I don't know where these pompous idiots get these things...

[Cipher13]

Damn right dude.
Its not just a computer - its a way of life (that in someones sig?).

(although I disagree with one statement - Apple is in it for the money as much as Compaq or anyone else. They just know what they're doing )

Cipher13

[This message has been edited by Cipher13 (edited 03-17-2001).]

[cynistar]

Hmmm, I can't say Apple is in it "for the money" - I think it is clear they are largely, as long as Jobs is there driven by a desire for legacy.

I think it is kind of like, We're going to be as original, pioneering and innovative as we can be, while still making money.

Versus, Compaq, etc... Where it's pretty much "We're gonna make as much money as possible" - That's it...

[mindwaves]

They have to be this:



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Here�s to the crazy ones.

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����The rebels.

������The troublemakers.

��������The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things differently.


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���� And they have no respect for the status quo.


You can praise them, disagree with them, quote them,

���� disbelieve them, glorify or vilify them.

About the only thing you can�t do is ignore them.

������Because they change things.

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They invent.����They imagine.����They heal.

��They explore.����They create.����They inspire.

����They push the human race forward.


Maybe they have to be crazy.

How else can you stare at an empty canvas and see a work of art?
Or sit in silence and hear a song that�s never been written?
Or gaze at a red planet and see a laboratory on wheels?

We make tools for these kinds of people.

�

While some see them as the crazy ones,
���we see genius.

Because the people who are crazy enough to think
they can change the world, are the ones who do.

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[kps111]

You're a Mac person not just because you use a Mac, but because you bought into a different way of doing things. Most Mac people are passionate about their computer experience and avoid the hurd mentality.

You bought into it because of OSX ...see, that's being passionate about your computer experience and it'll definitly be a different way of doing things, so you qualify.

[parallax]

Douglas Adams is a mac person. He generalizes the un-generalizable.

Apple doesn't have FANS, Apple has ZEALOTS.

[cacarr1]

I wonder if people get that same feeling seeing the 'Dell' logo for example as I do when I see the Apple logo. I can't really explain, or pinpoint the moment it began, but...let me put it this way, I actually take pictures of my computer setup to show to friends living elsewhere. How many PC users do you know doing that? Anyway, well put SillyMonk.

[slider]

I am a mac person, therefore I think, I think therefore I am, I am therefore imac.

I love my mac and I am a fan or zealot, I do get passionate about this stuff. Windows is just dumb, I can't believe that is the platform used by the majority of the world, it's just dumb.

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by SillyMonk:
What makes a Mac person?

Originally posted by parallax:
Apple doesn't have FANS, Apple has ZEALOTS.

Well, I agree with parallax. But unfortunately, what I see (especially from reading these boards of late) is that "Mac people" have sadly changed radically in the past 10 years. I've been using Macs since they arrived, and Apples before that. I can tell you that there used to be a very different spirit in the community. Not that it's not there, just that it's been drowned out by the folks who are - in one way or another - afraid of change. Zealots are not generally open-minded people.

I suppose this happened of necessity: when I first became involved with the Apple community, being part of that community was a shared badge of uniqueness. We took radically different tools (sometimes better, sometimes not) and worked with them to make them better and us more productive. We embraced change in the belief that we could build (and all deserved) something better than the status quo.

Now, we're trapped by our success. There are many in the Mac community who have a vested interest in the status quo, who are afraid of change, who don't want to deal with something new in the short term - even if it means a great leap forward in the long run. Even worse, Apple has become the touchstone for innovation, the "Go To Guys" for new ideas. This is an extremely difficult position, because any radical advance involves pain, and suffering pain in the limelight is enough to kill your tenuous beginning in these hypermediated days. So many great ideas never leave the launchpad because some airhead analyst's disparaging remark gains media velocity. I never thought this attitude would come to the Mac community, but here it is, and we've been suffering it for years (ref: OpenDoc, Hypercard, GeoPort, Taligent...MacOS X?)

So what makes a Mac person? Once, I would have said "A love of innovation" or "A desire to participate in the evolution of something better". More and more often, I find myself answering, simply, "Whining".

[This message has been edited by dogzilla (edited 03-17-2001).]

[SkullMacPN]

Originally posted by parallax:
Douglas Adams is a mac person. He generalizes the un-generalizable.

Apple doesn't have FANS, Apple has ZEALOTS.

I can see it now. SJ is Aiur, and we're all his Protoss Zealots. Maybe Avie(sp) is a Templar...

Bill Gates is the evil Zerg Overmind, and the adaptable terrans are the Linux/Open Source community.

[Sawtooth2000]

Please educate me. What was so great about OpenDoc? I used it a little years ago and found it to be awful.

I don't necessarily disagree with the first premise of this thread. Change is definately feared and is painful at first, and may benefit in the long run.

However, sometimes, change for the sake of change isn't good. Just because something is a change doesn't make it better. What happens if you make something as great as it can be, do you make changes just for the sake of innovation, disregarding whether or not it is actually an improvment?

Many people feel that Platium is the best UI and any change is a step backward. Again, I'm not agreeing necessarily, but some feel that way.

-'tooth

Originally posted by cacarr1:
I wonder if people get that same feeling seeing the 'Dell' logo for example as I do when I see the Apple logo. I can't really explain, or pinpoint the moment it began, but...let me put it this way, I actually take pictures of my computer setup to show to friends living elsewhere. How many PC users do you know doing that? Anyway, well put SillyMonk.

Looking at a Dell logo is like hearing fingernails on a blackboard. Eeh.

I have to work witn a Windows computer, and I've tweaked the UI as much as I can - found nice desktop pictures and the like, adjusted the colors of all the windows and widgets . . . and it's still mildly repellent. It just isn't ... _wholesome_. And then I come home and sit at the G4 and once again I'm sucked into the seductive balance and beauty of a Mac.

------------------
Marienbad
http://www.appassionato.org

[Nonsuch]

All Mac-lovers--myself included--have a little nugget of irrationality at the core of their being. I don't use irrational as a synonym for stupid; I mean the things we value about the Mac are ultimately not about the specs. When Apples were hands-down the fastest desktop computers around, it was cool to be able to brag about that; but that's not what makes Mac people enthusiastic.

It's about the thousand intangible pleasures of Mac ownership. The deep, resonant chord that rings out everytime you power up (I still love hearing it). The elegant styling of my G4 tower. The indefineable sense that the interface was designed by and for real, creative people. The Mac feels right. I was a Windows user for many years, and thought it was fine, more or less. Then I used a Mac, and it hit me: this is what working at a computer should feel like.

This, BTW, is why the (relatively) few PC users who hate Mac users really hate Mac users. For those who like to build their own boxes, who look on their computers as assemblages of parts, this attitude smacks of childishness, stupidity, smugness. And yet we won't shut up. We insist that our computers are better, even if our processors are slower or our video cards aren't as good. Small wonder the poor things need to flame us.

It's nice to take a moment to stop worrying about Apple losing money or market share, or Motorola making faster chips or whatever, and reflect on just what makes the Mac user community the best "place" to be. Thanks for posting.

[Jamie_H]

I would never use anything else. I definitely am a Mac fan. I have been using macs since they first came out, the year I was born.

Although I didn't use them for a few years :-)

[johnnylundy]

Originally posted by Nonsuch:
All Mac-lovers--myself included--have a little nugget of irrationality at the core of their being. I don't use irrational as a synonym for stupid; I mean the things we value about the Mac are ultimately not about the specs.

I've been using and programming computers since 1965. Long all-nighters in the computer lab, getting to the guts of the OS's, understanding how hardware and software works. There is nothing new today in the basic design of a computer that wasn't there in the old mainframe days except bloatware.

In those days, the one thing everyone wanted was their own computer - so as not to have to share it with others or wait for time to use it or pay for time on it.

The genius Steve Wozniak made this dream come true with his brilliant design of the Apple I and Apple II. Visicalc, the first spreadsheet, made businesses stop and see the value in a desktop computer. And they bought them.

Then IBM decided to grab a piece of Woz's pie - not by innovating, but by using the IBM name established in its mainframe business.

Bill Gates, who ranted and bitched when others copied his silly BASIC interpreter, had no innovative skills then and still doesn't. He bought QD-DOS from a Seattle company and sold it to IBM for their desktop computer since they couldn't come up with an OS themselves like Woz had done.

In the single most telling action of the last 20 years, Gates insisted that he still have the right to sell DOS himself. And so "MS-DOS" was born.

Businesses began buying IBM, not because it was better but because of the name.

IBM failed to protect their machine from reverse-engineering, and thus Phoenix Technologies was able to clone the BIOS. Thus every Tom Dick and Harry could make a PC Clone, and Gates was more than happy to sell them his crummy little DOS.

My point? Apple started it and they need the credit. I will only use Apple computers as long as they are available.

In 1982 I went with my college buddy to Xerox PARC where he was working. I saw the Xerox Star with my own eyes. Xerox wasn't thinking about selling this bitmapped system.

The legends at Apple (including the genius Bill Atkinson) convinced Steve Jobs to go and see it. He knew, just like he knew that the Apple II would sell and the iMac would sell, that this is what a computer should be.

Thus the Lisa and the Macintosh.

As usual, Gates couldn't stand not having thought of it first and proceeded to make a copy. The copy blew chunks until 1993 when it finally ran. In the meantime, the PC users were dissing the Mac system as a "toy" - until they got Windows and then all of a sudden it's an "innovation".

Apple innovates, Wintel copies and spins the truth. Screw 'em. All Michael Dell ever did was sell cheapo slapped-together clones out of the trunk of his car.

That's why I'm an Apple user.

[Cipher13]

Johnny, well said dude, well said.

Cipher13

So what makes a Mac person? Once, I would have said "A love of innovation" or "A desire to participate in the evolution of something better". More and more often, I find myself answering, simply, "Whining".

I think it's both. I think there's a duality principle in many aspects of life. The yin and the yang if you will. Some of those whiners are the same as the people who like change, or think they do (but only just *this* kind of change, NOT *that* kind of change)...

I think the whiners are primarily people who see all the trees, are lost, and are not even aware they are in an actual forest.

But I still think the really creative people love Macs, I really feel that way, and those people are likely to at least be open-minded about change if not excited or positive about it. They are willing to give OS X a chance, maybe watch of the sidellines if not dive in feet first.

I think Mac people are just people. Of all sorts. But there is one thing in common among all of them, they share the same fate as Apple computer.

For if a true Mac person was *forced* to use Windows, knowing that the Mac was no longer being developed for, they'd feel like they lost their only child...

Apple innovates, Wintel copies and spins the truth. Screw 'em. All Michael Dell ever did was sell cheapo slapped-together clones out of the trunk of his car.

That's why I'm an Apple user.

Wow, very poignant, has punch, is true, and is a thing of beauty.

Color me impressed Johnny!

[johnnylundy]

Originally posted by Twilightmoon:
Wow, very poignant, has punch, is true, and is a thing of beauty.

Color me impressed Johnny!

Thanks.

You know the top two things that aggravate me about the Mac vs Wintel situation?

1. "Information Technology" departments - we are all held hostage now to these bozos. How many times have you been told "we don't support Macs"? What they really mean is "Wintel keeps our jobs and plus, despite our proclaimed "computer expertise", all we know how to do is click buttons in ONE operating system's control panels, and we never used or studied a Macintosh or know the history or theory of computing."

2. Newbies who walk up to your Mac and say "that looks just like Windows." - When I hear that I have the urge to smash in their face while screaming, "read the history of microcomputers, you freaking clueless lemming!"

[Chaaaosss]

I use a Mac because they consider the details.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by johnnylundy:
Thanks.

You know the top two things that aggravate me about the Mac vs Wintel situation?

1. "Information Technology" departments - we are all held hostage now to these bozos. How many times have you been told "we don't support Macs"? What they really mean is "Wintel keeps our jobs and plus, despite our proclaimed "computer expertise", all we know how to do is click buttons in ONE operating system's control panels, and we never used or studied a Macintosh or know the history or theory of computing."

2. Newbies who walk up to your Mac and say "that looks just like Windows." - When I hear that I have the urge to smash in their face while screaming, "read the history of microcomputers, you freaking clueless lemming!"

Hehehe, I know whatcha mean dude.
Now, I am able to just clench my jaw, roll my eyes, and walk away.
Its not as satisfying, but then again, laziness is such a wonderful thing sometimes...

Cipher13

[boticario]

My first computer was an Apple Classic. Then i bought a PC because i thought being a windows user would make my "computer experience" easier. I was wrong.

Then i saw Mac OS X beta last november at Macworld Expo in Madrid (part of SIMO TCI Expo) and last december i bought an Apple Cube 450, and pre-ordered the Mac OS X the first day that was available.

That's my experience. The new OS made me return.

[This message has been edited by boticario (edited 03-18-2001).]

[typoon]

Someone said in a previous post that Apple Doesn't just Have users but Fans, I think it is more like Advocates and Evangelists. ONce thing you notice about Mac users like myself is that we "LOVE" our Macs. you would never here a Wintel user say that about there computer. Not even a DELL or some Cheapy Home Made Computer. Mac Users love everything about there Macs even though at times the company and the OS may have some short comings. We Love our is Macs because we use them to get things done not just to do work. Mac Users love there Macs to the point of becoming Zealots, or Fanatics. I read somewhere on someones website "Being a Mac user is like being a Navy SEAL: a small, elite group of people with access to the most sophisticated technology in the world, who everyone calls on to get the really tough jobs done quickly and efficiently." How true this statement is.
Now that Apple is on the cusp of a New Era with Mac OS X the Mac and it's fatihful should be even more proud to say that they are Mac users and Damn Proud of it. No Mac Users should ever be ashamed to tell anyone they are a Mac user. If people make fun of you because you are a Mac use just remember that they are the ignorant ones and must be educated. Know your Facts and you will be able to defend against any attack, Possibly make some attacks of your own. Keep loving your Mac!!!!