[beseku]

Hi,

I am a new Mac owener, having slowly grown tired of Windows PCs while falling in love with the Apple design ethos for a few years. After owning an iPod since the release of the 4G, I recently took the plunge and bought a PB 12", (base model).

The machine is gorgeous and the process of getting sorted from my windows machine was (mainly) painless thanks to my iPod able to carry everything accross easily.

However, it has hard crashed about five or six times now, twice recently when waking from a locked screensaver. Really, comparing this to my Win 2k machine at work which hasn't yet hard crashed, I am a tad dissapointed to say the least, given the high praise the OS gets.

As I am new to Mac OS X I have fiddled around a bit and installed/uninstalled a fair few apps, and I also use a few beta apps, (CocoaSQL and CocoaView that I can think of). It also only has 256 MB RAM, (getting a 512MB stick after christmas.

Have I just been unlucky or am I doing something wrong? Now I know more about the OS and what apps to use, should I do a fresh system install? I really love the OS apart from the stability issues, and would hate to see it ruined by falling over every 5 days.

Thanks for the help and great forum.

(PB 12" 1.33GHZ, 256MB Ram, Panther with all updates).

[SEkker]

Not sure what 'hard crashed' means, but I have not had 5 full crashes (machine locks up and/or kernel panics) total in nearly 2 years running OS X. And most of those were with a bad os update by Apple when I plugged my machine into a USB hub.

Sometimes an application gets cranky, and in the end I do a reboot. I tend to reboot once a week, whether it needs it or not...! Normally, I only put the machine to sleep when not in use.

I'd consider an archive and install, and run the Apple hardware CD tester. That's not a very smart application, so it may still have a major hardware problem even if it tests ok with that program.

Finally, you'll want more memory for that machine to get the most out of your purchase. For 12" models, get either a 512 MB RAM stick, or even better a 1 gig stick.

[Randman]

Hmm, sounds like it could be a case of operator error more than the OS. I've not had 5 kernal panics/crashes since around 10.1.

1, you need more ram. 2, describe the process of installing (and especially uninstalling) apps. Maybe something went fubar in this process.
Finally, the setup could be wonky as it sounds as if you come from a strong windows background and the processes and troubleshooting are quite different.

[flanders]

I have to agree that five crashes is excessive...the last time I had a situation like that was a new powerbook with a faulty stick of memory (the single 256mb stick that comes with it; there was no extra memory). I had called applecare, which had me take it to the store for testing and subsequently apple just handed over a new powerbook from the back and I went on my way. I'd really suspect a hardware issue, and memory could be the key here as well. Let us know how you do and what the issue is when you find it.

[cambro]

If your hardware is in good shape, OS X just doesn't crash. Period. If you are having frequent kernel panics, you have either hacked at the system level, have bad ram, or you've got some other insidious, unlucky hardware problem.

I have been running OS X 24/7 since 10.0.0 on multiple macs and have exactly 3 kernel panics....2 in 10.0 days and 1 in 10.3 due to a thrid party USB hack that was unnessary. I run a 24/7 desktop that acts as a webserver and powerbook.

Suggestions:

Reinstall your system.
If you still have kernel panics, remove any third party RAM.
If this doesn't work, you have a hardware problem.

[Ryan1524]

sounds like a hardware error, ram defect, or permissions problem. try what people have suggested here. what you're experiencing is really uncommon.

[chris v]

My Powerbook has kernel paniced twice in 9 months. I usually get 20-30 days uptime, and recently had an 81 day run. The OS can be extremely stable, so something is probably amiss. I will just about always run a clean install of the OS on a new machine when I get one, just to verify that the process happenned to my liking, and also to save some space-- the OS ships with about 1.5 gigs of extra language packages and printer drivers, so you can save a significant amount of drive space by tailoring your install, too.

Apple definitely doesn't ship their systems with enough RAM. 512 is a minimum, and 768 is the least I would really want to operate a system with, but you seem to have that under control.

Also, I'd recommend purchasing DiskWarrior as a good preventative maintenence tool. It will cure several types of directory corruption that Apple's bundled Disk Utility will not.

[ebuddy]

I've had 2 kernal panics in 3 years on Tibook and one on duallie G5. Always, Always, Always RAM related. at least in my case. Run hardware test as recommended elsewhere. This always pointed to RAM, replaced with RAM purchased at crucial.com and voila!

[Dog Like Nature]

I agree that you're almost certainly (99.9%) experiencing intermittent hardware failure. It's most likely to be bad RAM.

Take your PB in to your local Apple Store and get them to check it. Have you tried the Hardware test?

[hldan]

Originally posted by beseku:
Hi,

I am a new Mac owener, having slowly grown tired of Windows PCs while falling in love with the Apple design ethos for a few years. After owning an iPod since the release of the 4G, I recently took the plunge and bought a PB 12", (base model).

The machine is gorgeous and the process of getting sorted from my windows machine was (mainly) painless thanks to my iPod able to carry everything accross easily.

However, it has hard crashed about five or six times now, twice recently when waking from a locked screensaver. Really, comparing this to my Win 2k machine at work which hasn't yet hard crashed, I am a tad dissapointed to say the least, given the high praise the OS gets.

As I am new to Mac OS X I have fiddled around a bit and installed/uninstalled a fair few apps, and I also use a few beta apps, (CocoaSQL and CocoaView that I can think of). It also only has 256 MB RAM, (getting a 512MB stick after christmas.

Have I just been unlucky or am I doing something wrong? Now I know more about the OS and what apps to use, should I do a fresh system install? I really love the OS apart from the stability issues, and would hate to see it ruined by falling over every 5 days.

Thanks for the help and great forum.

(PB 12" 1.33GHZ, 256MB Ram, Panther with all updates).

I'll add one thing, sometimes you will get a new computer with a bad image of the OS installed on the HD from the factory. I have had 2 brand new Macs in the past with a bad OS install from the factory which resulted in crashes and sometimes not starting up.
I immediately shoved in the restore software and completely erased and installed a fresh Mac OSX copy and all was well.
Now each time I buy a new Mac I generally perfom this task as factory image installs can be faulty.
I recommend you trying this first and this should correct your issue. If not then most likely you have bad ram.
One thing to note, people tend to have unrealistic expectations of Macs by painting them as living perfection due to their asthetics and people tend to be shocked when there's a slight flaw and although the OSX system is still the best out there keep in mind that Macs are still "computers" and they can have small flaws like any other form of electronics.

[mrmister]

"It also only has 256 MB RAM"

You also need to rectify this ASAP--it's really just too little for OS X to be any fun.

[hldan]

Originally posted by mrmister:
"It also only has 256 MB RAM"

You also need to rectify this ASAP--it's really just too little for OS X to be any fun.

Small amounts of ram do not contribute to system crashes, it only makes the computing experience slower.

[sodamnregistered2]

FWIW, I always do a fresh install of the OS, whether it's a PC or a Mac.

[geekwagon]

I've also noticed that all the various AL Powerbooks that I have owned have a tendency to crash on wake if they get zapped by static electricity while asleep.

Also, the wake period is very vulnerable especially to bad kernel extensions (generally things that support new hardware.) For example, I have a driver that supports a USB WiFi dongle (why doesn't airport support WEP key indexes?!?!) and if I insert/remove the adapter too close to waking, instant kernel panic.

[CincyGamer]

the only time I can get crashes are when I try to burn a obviously scratched CD in iTunes. But have not gotten any random crashes besides forgetting to plug in my laptop and it running out of juice while playing a game full screen.

Its the hardware, you need to take it in. I am running new Tiger seeds and even that has not crashed once on me and that is build 323.

Cheers!

[PowerBookOwner]

Originally posted by geekwagon:
I've also noticed that all the various AL Powerbooks that I have owned have a tendency to crash on wake if they get zapped by static electricity while asleep.

Also, the wake period is very vulnerable especially to bad kernel extensions (generally things that support new hardware.) For example, I have a driver that supports a USB WiFi dongle (why doesn't airport support WEP key indexes?!?!) and if I insert/remove the adapter too close to waking, instant kernel panic.

WEP key indexes? What are you trying to connect to that the Airport card does not?

Please elaborate.

[bookofjames]

hope this has been mentioned already, but just want to re-emphasize on it:

try doing permissions repair (look in Disk Utility).

[Mastrap]

When I got my 12" I experienced regular kernel panics. In my case it turned out to be a no properly seated airport card. I re-seated it and all has been well ever since.

[USNA91]

The crashes I've experienced have been hangups on individual programs, not the system itself. Most of those were in Microsoft Office, and one in Photoshop Elements.

The system itself has been extremely stable, and I've had to reboot only once due to the system. The other times it was because the application, even when force-quitted, still wouldn't work. Rebooting fixed it every time.

As I learn more about Mac, the more I get used to it, the better it gets, but I'm still pretty down on the screen resolution, but that's been beat to death in another thread...

[nagromme]

That's excessive. I've had maybe one or two crashes in over a year of very heavy and varied use with my PowerBook. You could have a bad RAM chip or other hardware defect in need of warranty service. It could be software--reinstalling isn't a bad test, and Apple might demand it before performing service--but OS X is pretty hard to mess up in my experience. The hardware test CD is a good thing to use also.

BTW, once you're running with 768 RAM or better, you'll notice a BIG difference in speed! Far fewer little hesitations and waits.

[lngtones]

Be sure to check the Airport card if you have one as well. My airport card was not inserted all the way in and I was getting kernel panics often.

[wuzup101]

Originally posted by geekwagon:
I've also noticed that all the various AL Powerbooks that I have owned have a tendency to crash on wake if they get zapped by static electricity while asleep.

Also, the wake period is very vulnerable especially to bad kernel extensions (generally things that support new hardware.) For example, I have a driver that supports a USB WiFi dongle (why doesn't airport support WEP key indexes?!?!) and if I insert/remove the adapter too close to waking, instant kernel panic.

Airport does support WEP encripted WiFi systems, I personally use one up at school. I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about, but I hope that you didn't buy a seperate WiFi card just to use a WEP network...

[siflippant]

With just the one post since this thread started (and no reply by beseku), does anyone else smell a troll? It's amazing how often peecee users feel the need to come into Mac forums and "spread the word" as to how bad the whole Mac experience is without actually owning one (or pretending they have done)...

Just take a look at some of the user reviews on Cnet and other sites... I understand that we look at the whole picture, but unfortunately there are still people out there who just want to hate Apple and Macs for the sake of it... there's one guy at work where I am who is exactly this way... I brought my powerbook in to show 10.3 and how easy it was to burn a playlist/use an iPod etc (as so many people wanted one this year) and he was the only one who didn't come over to have a look... Someone else asked him "hey! Come and have a look! This is great... what an OS!" - only for him to say "no, I have no need... everyone knows Macs are crap" etc etc... Putting up is hand to his face so as to not catch a glimpse as to what was going on... what a pr1ck...

Sorry for the rant guys, I just feel at times Apple is still fighting an uphill battle as far as positive PR goes... but with iPod and the "Halo Effect" I'm sure they will get there in the end... just kinda annoys me that's all...

Hope you had a GREAT xmas and a happy new year!

[CincyGamer]

I had a similiar experience when I got my TiBook.. The DBA came over and was excitied and asked what kind of CPU that has. I said a G4 and its an apple and he literally walked away.

Just take it with a grain of salt. Keep planting the seeds. Other people I know are buying apple hardware now after seeing how happy I am with mine.

[USNA91]

You guys ain't kidding....

I switched from PC to Mac about six weeks ago, and some of the harshest comments I have ever had directed my way in my life have been from PC users responding to my "defection", "stupidity", and "ease of falling for hype over function". I'll refrain from posting the REALLY ugly comments.

I say screw 'em. They are responding no differently than someone who is jealous over someone else's purchase of something they secretly wish they had.

So far, I ain't NEVER going back to PC. I'm even using my PB at work!

[alphasubzero949]

In my lab, the students think that they're seeing the same Macs from the days of rainbow Apple logos. If a program goes into the SBOD (running various flavors of 10.3.x), they'll reboot the whole freaking machine instead of killing the offending app. When I go over to show them, 90% of the time they'll utter something to the effect of "On a PC I just do........."

[Kurt23]

Originally posted by USNA91:
You guys ain't kidding....

I switched from PC to Mac about six weeks ago, and some of the harshest comments I have ever had directed my way in my life have been from PC users responding to my "defection", "stupidity", and "ease of falling for hype over function". I'll refrain from posting the REALLY ugly comments.

I say screw 'em. They are responding no differently than someone who is jealous over someone else's purchase of something they secretly wish they had.

So far, I ain't NEVER going back to PC. I'm even using my PB at work!

I sorta switched myself too. I still use my PC but just got a new Powerbook. And I must say that it is all its cracked up to be. OSX is great, not one crash yet, no pop-ups, quick startup and shutdown, great battery life. I love it and am so happy with my investment. I will still use PCs (like for work) but at home I think I am a MAC user for life.

I am not sure why PC users get so upset or hostile about this whole MAC/PC thing. I think to each their own. But having actually used a MAC and PC, I think I can honestly say that I think my switch was wise.

[Phossil]

I used to be one of those PC users who mad fun of apple users for being stupid and for wasting their money because the only apple OS's I had ever tried were OS 9 and 10.0. 10.0 was slow and unstable, and the less said about OS 9 the better. I eventully realized the shortcomings of Windows when I had to re-format every six months to get decent speed out of my computer (for those of you who don't know, Windows has a half-life of about 6 months) and I moved to Linux.

I still run a Linux machine but I decided to get a mac after trying OS 10.3 and loving it. I get all the best of both worlds - open source Linux and Unix software as well as Commercial software. I am currently a student and my I have a 12" iBook with plans to upgrade to the new Powerbook when it comes out, and a Dual booting Debian/Windows 2Ghz P4 Lappy - which I almost never boot into windows.

What was the purpose of this story? Don't give up on the windows users - they can be turned from the darkside.

[beseku]

I apologise.

I visited my folks this Christmas and used their wireless network to connect to the 'net, absolute flawless performance from my PB I every way. This indicated that the USB modem was at fault.

This was proved correct when i came home, as the laptop started crashing on waking form sleep/login every time it was connected to the modem: the solution, my order of a wireless modem/router on dabs.com.

Problem solved, and after a Christmas holiday sans Windows, I have hated coming back to it at work!

Thanks for all the help and advice.

[Guy Kuo]

There have been other threads on the WEP key limitation with Mac. In a nutshell, the WEP key used in a wireless system is associated with one of four key slots. both the WEP key and keyslot number must match to communicate with a network. On all PC's you can specify which slot number is in use. On a Mac, using Airport or Airport Extreme cards, the key is automatically assumed to be associated to slot #1. That means you can't connect to a WEP encrypted network that was configured to be in slot 2, 3 or 4. A 3rd party (non-Apple) USB WiFi dongle is one of the few ways to work around this Apple limitation. And yes, there are such networks around. If you try to connect using Airport and enter the correct WEP password, you see the wireless signal strength indicator go on, but no data actually gets passed. Apple is the only vendor that doesn't support selection of WEP key slots.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Kurt23:
I am not sure why PC users get so upset or hostile about this whole MAC/PC thing. I think to each their own. But having actually used a MAC and PC, I think I can honestly say that I think my switch was wise.

psst...it's "Mac", not "MAC".

Welcome to MACintosh.

[iMacfan]

Beseku:

If you are talking about a USB broadband modem, forget it. Getting a modem/router (wired or wireless) will be the best thing you could do, and well worth the money. I was given a USB broadband modem when I connected, and it really is a piece of crap - constantly causing crashes, and even if it did not crash, it caused disturbances in the display, which I never figured out.

David

[paully dub]

Originally posted by iMacfan:
Beseku:

If you are talking about a USB broadband modem, forget it. Getting a modem/router (wired or wireless) will be the best thing you could do, and well worth the money. I was given a USB broadband modem when I connected, and it really is a piece of crap - constantly causing crashes, and even if it did not crash, it caused disturbances in the display, which I never figured out.

David

Same here, had an awful experinece with an USB modem. Kernel panics galore. I even, silly me, went an installed the software provided. Erased all my bookmarks, changed all my preferances, and was hugely bloated.

[siflippant]

Originally posted by Phossil:
10.0 was slow and unstable, and the less said about OS 9 the better.

With 10.3, OS X finally matured (although I am sure there are many more great things that can be achieved with this OS as Apple and it's developers push for perfection) - but 9 was a great OS too... I would still use OS9 over XP... but hey, that's me...



Happy New Year all... (better late than never)

[UnixMac]

1) Archive an Install
2) get more RAM
3) download Onyx (free download at version tracker) and use it weekly.

Take two aspirin and call me in the morning...

[PoisonTooth]

I don't get the whole zealotry thing.

I'm typing this on my 12" PowerBook. In my home office sits a Boxx Athlon FX-53 workstation, rigged with all high-end kit, running XP SP2.

I use both machines. I've considered getting a dual G5 in place of the Boxx, but I don't see any reason to. The XP machine has never once had a virus, BSOD, or instance of spyware. Likewise, my PowerBook has never KPed or otherwise acted flaky.

Best of both worlds, if you ask me.

My .02.

[wuzup101]

Originally posted by PoisonTooth:
I don't get the whole zealotry thing.

I'm typing this on my 12" PowerBook. In my home office sits a Boxx Athlon FX-53 workstation, rigged with all high-end kit, running XP SP2.

I use both machines. I've considered getting a dual G5 in place of the Boxx, but I don't see any reason to. The XP machine has never once had a virus, BSOD, or instance of spyware. Likewise, my PowerBook has never KPed or otherwise acted flaky.

Best of both worlds, if you ask me.

My .02.

Are you talking about a home build PC. I know my home build PC was a hell of a lot more stable than my friends' Dells and the like. The powerbook has proved even more stable and reliable though. I still use PCs when I have to, and I plan to take my PC back up to school with me when I leave on saturday. However, I'd much rather work in OSX than windows XP. It's just easier to use. I was pretty into windows too (much more than the usual user). But yeah, with the right programs, you never get popups or spyware, and you can control viruses (much more of a big deal to me being on a college network w/ 40,000 other students + professors and all the lab computers sending stuff around).

I agree though, on a home built box XP isn't that bad. Trying using a lower end dell for a month and it will drive you nuts.

[wiffmaster]

I've used high end Dells all my life, and to be fair, they have been fantastic. XP is a lot more stable than people make out actually.

The main reason i'm buying a Powerbook is that i'm fed up with system resources been hogged by antivirus programmes and the like. My Dell desktop runs flawlessly, but that is only because I spend more time maintaining it than I do using it. It seems that Mac are much more 'maintainance free', you just get on with doing whatever, and you don't worry about viruses and spyware.

I will still be using both XP and OS X for the time being, but if I get along with OS X, maybe my next desktop will be a dual G5.

Now to wait for the Powerbook updates............hopefully on Jan 11th!

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by wiffmaster:
I've used high end Dells all my life, and to be fair, they have been fantastic. XP is a lot more stable than people make out actually.

The main reason i'm buying a Powerbook is that i'm fed up with system resources been hogged by antivirus programmes and the like. My Dell desktop runs flawlessly, but that is only because I spend more time maintaining it than I do using it. It seems that Mac are much more 'maintainance free', you just get on with doing whatever, and you don't worry about viruses and spyware.

I will still be using both XP and OS X for the time being, but if I get along with OS X, maybe my next desktop will be a dual G5.

Now to wait for the Powerbook updates............hopefully on Jan 11th!

I too was quite content with my IBM Aptiva P4 and it's XP too, but once you switch to OS X, you really can't go back.. It's like driving a BMW 540, then having to return to a Chevy Malibu...

[wuzup101]

I have to say that all the lower end laptop and desktop dells that I've come into contact with have had wierd problems. Not all the time or anything. But for instance, one of my best friends has a inspiron 5100. It works fairly well all the time. However, if you try to do something fairly intensive (on his computer that's like opening 3 programs at one time). The system freezes for a little while. It also has a bad problem with randomly rebooting (not while you're doing anything... though it does that too). Ex-gf had similar issues on her 2400 dell desktop. Once had to actually run Knopix (live linux) on it to repair an NTFS structure that kept giving her the BSOD.

I never had these problems with my PC. However it was a fairly stacked home build. The higher end dells are quite nice though (like the XPS systems). I mean I don't know everyone that owns a dell, and I don't pretend to. I do know quite a few people that own them... and quite a few people that own other machines (IBM, Toshiba, Fugi, etc...) and they seem to have a bit less software/hardware problems/conflicts. I did have some problems with my PC, and they did manage to wipe it out for days. I got some type of virus through the network at school which wiped out windows explorer (which ment no start menu/task bar). Ironically I always ran a firewall + norton corporate edition set to update every morning and do a full system scan.

[davidlow]

I'm an OS X user and an OS X lover. But I did have a lot of years using Windoze, and I'd like to point out that all these mysterious, unconfirmable causes of OS X system crashes are the same mysterious, unconfirmable causes that have been responsible for Windoze system crashes for many years. The solutions prescribed for these OS X problems are also the same as those given for Windoze, and to me it's very dissappointing.

My PB 12" crashes AT LEAST twice a month (Please don't advise any fixes or request more details. That's really not my point) and I can see I'm not the only one with this recurring problem ("crash" = kernel panic, by the way).

Apple should TARGET this situation. I switched to Mac originally because of the inherent instability of Windoze, and have since found many other wonderful reasons to never go back. It's a good thing I found all those other reasons, too, because if stability were the only factor then I would switch back to Windows tomorrow.

When a Windows machine crashes, Microsoft would like users to think it's their own fault somehow. But we know better. We're OS X users. So let's not fall into the same Windoze trap when discussing our shining alternative OS. When so many people are having the same problem it can't just be their own fault. Something is wrong here that needs to be addressed by Apple. If your particular configuration of MAC/OS X doesn't crash, that's great. But don't forget that the problem is actually in the aggregate numbers.

If someone is having kernel panics that they can't easily explain then THEIR PROBLEM AFFECTS YOU. If that's not obvious, consider this crude analogy: If your girlfriend has a history of cheating on other men, but hasn't cheated on you, do you feel (A) Special, (B) Lucky or (C) Worried ?

Does anyone else agree with my position here? Is my reasoning flawed somehow?

-davidlow

[UnixMac]

davidlow


I agree with much of what you say... I admit that OS X is not as stable as it "Should" be.. being a Unix, it should be almost uncrashable, however I think the vast majority of problems are a result of 3rd party software and in some cases hardware that is poorly tested and engineered.

I think this is proven my the fact that my mother's Mac, first she had a G4 500mhz that I gave her, and now her iMacG5 which has basically no 3rd party software as she's just a safari/mail/iphoto user has never crashed to my knowledge. She lives out in the SF Bay area 600 miles from me, and I have never even done so much as a repair permissions on her machine. Its rock solid. Her prior Windows XP machine used to have lock up/freeze problem all the time and that is why we ditched it back in '01.

On the other hand, between my Dual G5, and my PB G4, I get system freezed about an average of once per month, but they have all been traced so far to either my HP printer/scanner, or freeware that I download and "beta" test for their developers, etc..

Fact is, the Mac, with OS X is as good as it's going to get in below $10000 price range for stability.

I have been pretty militant about using Onyx (read the current Macworld) and DiskWarrior about every week, and thus far have had no problems..

BUT.. APPLE should keep a close eye on the stability issues, and address them where their software developers fail.. they cannot depend on the software developers to have the same R&D budget as they have, and therefore need to make OS X bullet proof from the inside, so that even the worse programmer cannot bring down the entire system with a lousy app.

rant/end