[saddino]

Originally posted by budster101:
You missed my point. He refused the money?

And you missed my point. He refused the money because any decent person would refuse any amount of money to go against their spouse's wishes. You wouldn't do it, I wouldn't do it, and neither would he.

He's a scumbag

Aha. I believe that is your actual "point."

So instead of arguing the merits of the case, the legality of the circumstances, the findings of the courts, the interesting political motivations, the philosophical questions of life and death, you (and Cody, and Y3a) would rather just libel, curse and malign this man who you know nothing about.

How "compassionate" of you.

[budster101]

Originally posted by saddino:
And you missed my point. He refused the money because any decent person would refuse any amount of money to go against their spouse's wishes. You wouldn't do it, I wouldn't do it, and neither would he.



Aha. I believe that is your actual "point."

So instead of arguing the merits of the case, the legality of the circumstances, the findings of the courts, the interesting political motivations, the philosophical questions of life and death, you (and Cody, and Y3a) would rather just libel, curse and malign this man who you know nothing about.

How "compassionate" of you.

I would never ask "When is this bitch going to die" when referring to anyone, especially my own wife! This is not rumor. The SCUMBAG said it.

[saddino]

Originally posted by budster101:
This is not rumor.

Correct, this is hearsay.

The SCUMBAG said it.

Yes, yes. I do believe you believe that.

[His Dudeness]

Originally posted by saddino:
And you missed my point. He refused the money because any decent person would refuse any amount of money to go against their spouse's wishes. You wouldn't do it, I wouldn't do it, and neither would he.



Aha. I believe that is your actual "point."

So instead of arguing the merits of the case, the legality of the circumstances, the findings of the courts, the interesting political motivations, the philosophical questions of life and death, you (and Cody, and Y3a) would rather just libel, curse and malign this man who you know nothing about.

How "compassionate" of you.

Compassion? Doing the compassionate thing would be to give a living human being food and water. You know, the same stuff we give convicted rapists and sodomists and murderers and traitors...

[zigzag]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Ordinary probate cases don't involve the state killing the "decedent." That's a bit of a distinction between this case, and the probate of an estate, don't you think?

The point is that the presence of this case before the state probate court is normal and ordinary under existing Florida law. It's their job to make life-and-death decisions under existing Florida law, and Judge Greer did so in complete accordance with Florida law. If you don't think it should be their job, just say so. That's what I've been trying to get you to do for ten pages: admit that you just don't like the way Florida law operates. Instead, you've been going in circles about how the case turned on Michael Schiavo's testimony (wrong), how there was no guardian ad litem (wrong), how the appellate reviews were limited to matters of law (wrong), and so forth. Now you're saying that you don't even have an obligation to read the trial opinion and that a federal retrial would be proper even in the absence of error, which would render 5 years of state adjudication moot and amount to a radical reworking of our judicial system. I wish you had simply conceded from the start that you don't think Florida law is adequate, which is what I said you were effectively saying.

Sadly, this thread continues to be filled with misinformation about the case and the court proceedings, and it doesn't look like I'm going to make a dent in it, so I'm outta here. I can't control what people think about the Schiavos, but I wish they would at least accord Judge Greer the respect he deserves for making the sort of difficult decision that grown-ups, and judges especially, are sometimes asked to make. That people want to punish him makes me ill.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by InterfaceGuy:
Hint: Google is your friend.

http://www.terrisfight.net/press/092304statement.html

Apparently at least 19 (!) different judges were of a different opinion.

The only reason for that law was not to protect Terri Schiavo's interests (after all, the case is at the courts for years now), but only because the family (and their supporters) disagree with their decisions. And that is the biggest problem about the bill passed by Congress -- it is designed to `correct' a specific decision by (several) court(s).

[Captain Obvious]

You people keep getting stupider and stupider.

You can't compare her to prisoners. Jailed convicts are wards of the state and are thus cared for better than a large portion of the general population because accountability for their welfare falls upon the government. They have better health care, a more balanced diet, and are looked in on more often than most people in the world.

This thing is cared for by its husband and he has power of attorney. He determines what happens to her. Despite what you think may be an insurmountable level of conflict of interest your opinion does not count. You are not a judge, you are not even an attorney. The courts have not determined that the conflict of interest overrides his ability to make this decision.

The process for executing a prisoner is quite lengthy and has a number or appeals and oddly enough Terri "it" Sciavo has had far more opportunities to have this decision overturned by the courts than almost all prisoners. Which again is really irrelevant because the state is not the person who is her designated caretaker. But since you keep comparing the two just note that because so far no cause to keep her alive has been found. The only thing that has happened is that they have obstructed the right for the tube to be pulled- the two things are very VERY different things.

This case is not about life or death it is about who has the right to make the choice in the absence of an advanced medical directive. Unless she gave power of attorney to someone else her husband makes this decision. The courts have not found cause to strip him of this ability and unless they do you all need to STFU.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
And I still don't see why it angers you so much for the courts to take one last look at the facts.

Will this actually be "one last look"? Cody has already shown evidence that she would not accept a federal court ruling that she did no agree with. I think if Cody feels this way, it's easy to assume that MANY others will as well.

[Cody Dawg]

EVERY single one of you who think she should die, next time you're thirsty or hungry, you think about how that poor woman - who is like a baby - feels.

She is helpless and defenseless. She is innocent. She does NOT deserve to die this way.

It is INHUMANE.







I hope that judge enjoys his next cup of water.

Tonight I am saying a prayer for her - especially the next ime I take a sip of water.

I hope all others do the same.



Thirsty? Hungry? THINK ABOUT IT.

[nredman]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
EVERY single one of you who think she should die, next time you're thirsty or hungry, you think about how that poor woman - who is like a baby - feels.

She is helpless and defenseless. She is innocent. She does NOT deserve to die this way.

It is INHUMANE.







I hope that judge enjoys his next cup of water.

Tonight I am saying a prayer for her - especially the next ime I take a sip of water.

I hope all others do the same.



Thirsty? Hungry? THINK ABOUT IT.

a doctor on the news last night said that she wouldn't know the difference. that is was a pain free way to go???

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
EVERY single one of you who think she should die, next time you're thirsty or hungry, you think about how that poor woman - who is like a baby - feels.

She is helpless and defenseless. She is innocent. She does NOT deserve to die this way.

It is INHUMANE.







I hope that judge enjoys his next cup of water.

Tonight I am saying a prayer for her - especially the next ime I take a sip of water.

I hope all others do the same.



Thirsty? Hungry? THINK ABOUT IT.

What if it is her own wish to die rather than continue to live like this? Should we force her to live like that or rather respect that decision?

[slow moe]

It is completely hearsay what Terri wanted.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
who is like a baby

Cody. People die every day. People with brains. People with babies. The babies die too. People are starving all over the world, and in America. Where's your outrage for their sakes?

PS. do you use emoticons just to make it easier to spot your own posts?

[Wiskedjak]

Even if the husband has questionable motives, what are the motives of the medical experts who've examined her to declare her to be in a permanent vegetative state? What are the motives of the judges who've agreed with these doctors and the husband on the wife's desires?

Sounds like you're describing a vast left wing conspiracy with judges and doctors willing to risk their careers with the sole intention of murdering one woman. Why would they wish to do this?

[OldManMac]

Mods, you need to lock this thread immediately, as the Almighty and Supreme Captain Obvious has issued a decree that we have to STFU!

[slow moe]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1006944/posts

Affidavit of Carla Iyer, nurse who cared for Terri Schiavo from April 1995 to July 1996

STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )

BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CARLA
SAUER IYER, R.N., who being first duly sworn, deposes and says:

1. My name is Carla Sauer Iyer. I am over the age of eighteen and make
this statement of my own personal knowledge.

2. I am a registered nurse in the State of Florida, having been licensed
continuously in Florida from 1997 to the present. Prior to that I was a
Licensed Practical Nurse for about four years.

3. I was employed at Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in
Largo, Florida from April 1995 to July 1996, while Terri Schiavo
was a patient there.

4. It was clear to me at Palm Gardens that all decisions regarding Terri
Schiavo were made by Michael Schiavo, with no allowance made for
any discussion, debate or normal professional judgment. My initial
training there consisted solely of the instruction "Do what Michael
Schiavo tells you or you will be terminated." This struck me as
extremely odd.

-1-

5. I was very disturbed by the decision making protocol, as no allowance
whatsoever was made for professional responsibility. The atmosphere
throughout the facility was dominated by Mr. Schiavo's intimidation.
Everyone there, with the exception of several people who seemed to be
close to Michael, was intimidated by him. Michael Schiavo always
had an overbearing attitude, yelling numerous times such things as
"This is my order and you're going to follow it." He is very large and
uses menacing body language, such as standing too close to you,
getting right in your face and practically shouting.

6. To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for
Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to
believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens
while I was there. I became concerned because Michael wanted
nothing done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of
motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing. Michael said again and
again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no
range of motion whatsoever, or anything else. I and a CNA named
Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway. One time I put a
wash cloth in Terri's hand to keep her fingers from curling together,

-2-

and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy.

7. Terri's medical condition was systematically distorted and
misrepresented by Michael. When I worked with her, she was alert
and oriented. Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence,
saying such things as "mommy," and "help me." "Help me" was, in
fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds
of times. Terri would try to say the word "pain" when she was in
discomfort, but it came out more like "pay." She didn't say the "n"
sound very well. During her menses she would indicate her discomfort
by saying "pay" and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal
area. Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included
pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or
moving her legs around. She would let you know when she had a
bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper
and scooted in bed on her bottom.

8. When I came into her room and said "Hi, Terri", she would always
recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way
toward me, saying "Haaaiiiii" sort of, as she did. I recognized this as a
"hi", which is very close to what it sounded like, the whole sound

-3-

being only a second or two long. When I told her humrous stories
about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle,
sometimes more a giggle or laugh. She would move her whole body,
upper and lower. Her legs would sometimes be off the bed, and need
to be repositioned. I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in
her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but
by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart.
Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri's,
someone would remove it after my shift ended. Michael always
demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in
her room with him. I documented Terri's rehab potential well,
writing whole pages about Terri's responsiveness, but they would
always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart. The reason I wrote
so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive
entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job
was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a
patients condition and their family. I upheld the Nurses Practice Act,
and if it cost me my job, I was willing to accept that.

9. Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused

-4-

on Terri's death. Michael would say "When is she going to die?,"
"Has she died yet?" and "When is that bitch gonna die?" These
statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would
make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was
talking to, as long as it was a staff member. Other statements which I
recall him making include "Can't anything be done to accelerate her
death - won't she ever die?" When she wouldn't die, Michael would
be furious. Michael was also adamant that the family should not be
given information. He made numerous statements such as "Make sure
the parents aren't contacted." I recorded Michael's statements word
for word in Terri's chart, but these entries were also deleted after the
end of my shift. Standing orders were that the family wasn't to be
contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that
said under no circumstances was her family to be called, call Michael
immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they
should know about their daughter.

10. Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI or fluid buildup in her
lungs, colds, or pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled
even, hoping that she would die. He would say something like,

-5-

"Hallelujah! You've made my day!" He would call me, as I was the
nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her
temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently
asking if she was dead yet. He would blurt out "I'm going to be rich!"
and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died,
which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among
other things.

11. When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the
door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically
be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would be
trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold
sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction,
so I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low
it was below the range where it would register an actual number
reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it. This
happened about five times on my shift, as I recall. Normally Terri's
blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet
through tube feeding. It is medically possible that Michael injected
Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting, but I don't have

-6-

any way of knowing for sure.

12. The longer I was employed at Palm Gardens the more concerned I
became about patient care, both relating to Terri Schiavo, for the
reasons I've said, and other patients, too. There was an LPN named
Carolyn Adams, known as "Andy" Adams who was a particular
concern. An unusual number of patients seemed to die on her shift,
but she was completely unconcerned, making statements such as
"They are old - let them die." I couldn't believe her attitude or the fact
that it didn't seem to attract any attention. She made many comments
about Terri being a waste of money, that she should die. She said it
was costing Michael a lot of money to keep her alive, and that he
complained about it constantly (I heard him complain about it all the
time, too.) Both Michael and Adams said that she would be worth
more to him if she were dead. I ultimately called the police relative to
this situation, and was terminated the next day. Other reasons were
cited, but I was convinced it was because of my "rocking the boat."

13. Ms. Adams was one of the people who did not seem to be intimidated
by Michael. In fact, they seemed to be very close, and Adams would
do whatever Michael told her. Michael sometimes called Adams at

-7-

night and spoke at length. I was not able to hear the content of these
phone calls, but I knew it was him talking to her because she would
tell me afterward and relay orders from him.

14. I have contacted the Schindler family because I just couldn't stand by
and let Terri die without the truth being known.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.

<signed>
CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N.

The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this 29 day of August,
2003, by CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who produced her Florida's driver's license
as identification, and who did take an oath.

<signed Patricia J. Anderson>
Notary Public

My commission expires
<Notary seal of Patricia J. Anderson>

[sideus]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
You people keep getting stupider and stupider.

You can't compare her to prisoners. Jailed convicts are wards of the state and are thus cared for better than a large portion of the general population because accountability for their welfare falls upon the government. They have better health care, a more balanced diet, and are looked in on more often than most people in the world.

This thing is cared for by its husband and he has power of attorney. He determines what happens to her. Despite what you think may be an insurmountable level of conflict of interest your opinion does not count. You are not a judge, you are not even an attorney. The courts have not determined that the conflict of interest overrides his ability to make this decision.

The process for executing a prisoner is quite lengthy and has a number or appeals and oddly enough Terri "it" Sciavo has had far more opportunities to have this decision overturned by the courts than almost all prisoners. Which again is really irrelevant because the state is not the person who is her designated caretaker. But since you keep comparing the two just note that because so far no cause to keep her alive has been found. The only thing that has happened is that they have obstructed the right for the tube to be pulled- the two things are very VERY different things.

This case is not about life or death it is about who has the right to make the choice in the absence of an advanced medical directive. Unless she gave power of attorney to someone else her husband makes this decision. The courts have not found cause to strip him of this ability and unless they do you all need to STFU.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by slow moe:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1006944/posts

Affidavit of Carla Iyer, nurse who cared for Terri Schiavo from April 1995 to July 1996

Call me crazy, but I'm more inclined to believe the medical opinion of a doctor over a nurse

[slow moe]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Call me crazy, but I'm more inclined to believe the medical opinion of a doctor over a nurse

If that's what it takes to help you sleep better at night.

[Ghoser777]

Originally posted by slow moe:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1006944/posts

Affidavit of Carla Iyer, nurse who cared for Terri Schiavo from April 1995 to July 1996

Not that I don't believe the nurse... but wouldn't a nurse need to report this type of stuff to her supervisors... and maybe even the police?

And for the record, even if he is a total evil asshole, does that actually change anything? We're surrounded by assholes, and they make shitty decisions all the time. My big beef is, are we going to sacrifice federalism by having Congress and the Presidency encroach upon the area of State's Rights because the judges in the involved cases are following the law?

[goMac]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
EVERY single one of you who think she should die, next time you're thirsty or hungry, you think about how that poor woman - who is like a baby - feels.

She is helpless and defenseless. She is innocent. She does NOT deserve to die this way.

It is INHUMANE.







I hope that judge enjoys his next cup of water.

Tonight I am saying a prayer for her - especially the next ime I take a sip of water.

I hope all others do the same.



Thirsty? Hungry? THINK ABOUT IT.

She doesn't FEEL ANYTHING. That part of her brain is gone, despite the FUD her parents put out. She is GONE.

[slow moe]

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
Not that I don't believe the nurse... but wouldn't a nurse need to report this type of stuff to her supervisors... and maybe even the police?

She contacted the police, and lost her job as a result. Did you not read the whole thing?

[slow moe]

Originally posted by goMac:
She doesn't FEEL ANYTHING. That part of her brain is gone, despite the FUD her parents put out. She is GONE.

If starvation and dehydration is painless, then I guess we can safely skip the morphine when its time for grandma to kick the bucket.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by slow moe:
She contacted the police, and lost her job as a result. Did you not read the whole thing?

I heard, from my friend's sister's husband's cousin's roommate who saw it on a website, that this nurse lost her job because she had a habit of administering wrong medications to patients and is using the Terri Schiavo case to spear-head a wrongful dismissal suit.

[OldManMac]

And I suppose this information never made it to the numerous courts that have reviewed this case, and wasn't considered?

[docbud]

I'm mainly a lurker, so what I have to say probably isn't worth diddly, but...

Four years ago my brother-in-law had a severe stroke and it ended up being locked-in syndrome. He was totally paralyzed from the nose down. Only his left eye was working. That was it.

He had talked about his wishes to never be kept alive by artificial means, but had nothing in writing.

My twin sister (the wife of my brother-in-law), knew his wishes and kept hoping for a miracle. But after 3 weeks of discussions with the neurologists and whoever, we knew it was over. And we decided to pull the plug on a Saturday. Now--even though he was paralyzed from the nose down, there was still a chance he could still breathe on his own as the ventilator was only working "part time." If he pulled through, we'd face having him have surgery to have feeding tues, and some sort of ventilator, and life lying in a bed for the rest of his life, with no way to communicate (except one eye that worked). I don't remember the specifics.

Anyway--We set it for a Saturday morning and I had to pick up my sister and bring her to the hospital. I kept the car in 2nd gear the entire way and I think I took every side street I could find to prolong it.

It took about 6 hours for him to gasp his last breath. And though I still occasionally dream about that day, I know we did the right thing. And we honored his wishes. And I miss him so much. He was my brother-in-law and my best friend. And there was about a dozen of his closest friends around his bed when he passed.

I do wonder about those who are so adamant about saving Terry--have you ever visited someone in a vegetative state? Been there when someone died and held their hand? Looked into their eyes? Imagine yourself in their place?


Before the locked-in syndrome kicked in, he had lost a lot of feeling in his body and could only grunt. But I could see the terror in his eyes of him being like that. And towards the end, I truly believe that when he looked at me with that one open eye, he was pleading to me to keep my promise.

I realize that his condition was different than Terry's, but as someone who's gone through a thing like this, I believe that she wouldn't want to live like this.

doc

[lurkalot]

The several files attached to this July 12, 2004 Order to Correct and Supplement the Record in the case before the Supreme Court of the State of Florida -on the first "Terri's law" challenge- are required reading for anyone who still thinks that an affidavit from either a doctor or a nurse is the truth because they say so in front of a notary public.
The order itself is not that important and neither is the reason why the case ended before the Supreme Court of Florida. The reason for posting this order is for the collection of files attached that "should" dispel some of the more pervasive myths.

The attached files are mostly older orders from the trial court. The court reviewed the statements from these people and ruled on them. Their claims were found to be inconsistent with other evidence. Just repeating their unsubstantiated claims -particularly those made by Carla Sauer Iyer- because Terrisfight.org keeps posting them without the context and details surrounding the episodes described or subsequent well founded court action on these items makes all of you deceived. You are repeating lies that were debunked years ago. Is it really that hard to read the friggin record and put things in proper sequence before commenting?

July 12, 2004 Order to Correct and Supplement the Record: PDF

[Ghoser777]

Originally posted by slow moe:
She contacted the police, and lost her job as a result. Did you not read the whole thing?

Nope, didn't see that, sorry.

[OldManMac]

What appears to be a very detailed web site on the Schiavo case.

[simonjames]

Ah, society is majorly screwed when it allows a brain dead body to starve to death when it could very easily administer a lethal dose to quickly end the autonomous muscles keeping the body alive.

No - instead the health and legal officials will wait until the body shuts itself down organ by organ. We wouldn't treat a dog like this - why do we do this to the vessel that used to carry a person?

Leaving the body to waste away is wrong

Its not efficient.

Its not fair to the person's loved ones.

Its not fair to the hospital staff.

Its completely disrepectful to the memory of the person who was once alive.


People kill each other every day with premeditative intentions but society refuses to terminate a single body with dignity.

[lurkalot]

SimeyTheLimey,
I wrote Link and you replied with Link.

The Courts in the State of Florida can find clear and convincing evidence of an incapacitated person's wishes in previously made oral expressions of intent.

A written will nor the prior written designation of a surrogate decision maker are required.

The Florida Statutes, Browning and the reviewed orders & procedures in Schiavo show this. Please read them. Your interpretation was incorrect and you apparently attempted to make me defend a statement I never made and a position I never took. Not that important though.

My main question was:
"Is the corroboration the court found in the testimony of Scott and Joan Schiavo insufficient, in your opinion, or do you oppose any determination of the person's own intentions absent a living will?"

[Captain Obvious]

Oh no by all means let�s solicit the knowledge of a retired senile mechanic and a stay at home mom on the rule of law of revoking the power of attorney. I am sure their vast experience and background in rotating tires and proofreading will shed blinding insight that will shatter all our perceptions on what should be done in this legal battle.

If we�re really lucky they can give us a dissertation on the Fourteenth Amendment

[slow moe]

Originally posted by simonjames:
Ah, society is majorly screwed when it allows a brain dead body to starve to death when it could very easily administer a lethal dose to quickly end the autonomous muscles keeping the body alive.

No - instead the health and legal officials will wait until the body shuts itself down organ by organ. We wouldn't treat a dog like this - why do we do this to the vessel that used to carry a person?

Leaving the body to waste away is wrong

Its not efficient.

Its not fair to the person's loved ones.

Its not fair to the hospital staff.

Its completely disrepectful to the memory of the person who was once alive.


People kill each other every day with premeditative intentions but society refuses to terminate a single body with dignity.

We are not to compare Terri's 7 day starvation and dehydration execution with the quick lethal injection given to violent criminals.

[slow moe]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
Oh no by all means let�s solicit the knowledge of a retired senile mechanic and a stay at home mom on the rule of law of revoking the power of attorney. I am sure their vast experience and background in rotating tires and proofreading will shed blinding insight that will shatter all our perceptions on what should be done in this legal battle.

If we�re really lucky they can give us a dissertation on the Fourteenth Amendment

I didn't know you was a mechanic.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by docbud:
I'm mainly a lurker, so what I have to say probably isn't worth diddly, but...

I was going to opt out of the thread, but felt compelled to thank you for posting that - definitely worth more than diddly.

[goMac]

Originally posted by slow moe:
If starvation and dehydration is painless, then I guess we can safely skip the morphine when its time for grandma to kick the bucket.

Sigh.

Arguing a means of letting her go to rest is a different thing, but your comparison is bad considering Grandma can feel whats going on because she has a working brain. Terri can not.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by zigzag:
The point is that the presence of this case before the state probate court is normal and ordinary under existing Florida law. It's their job to make life-and-death decisions under existing Florida law, and Judge Greer did so in complete accordance with Florida law. If you don't think it should be their job, just say so. That's what I've been trying to get you to do for ten pages: admit that you just don't like the way Florida law operates. Instead, you've been going in circles about how the case turned on Michael Schiavo's testimony (wrong), how there was no guardian ad litem (wrong), how the appellate reviews were limited to matters of law (wrong), and so forth. Now you're saying that you don't even have an obligation to read the trial opinion and that a federal retrial would be proper even in the absence of error, which would render 5 years of state adjudication moot and amount to a radical reworking of our judicial system. I wish you had simply conceded from the start that you don't think Florida law is adequate, which is what I said you were effectively saying.

Sadly, this thread continues to be filled with misinformation about the case and the court proceedings, and it doesn't look like I'm going to make a dent in it, so I'm outta here. I can't control what people think about the Schiavos, but I wish they would at least accord Judge Greer the respect he deserves for making the sort of difficult decision that grown-ups, and judges especially, are sometimes asked to make. That people want to punish him makes me ill.

Zigzag, you are starting to become offensive. There was only briefly a guardian ad litem. He was only there because the Florida legislature did the same kind of thing you object to the US Congress doing. They intervened, and authorized the governor to appoint a guardian ad litem. Then the guardianship was revoked by the courts when they found Terri's law unconstitutional. That is what I was referring to. During the key proceedings there was (and still is) no guardian ad litem.

The hearsay issue is the core issue. Unless, that is, you can produce some non-hearsay evidence. You yourself admit that Greer had to take that into account. Well, I think he didn't take that into account enough.

I am not criticizing Florida law because I don't find anything that objectionable in the statute. But I think the case never should have got this far when the core disputed evidence is he said, she said hearsay. As i said in my first post, that is mostly because of the procedural posture, and is probably inevitable.

I am not obligated to play counsel for the family, nor am I obligated to review the record and conduct legal research. I do not have to read any judge's opinion to have an opinion myself on the issue that is important to me. That issue is that there was nothing wrong with Congress intervening to grant federal jurisdiction in this case. It is not as you completly wrongly said a violation of state's rights. And apparently, only 55 Democrats in the House would disagree with me on that, because that is the number who voted against it. If I have time to conduct further reading, and if it interests me, I will do so. But I do not have to do it because you think it is important.

Now, as I have said all along, if the federal courts look at the matter anew with a new trial and a review of the facts including interviewing the witnesses which so far (despite your inaccurate protestations) has only happened in Judge Greer's chambers, then i will be completely satisfied. However, as I have also said, i don't expect that. I expect the courts will kill her. Then you can be satisfied.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by slow moe:
We are not to compare Terri's torturous 7 day starvation and dehydration execution with the quick lethal injection given to violent criminals.

No, you may not compare them because that comparison would be incorrect. If you are stupid, lack a medical background or JD, or lack an ounce of common sense may you make statements such as that but you do so at a cost of looking like an even less intelligent person than you clearly are.

I also did not know you "was" hooked on phonics.

[slow moe]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
No, you may not compare them because that comparison would be incorrect. If you are stupid, lack a medical background or JD, or lack an ounce of common sense may you make statements such as that but you do so at a cost of looking like an even less intelligent person than you clearly are.

I also did not know you "was" hooked on phonics.

Exactly what I was talking about. If you compare Terri's death sentence ordered by a judge to a criminal's ordered by a judge, well then you're a slobbering idiot just like Terri Schiavo. You don't have the intellectual capacity to deal with such complex issues. Elite alert.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Zigzag, you are starting to become offensive. There was only briefly a guardian ad litem. He was only there because the Florida legislature did the same kind of thing you object to the US Congress doing. They intervened, and authorized the governor to appoint a guardian ad litem. Then the guardianship was revoked by the courts when they found Terri's law unconstitutional. That is what I was referring to. During the key proceedings there was (and still is) no guardian ad litem.

You haven't read any of the opinions, you're still misstating the facts, and you're calling me offensive. Good grief.

For the tenth time:

A guardian ad litem was appointed prior to, and testified at, the trial. The trial opinion describes his role in detail, beginning on page 4. If you had read the opinion, or my posts, you would know this. I've now put it in bold for your convenience.

I've repeatedly described the GAL's role at trial, particularly how the judge adopted the GAL's finding that Michael Schiavo's testimony alone was not sufficient to create clear and convincing evidence. You appear to have ignored my repeated references to this even though it partly addressed your biggest concern.

The GAL's role at trial was also addressed in today's opinion by Judge Whittemore. Page 8.

I've also discussed the other GAL - the one appointed by Bush - on numerous occasions in my posts. Indeed, I've read his report.

The things I've been talking about are the bread and butter of trial law. Your knowledge of political science and private legislation don't spare you from dealing with them. I don't care if you're pro-life or pro-euthanasia - you've been arguing with me over and over about the posture of this case without even understanding where it's been.

I trust that you'll withdraw your remark. Buying me a beer one day wouldn't hurt either.

Edit: Expletives and sarcasm deleted.

[Cody Dawg]

Has anyone had a nice cool drink of water lately?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Has anyone had a nice cool drink of water lately?

Why won't you answer my question?

I'm not here to convince anyone of anything; that would be futile. But I would like to understand exactly what causes you to behave the way you do, since it seems to be increasingly common in the US (and perhaps in the THEM, but I'm hoping not). Namely:

You are devoting a lot of energy to defending the autonomic functions of this thing called Terry Schiavo. Why don't you have the same vehemence for starving children at home and abroad, or for the people getting the crap blown out of them in Iraq? Those people are far more numerous, they are also at the scant mercy of the US government, and furthermore they are all aware of what's going on around them. What makes Terry Schiavo so much more deserving of your...jihad?

Incidentally, this was the basis of my earlier "brown people" comment. Is it because only people who look like the US (relatively rich white people) are eligible for concern?

Much obliged for your answer.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally posted by spacefreak:

Hearsay? Please read the thread before responding.

There is a under-penalty-of-perjury affadavit signed and filed by one of the nurses who heard his "When is that bitch going to die?" statement, so you can drop the "rumor-spreading" allusion.

Ok, so I understand your position:
hearsay from the husband: irrelevant?
hearsay from the nurse: case closed?

And so you understand my position:
person A: "I don't believe that husband of hers"
person B: "Well the case doesn't swing on just his testimony, there were others, and every court that's reviewed the case in light of these others' testimony has agreed"
person C: "Yeah, that guy is totally untrustworthy"
me: "It doesn't really matter if you trust him, because that's why we have a justice system to which we delegate responsibility for evaluating the trustworthiness of our sources and arriving at the truth"
person D: "The husband's word is heresay and should be completely ignored"
me: "I refuse to address your redundant statement until you address the previous rebuttal statement already given in this discussion"

If it needs to be more succinct: spacefreak, budster101, slow moe: Just because you've found someone to hate doesn't change the issue, and the issue has been evaluated by impartial courts of both law and medicine, and they all agree, and they don't agree with you.

I respectfully ask that you stop making a big deal about the husband and his hearsay, unless you have something new to contribute, or at least respond to the statement that the case was decided on more than just his testimony. Thank you.

[goMac]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Has anyone had a nice cool drink of water lately?

Nothing left for an actual discussion, huh?

You do understand that Terri cannot suffer. At all. In the slightest. Despite the FUD her parents put out. Many many doctors have verified this.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally posted by slow moe:
Elite alert.

PS:

psychonaut:
New "Get Your War On" strips,
and they're all about Schiavo.

I love you. This page has me in tears.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally posted by slow moe:
If that's what it takes to help you sleep better at night.

Isn't that exactly why you're here making a stink? You want the state to continue using the body that was once Terry Schiavo's to keep turning food into poop*, just so you feel better about the world?

*also using it to distract active christians such as yourself from the real fundamental problems our current government is loathe to discuss, like poverty and medical coverage for people dying far more drawn out and cruel deaths than Schiavo.

[Stegabot]

Originally posted by Uncle Skeleton:
Isn't that exactly why you're here making a stink? You want the state to continue using the body that was once Terry Schiavo's to keep turning food into poop*, just so you feel better about the world?

*also using it to distract active christians such as yourself from the real fundamental problems our current government is loathe to discuss, like poverty and medical coverage for people dying far more drawn out and cruel deaths than Schiavo.

The problem in your given statement is that those people who are in poverty can first avail themselves in government programs that will help them get out of their poverty by their own choice.The US government or even Bill Gates can give those in the poverty line a million dollars each and it won't changed a damn thing because of their mindset.To eliminate poverty is to reduce handouts to a minimum and force people to really make a commitment to get out from being poor.Of course,those applies to the professional poor,but for those mired in poverty like in West Virginia and other States and are really working and trying to crawl out of the poverty line.A low interest loan coupled with educational assistance can go a long way in helping them get out of that misery.A kick start fund would help,I guess,depends on each family's situation though.Let the private secto be involve in solving poverty,the world had tried everything else.
Forget about National Medical coverage,it sucks because it is more prone to abuse.If you think Medicare and Medicaid is bad,wait until you see thing become reality.To lower medical costs and improve medical care,the private sector at the urging of the government can achieve it much faster,more efficiently and can save billions of dollars rather than having the government and it's bureaucrats control our health care. The United Kingdom's NIH is becoming a joke,France's magnificent health care service is soon to be Bankrupt and Canada's Health service,ask some honest Canadians about their health care system.To lower down cost of health insurance can be done not only by competition,but by having innovative individuals,small and large companies innovate,improve and invent new products,new technologies and getting them into the marketplace faster,cheaper and above all highly effective.Have the government set some common sense standards in health care and we will all see how fast our insurance rates will go down.

[d4nth3m4n]

it's time for my every other page request for a lock on this thread before the lounge loses all it's regulars.

[Arty50]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
If that's the case, and I'm not saying it is, then why hasn't he simply divorced her? I'm sure it's possible, given the circumstances.

I don't have time to read all 12 pages of this, so forgive me if someone else has mentioned the following. But perhaps the reason he hasn't divorced her is because he really does care for her. The second he divorces her, he will no longer be considered her legal guardian. That status will revert to her next of kin, who have shown an obvious desire to keep her body alive. So by divorcing her, he will be denying her of her wish to not be kept alive through artificial means.

People are always looking for the conspiracy theory. Often the truth is much less complicated.

[His Dudeness]

Originally posted by goMac:
Sigh.

Arguing a means of letting her go to rest is a different thing, but your comparison is bad considering Grandma can feel whats going on because she has a working brain. Terri can not.

How do you know for a fact what she can and can not feel? If this woman doesn't have a working brain, how is it that she is able to move at all and blink?