[Cody Dawg]

Maybe this will help.

Very sick and sad situation.

So many people willing to kill other people off.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Honor your promise to accept the federal court decisions.

Quoted for emphasis.

All of you who put faith in the court system, and the principles of law upon which it is based, need to stop your whining. All the legal procedures you wanted to take place have taken place, and the courts have made their decisions. Why can't you respect that?

Or, to put it another way:

All of you who agreed with the courts decision in the 2000 election--both the Florida Supreme Court and the US SUpreme Court--please step forward.

OK, now why do you now not respect the same decisions of these courts?
Either you trust the legal decisions of these courts or you don't?
So, if you trusted the decisions in 2000 why do you not trust them now?

[zerostar]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
On top of which the first judge was/is LEGALLY BLIND.

So am I, legally, but with glasses I have almost 20/20 vision, what is your point here?

[bstone]

What is sick is the amount of time, money and effort which has gone into denying this woman her wishes.

Just imagine if the same effort was put into hungry homeless kids or AIDS or, GASP, the genocide in Darfur.

[slow moe]

Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
Quoted for emphasis.

All of you who put faith in the court system, and the principles of law upon which it is based, need to stop your whining. All the legal procedures you wanted to take place have taken place, and the courts have made their decisions. Why can't you respect that?

Or, to put it another way:

All of you who agreed with the courts decision in the 2000 election--both the Florida Supreme Court and the US SUpreme Court--please step forward.

OK, now why do you now not respect the same decisions of these courts?
Either you trust the legal decisions of these courts or you don't?
So, if you trusted the decisions in 2000 why do you not trust them now?

Do you think it is appropriate for the courts to deprive a patient in a severely impaired mental state food and water until he/she dies when there is an intra-family dispute about their wishes?

[bstone]

Originally posted by slow moe:
Do you think it is appropriate for the courts to deprive a patient in a severely impaired mental state food and water until he/she dies when there is an intra-family dispute about their wishes?

When her husband and two others confirm this is her wishes, then it is her right.

[saddino]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
The judges are not seeing these videos.

No, the courts did see the full video (from which Terri's parents have conveniently clipped the chance occurances where it appears she is responsive): in all, four hours of Terri's parents frantically trying to get a response from her. According to the ruling:

The film offered into evidence by Respondents does nothing to change these medical opinions whch are supported by the CAT scans in evidence.

[Cody Dawg]

Bingo - slow moe does it again.



It's sick.

Especially when the one family member dictating the most important wishes has a severe and extreme conflict of interest.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by slow moe:
Do you think it is appropriate for the courts to deprive a patient in a severely impaired mental state food and water until he/she dies when there is an intra-family dispute about their wishes?

Yes. Yes, I do. My respect for the law and the legal process remains unabated even when decisions are passed to which I am vehemently opposed. Our nation was founded and is based on a respect for the law. That respect for the law must be fundamental.

You guys hoping to save Terry's life are not going to win on this one. But what you can, and SHOULD, do is work just as intensely as you are now to get laws changed so that in situations like this there will be legal recourse for the family. Because right now there is none.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by slow moe:
Do you think it is appropriate for the courts to deprive a patient in a severely impaired mental state food and water until he/she dies when there is an intra-family dispute about their wishes?

You don't get it. The legal system is there to protect people like Terry Schiavo. BUT, it protects her in the context of the laws it is permitted to use. And every court has found that Michael Schiavo is within his right to ask that the feeding tube be removed. Heck, the judges in the 11th Circuit Appeals court expressed their dismay at the pain and suffering that has befallen the parents, but they ARE acting within the confines of the law. And within that confines the courts have found no reason to deny Michael Schaivo's request.

So, I say again, do you have respect for the court decisions?

[zerostar]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:

[zerostar]

Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
So, I say again, do you have respect for the court decisions?

Only when the decision is in step with mine.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
On top of which the first judge was/is LEGALLY BLIND.

Broken record. Just as you quote obviously don't know the definition of legally blind, you also keep repeating to watch the videos, incessantly, and you'll no doubt continue to do so, as you obviously have no grasp of what this case entails, other than meeting some emotional need of yours. I have watched the videos, but it really doesn't matter, because I am not an expert in this area, as you are not either. We could have a great gathering of all the MacNN posters and watch the videos for hours and hours on end, but it still wouldn't change something that you definitely don't grasp - the facts.

All the questions that are being asked here on these boards concerning this case have no doubt been asked in court numerous times, and the result is always the same, even at the federal level, where this case should never have gone in the first place, but where it wound up because it provides a sneaky way for the right to life group to use it as the basis for another attack on abortion, and not out of concern for Terri Schiavo.

You just don't want to deal with facts, as your emotions overpower your logic, and that's understandable, to a degree, but it isn't going to change the results. You stated earlier in the thread that you would accept the decision of the federal courts, even though you woulnd't like it, and yet you, and others who can't grasp facts, continue to blather on, conveniently selecting bits of "evidence" that you think bolster your side.

The facts are that Terri is in a persistant vegetative state, as determined by medical experts and not by armchair quarterbacks on the MacNN forums, and she's not going to get better, and you have no choice but to deal with that.

[bstone]

Originally posted by KarlG:
Broken record. Just as you quote obviously don't know the definition of legally blind, you also keep repeating to watch the videos, incessantly, and you'll no doubt continue to do so, as you obviously have no grasp of what this case entails, other than meeting some emotional need of yours. I have watched the videos, but it really doesn't matter, because I am not an expert in this area, as you are not either. We could have a great gathering of all the MacNN posters and watch the videos for hours and hours on end, but it still wouldn't change something that you definitely don't grasp - the facts.

etc, etc, etc

Excellent post, sir.

[slow moe]

Originally posted by KarlG:
The facts are that Terri is in a persistant vegetative state, as determined by medical experts and not by armchair quarterbacks on the MacNN forums, and she's not going to get better, and you have no choice but to deal with that.

It is unclear whether Terri Schiavo has had the medical tests that should be mandatory for any finding of PVS on which an effective death sentence is to be predicated.

It is also unclear this is what Terri wanted.

Even if Terri is in a PVS, it is unbelievable to me that she would have wanted to be slowly starved and dehydrated to death. Most people who actually have a living will choose a more quicker method.

[bstone]

Originally posted by slow moe:
It is unclear whether Terri Schiavo has had the medical tests that should be mandatory for any finding of PVS on which an effective death sentence is to be predicated.

Rubbish.

It is also unclear this is what Terri wanted.

Rubbish.

Even if Terri is in a PVS, it is unbelievable to me that she would have wanted to be slowly starved and dehydrated to death. Most people who actually have a living will choose a more quicker method.

Rubbish. You are not in touch with the vast majority of people who say, "just pull the plug if I ever end up like that".

[zerostar]

Originally posted by slow moe:
Most people who actually have a living will choose a more quicker method.

There is no legal "quicker method" care to back this statement up?

There is no legal "dr. death" who will aid in your dying wishes, only thing you can get is a pulled plug, and hope for a quick death.

In a situation such as Terri the body will die and the brain clearly shows no signs of feeling or pain, so while long it will be painless.

[Cody Dawg]

Even if Terri is in a PVS, it is unbelievable to me that she would have wanted to be slowly starved and dehydrated to death.

Yes, all here in favor of a DNR order that includes withholding fluids and food until a person dies a very uncomfortable and painful death, please raise your hands.

We put people in jail for doing that to animals - even rodents.

Yet we're doing it to a human being.

[slow moe]

Originally posted by bstone:
Rubbish. You are not in touch with the vast majority of people who say, "just pull the plug if I ever end up like that".

It is a mistake to assume that people can make decisions in advance about whether to have themselves starved to death if they eventually find themselves disabled.

One does not know how one will actually feel, or how one will feel about one's life and the prospect of death, or whether one will retain a desire to live despite a mental or physical disability, when one is not actually in that condition and when one is envisaging it from the perspective of more or less robust health.

Consider the case of a beautiful young woman � an actress or fashion model perhaps � who is severely burned in a fire. Prior to actually finding herself in such a condition, she might have supposed � and even said, if the subject had come up in a conversation � that she would rather be dead than live with her face grotesquely disfigured. But no one would be surprised if in the actual event she did not try to kill herself by starvation or some other means, and did not want to die.

[Cody Dawg]

I am going to have to leave orders that state that if I am connected to a ventilator to DNR me - but please don't starve me or withhold fluids until I die. Seriously.

Vatican paper criticizes ruling in brain-damaged woman's case

Associated Press

VATICAN CITY - The Vatican pressed its campaign to keep Terri Schiavo alive Tuesday, saying that pulling the plug on the brain-damaged Florida woman amounted to capital punishment for someone who has committed no crimes.

In a front-page editorial, the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano criticized a U.S. federal judge's refusal to order the reinsertion of Schiavo's feeding tube.

"She has no possibility of being 'restored' to a 'normal' life. Therefore Terri Schiavo must die," the editorial began. "This is ... the absurd and terrifying reason" for the judge's decision, it added.

[saddino]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Yes, all here in favor of a DNR order that includes withholding fluids and food until a person dies a very peaceful death, please raise your hands.

Fixed.

From today's Washington Post:
Whatever the mechanism of death, experts are virtually unanimous in saying it does not appear to be painful.

"You go into a uremic coma. You go into a stuporous state, and you stay that way until you die," said William Knaus, who once co-directed the intensive care unit at George Washington University Medical Center. "There is absolutely no indication that the body reacts to this with stress."

Storey said that in his hospice practice he has "sat at the bedside of thousands of patients as they died, and many of them could tell me how they were feeling when they had gone weeks without eating and drinking." What they told him, he said, was that they did not feel bad at all. Their chief discomfort was a dry mouth. That could be relieved by sips of water or by swabbing the mouth with a water-soaked sponge.

[bstone]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Yes, all here in favor of a DNR order that includes withholding fluids and food until a person dies a very uncomfortable and painful death, please raise your hands.

Rubbish. You ignore 2 things:

1) Mrs Schiavo has no cortex and cannot feel anything, including death via starvation

2) Starvation has proved to be a relatively painfree way to die. Look back on this thread for links to medical journals proving such.

[saddino]

Originally posted by slow moe:
It is a mistake to assume that people can make decisions in advance about whether to have themselves starved to death if they eventually find themselves disabled.

One does not know how one will actually feel, or how one will feel about one's life and the prospect of death, or whether one will retain a desire to live despite a mental or physical disability, when one is not actually in that condition and when one is envisaging it from the perspective of more or less robust health.

Consider the case of a beautiful young woman � an actress or fashion model perhaps � who is severely burned in a fire. Prior to actually finding herself in such a condition, she might have supposed � and even said, if the subject had come up in a conversation � that she would rather be dead than live with her face grotesquely disfigured. But no one would be surprised if in the actual event she did not try to kill herself by starvation or some other means, and did not want to die.

Slow moe, next time you cut and paste your entire post from an article in the National Review (or from anywhere else), it would be helpful to include it [QUOTE]s. You don't want anyone to think you're a plagiarist.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by bstone:


Excellent post, sir.

Thank you. I just find it utterly fascinating that people wrap themselves up with so much emotion while ignoring the facts, and interminably looking for another straw to grasp, to buttress their argument, as if they were the first ones to think of that argument.

[Cadaver]

Originally posted by zerostar:
There is no legal "quicker method" care to back this statement up?

There is no legal "dr. death" who will aid in your dying wishes, only thing you can get is a pulled plug, and hope for a quick death.

In a situation such as Terri the body will die and the brain clearly shows no signs of feeling or pain, so while long it will be painless.

Quoted again for emphasis.

[Cody Dawg]

Starvation has proved to be a relatively painfree way to die.

Oh yeah? Tell that to 6000 Jews who were literally starved to death.

[bstone]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Oh yeah? Tell that to 6000 Jews who were literally starved to death.

I will say this once and only once-

Do *NOT* compare the systematic murder of my people to Mrs Schiavo.

[waxcrash]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Oh yeah? Tell that to 6000 Jews who were literally starved to death.

Oh great, now you bring the Holocaust into this.

Until you can grasp the true facts instead of spewing emotional garbage, on behalf of the members here at MacNN, please just go away.

IBTL.

[zerostar]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Oh yeah? Tell that to 6000 Jews who were literally starved to death.

What exactly is your problem? And now you gotta bring the Jews in to this?

Starvation is a almost painless way to go, Hunger subsides quickly and the pain produced before death is quite low.

Any animal who starves to death will stop "fussing" in a short time and die in a quiet way, typically in sleep.

I think the 2nd post in this thread says it all.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Oh yeah? Tell that to 6000 Jews who were literally starved to death.

Wow, just when I thought this thread would make it without a Hitler reference. Worse than blanco's 9/11 reference

[zerostar]

Originally posted by waxcrash:
on behalf of the members here at MacNN, please just go away.

Ill second that motion

Can I get an Amen?


(perhaps we should have a "Save Cowdy?" Poll

[saddino]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Oh yeah? Tell that to 6000 Jews who were literally starved to death.

You have completely lost it. You need to step back, regroup and er, create another nickname to post under.

[zerostar]

Originally posted by saddino:
You have completely lost it. You need to step back, regroup and er, create another nickname to post under.

another, another? haha

[Cody Dawg]

I had a grandfather who was in a concentration camp. He specifically told me how horrible it was to not be able to eat food. He ate GRASS to fill his stomach. He said that he will never forget the faces of the other children who were crying from stomachaches from starving.

I will never forget that, ever.

When he moved to this country he opened a grocery store(s) because he said that being around all of the food helped him feel better.

He would never throw out a crust of bread or any other food. It was an obsession with him.

So, when I hear about Terri Schiavo starving to death and someone telling me that starving to death is painless I forcefully MUST disagree.

Why don't you folks bragging about how it is painless just skip a couple of days of food and meals and then come back here and tell us how it doesn't bother you one bit.

Seriously.

[yakkiebah]

[bstone]

Cody,
You have lost all credibility. You have gone off the deep-end and into another dimension altogether. I highly suggest you remove yourself from this debate.

[zerostar]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
someone telling me that starving to death is painless I forcefully MUST disagree.

Who told you that? NO ONE SAID IT WAS PAINLESS. Are your meds up to date?

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Cadaver:
So by that reasoning, only spouses of people without life insurance should be allowed to make decisions regarding their treatment, correct??

I note that you conveniently ignore how he has reattached himself. The insurance alone would not be much of an issue. When combined with the other issues I've mentioned however -the alimony, the malpractice suit, and the second marriage- the argument becomes more compelling.

And for people with insurance, we should allow congress to make the decisions then?

Is that what your telling me?

No. I'm saying that in the absence of any trustworthy witnesses, we can only guess, the only ethical thing to do is err on the side of caution, with an eye towards being able to reverse that guess should it somehow be proven wrong in the future. This is how we treat people suspected of committing crimes, under the idea that -in the words of the Framers- it is better to let ten guilty men go free than to punish a single innocent. If we extend our criminals that courtesy, should we not also extend it to the innocent?

Show me ONE case where someone makes a decision about the medical treatment of his/her spouse WITHOUT a conflict of interest of some kind, and I'll disregard your incredibly short-sighted statement.

I already said that it takes more than insurance alone to create a conflict of interest. Or are you saying that no one has ever done such a thing as I describe?

[Cody Dawg]

zerostare
Who told you that? NO ONE SAID IT WAS PAINLESS. Are your meds up to date?

Uh, you're fellow good buddy bstone said:

Rubbish. You ignore 2 things:

1) Mrs Schiavo has no cortex and cannot feel anything, including death via starvation

2) Starvation has proved to be a relatively painfree way to die. Look back on this thread for links to medical journals proving such.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Why don't you folks bragging about how it is painless just skip a couple of days of food and meals and then come back here and tell us how it doesn't bother you one bit.

you have a lot of empathy

but your metaphor is like comparing your grandpa's starvation with my chair

[zerostar]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Uh, you're fellow good buddy bstone said:

"relatively painfree way to die."

Where does it say PAINLESS? I tried a search but nothing came up.

Painless is without pain, no one here said anything of the sort.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Oh yeah? Tell that to 6000 Jews who were literally starved to death.

Have you no sense of decency or shame?

[Cody Dawg]

1 entry found for painfree.

painfree

pain-free adj : not accompanied by pain sensations;

pain�less
Pronunciation: 'pAn-l&s
Function: adjective
1 : not experiencing pain
2 : not causing pain : not accompanied by pain : not painful

Tell me the difference, please, between painfree and painless?

[waxcrash]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
�go to the one where she is sleeping and her father walks in and asks her to open her eyes. Not only does she open her eyes as her father asks (when she wakes up), but she opens them EXTRA WIDE.

I know this has been pounded into Cody Dawg's head, but she refuses to understand.

From the Chicago Tribune:

In Schiavo's case, "if you look at her eyes, she doesn't make track or make contact," said Cranford, who observed her clinically for 42 minutes in 2002. "If you ask her to do something, she can't do it. She smiled and grimaced, but it had nothing to do with me. She does it spontaneously.

"You go in the room and say `Terri' and her eyes open," Cranford continued. "That's an arousal response. If you go in and say `President Bush,' the same thing would happen."

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by waxcrash:
I know this has been pounded into Cody Dawg's head, but she refuses to understand.

"You go in the room and say `Terri' and her eyes open," Cranford continued. "That's an arousal response. If you go in and say `President Bush,' the same thing would happen." [/B]

i know

this is the sad part for me. say they feed her...

she stays like this for another decade? 2 decades? 3 decades even?

[Cody Dawg]

I'm not arguing that.

What I'm saying that I WISH would happen is that this woman be remanded to third party neutral custody and that they give her a good year of intensive therapy - physical and verbal - and then re-evaluate.

That's all.

[Cody Dawg]

"The color is gone from her face, she has lost her rosy complexion, her face is starting to get very hollow around the chin. There are indentations, ridges under the eyes. Her tummy's swelling, she is starving," he told reporters outside the hospice Wednesday morning.

Yeah, this is a nice pleasant way to die.

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Yeah, this is a nice pleasant way to die.

It is if your consciousness has gone away years ago.

[OldManMac]

You just don't get it, do you?!

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I'm not arguing that.

What I'm saying that I WISH would happen is that this woman be remanded to third party neutral custody and that they give her a good year of intensive therapy - physical and verbal - and then re-evaluate.

And you WISH that there was a possibility that such therapy would work. There isn't.