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Cody Dawg · Mar 23, 2005, 06:04 PM

And what if they're wrong?

New information suggests Schiavo's condition might have been misdiagnosed, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush said Wednesday afternoon.

A neurologist who reviewed Schiavo's medical records for the state Department of Children and Families indicated that she is "most likely in a state of minimal consciousness," rather than the persistent vegetative state previous doctors have diagnosed, Bush said.

"This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action," Bush said.

It is better to err on the side of life.

goMac · Mar 23, 2005, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
And what if they're wrong?

It is better to err on the side of life.

Misdiagnosis? Shes missing most of her brain. Did the catscan lie or something?

Cody Dawg · Mar 23, 2005, 06:09 PM

"Most" is not "all."

saddino · Mar 23, 2005, 06:09 PM

Apparently, he reviewed all the records but this one:

It is better to err on the side of fulfilling poor Terri's wishes.

Cody Dawg · Mar 23, 2005, 06:14 PM

Why the rush to have her die? I don't get it. She'll be dead forever. Another year or two or even 30 more years is nothing. Why does she have to die NOW? If she's truly unaware and unconscious then keeping her alive does not matter.

What further damage can be done if she is kept alive?

Seriously, I'd like an answer to that question: What is the damage or harm in keeping her alive?

Mithras · Mar 23, 2005, 06:15 PM

Because this case has been litigated for a decade, Cody, and the harm is in contravening her wishes.
Say, you never did answer me whether you think George Bush's law allowing individuals, families, and hospitals to choose to stop artificial hydration and nutrition is immoral.

spacefreak · Mar 23, 2005, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by saddino:
No, the courts did see the full video (from which Terri's parents have conveniently clipped the chance occurances where it appears she is responsive):

The intial cases... I was referring to these appeals. Surely you don't think that an appeals judge in his 2-hour review somehow found 4 hours to watch video.

spacefreak · Mar 23, 2005, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by Mithras:
Because this case has been litigated for a decade, Cody, and the harm is in contravening her wishes.

Wishes which were somehow allowed into court as hearsay 7 years after her accident. Most husbands who have a firm directive from their spouse would have piped up immediately.

saddino · Mar 23, 2005, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Seriously, I'd like an answer to that question: What is the damage or harm in keeping her alive?

Michael Schaivo has been trying to fufill Terri's wishes. He tried for years to rehabilitate her.

From the ruling:
By all accounts, Mr. Schiavo has been was very motivated in pursuing the best medical care for his wife, even taking her to California for a month or so for experimental treatment. It is undisputed that he was very aggressive with nursing home personnel to make certain that she received the finest of care.

We should not get in the way of Terri's wishes.

OreoCookie · Mar 23, 2005, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Why the rush to have her die? I don't get it. She'll be dead forever. Another year or two or even 30 more years is nothing. Why does she have to die NOW? If she's truly unaware and unconscious then keeping her alive does not matter.

What further damage can be done if she is kept alive?

Seriously, I'd like an answer to that question: What is the damage or harm in keeping her alive?

Rush? She's been deteriorating for 15 years now, that's not my idea of rushing things.

Apple Pro Underwear · Mar 23, 2005, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Seriously, I'd like an answer to that question: What is the damage or harm in keeping her alive?

If it was me...

The pain of being kept alive in that state. The tarnishment of the human being you were and now living as something less useful than a pair of shoelaces.

The burden of your family's emotions as well as now the political system.

OreoCookie · Mar 23, 2005, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
If it was me...

The pain of being kept alive in that state. The tarnishment of the human being you were and now living as something less useful than a pair of shoelaces.

The burden of your family's emotions as well as now the political system.

Plus I would want my spouse to continue living and not die (slowly?) with me.

Captain Obvious · 06:57 PM

Originally posted by Moderator:
Signed by GW

Under Texas law, hospitals can cease to feed a patient whose prognosis is so poor that further care would be futile if that patient has no way to pay his or her medical expenses.

A baby was pulled of life support under that legislation this past week, against his mother�s wishes.

atta boy Georgie!

What did I just say.

Read the bill. I know you would rather just believe what some other idiot wrote on his blog and quote it but if you are so adamant on telling everyone its true at least take the time to look it up. The bill actually added constraints to what hospitals could do. Prior to that they had virtually no standard they had to follow in deciding to discontinue care if they intervened.
The bill EXTENDED (if you need a dictionary for the big words get it now) the period which hospitals had to give before doing what they had ALWAYS done in the past. It gave procedural structure to cases where hospitals were planning to deny further care to a patient for whatever reason the intervention committee had decided upon. No where in that bill does it say that if you can�t afford treatment they will unplug you. The bill you keep blabbering about gave protections to patients where there had previously been none.

That baby people keep yapping about was actually give more care by the hospital than what was required of them. It was a baby doorstop with less hope of getting better than most of you understanding what the hell these issues are about.

Again, the stupidity from you people is astounding.

spacefreak · Mar 23, 2005, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
If it was me...

The pain of being kept alive in that state. The tarnishment of the human being you were and now living as something less useful than a pair of shoelaces.

The burden of your family's emotions as well as now the political system.

But it's not you, and you have absolutely no idea what her life is like to her.

ironknee · Mar 23, 2005, 06:49 PM

ah i just got it...religious right peeeps want terri to stay "alive" because in her, they see the perfect christian, she will never think for herself or question the church..or ever grasping the fact of evolution...

Cody Dawg · Mar 23, 2005, 06:56 PM

Actually, if you really think about it, she IS a perfect Christian.

Christians believe all people are perfect, created in God's image.

ironknee · Mar 23, 2005, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Actually, if you really think about it, she IS a perfect Christian.

Christians believe all people are perfect, created in God's image.

god's image? why doesn't she have a penis then?

cody are u really iwrite?

Cody Dawg · Mar 23, 2005, 07:00 PM

You, my friend, seem to be an imbecile.

ironknee · Mar 23, 2005, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
You, my friend, seem to be an imbecile.

nice...almost like talking to zim...:LOL:

at least i don't believe in invisible people who live in the clouds...

deej5871 · Mar 23, 2005, 07:15 PM

Updated count:
# of times "Christian" has been said in this thread: 5 + 3 + 1 + 3 + 7 + 3 = 22 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 4 + 3 = 33
(not including quotes of course; "right" or "right-wing" has followed the word about 2/3 of the times it was said; and yes, a few (5, at most) of the "Christian"'s were in reference to the soul discussion)

This really needs to stop. Being a Catholic also in the right-to-die side of this, it is really getting on my nerves. Besides, earlier in this thread someone posted that poll where something like 70% of people didn't like the government involvement and so on, so some Christians obviously don't like this.

------------

Michael Schiavo is not the King of Darkness that everyone keeps making him out to be. He gets crap for his "common-law" marriage when really he shouldn't be demonized for trying to get on with his life since his wife has been PVS for the past 15 years. He gets crap for doing this for the money, when he's been offered tons of money to let Terri be put into other people's hands. Some have said this would make him "public enemy #1" so he won't take the money, but I contend that he already is with the way everyone is painting him. They all say he's a wife beater who was cheating on his wife, who only wants money (sometimes evidenced with the malpractice suit), who didn't give his wife a chance at rehab, and on and on. My point is the stuff that hasn't been dismissed for good reason (like the "doing it for the money" point), is all completely baseless. No one here knows what this guy is really like, so maybe you should leave judging him to the judges.

"Err on the side of life" is meaningless. What if life is the exact opposite of what Terri would have wanted? Then it is just as bad as killing her. There is no side in this situation which is better to err on simply because either side could be the exact opposite of what Terri would have wanted. Whether or not one side is reversible is a non-issue. (I'm having real trouble forming my point on this issue into words. If anyone understands what I'm getting at please feel free to expand upon it.)

The judge being legally blind means nothing. Someone here said that they are legally blind and are 20/20 with glasses. So, it's safe to assume that when the videos were shown in court that the judge could see them well enough to make a solid determination. He did, and that was that Terri wasn't cognitive or responsive or any of the other BS that everyone is trying to say the videos demonstrate.

Mithras, you've compared this to Bush's Texas law about Eleventy Billion� times. I don't understand exactly what point your trying to make. Bush is a hypocrite? He probably didn't even read the whole law, but assuming he did, maybe he's just like everyone else and doesn't think Michael Schiavo should be deciding the fate of his wife*.

What exactly are the parent's arguing? I only know about the case from what I've read in this thread. Are they saying that Terri told them specifically that she would want to live if she was ever in this situation?

-----------

This has really fallen apart. Cody and other's need to stop with the broken record and start making points that haven't already been countered and proven wrong. Other people need to stop with the needless insults. You make yourself sound stupid by resorting to insults rather than keeping your cool. I know it's hard when you have to repeat yourself so much, but turning to insults is not the way to go.

*Does not mean that I am one of the people that thinks Michael is the only one that said Terri would have wanted to die

entrox · Mar 23, 2005, 07:17 PM

Absolutely mind-boggling. Both the case and this thread. Can we get a lock?

deej5871 · Mar 23, 2005, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by ironknee:
at least i don't believe in invisible people who live in the clouds...

Was there supposed to be a wink smilie there, or are you trying to be a jackass?

Captain Obvious · Mar 23, 2005, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by deej5871:

What exactly are the parent's arguing? I only know about the case from what I've read in this thread. Are they saying that Terri told them specifically that she would want to live if she was ever in this situation?

That she can get better and should not be left to die. Which is about the same odds of her winning the Powerball, twice.

deej5871 · Mar 23, 2005, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by entrox:
Absolutely mind-boggling. Both the case and this thread. Can we get a lock?

I think the only way to get this thread locked with the way things have been going is to start Flame War I.

Ω · Mar 23, 2005, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by deej5871:
Updated count:
# of times "Christian" has been said in this thread: 5 + 3 + 1 + 3 + 7 + 3 = 22 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 4 + 3 = 33
(not including quotes of course; "right" or "right-wing" has followed the word about 2/3 of the times it was said; and yes, a few (5, at most) of the "Christian"'s were in reference to the soul discussion)

Let me help you with your maths:

Muslim = Terrorist.

Unfortunately we tend to classify people incorrectly because it makes it simplier for us to comprehend the situation.

.....now back to the fighting.....

waxcrash · Mar 23, 2005, 07:30 PM

From a medical/scientific perspective, what type of research has or can be done to treat Terri's condition? Would stem cell research maybe one day help people in Terri's condition?

spacefreak · Mar 23, 2005, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by deej5871:
"Err on the side of life" is meaningless. What if life is the exact opposite of what Terri would have wanted? Then it is just as bad as killing her. There is no side in this situation which is better to err on simply because either side could be the exact opposite of what Terri would have wanted. Whether or not one side is reversible is a non-issue. (I'm having real trouble forming my point on this issue into words. If anyone understands what I'm getting at please feel free to expand upon it.)

Seems to me that you just gave the "err on the side of life" some meaning.

If we really don't know what the patient wants in such cases (ie. no living will), it's important for us a society to err, or default, to keeping the person alive. We pretty much already do, at least the medical profession does.

If Terry truly wanted to die (if she was asked of the scenario before her accident), then I'm for the tube removal (actually, I'd actually prefer a lethal injection, but I realize that is a much more complicated issue).

The uniqueness of this case to me rests mostly on the fact that her husband waited 7 years before revealing her living will-type preferences. That, along with the fact that her family is more than willing to take care of her, is what has me torn.

spacefreak · Mar 23, 2005, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by waxcrash:
Would stem cell research maybe one day help people in Terri's condition?

I'm sure we would have heard about it by now if that were the case. Either that, or the stem cell crowd (actually, the embrionic stem cell crowd) is waiting for her death to capitalize on the moment as they did with Reagan and Christopher Reeves.

Cody Dawg · Mar 23, 2005, 08:09 PM

residentEvil · Mar 23, 2005, 08:15 PM

My parents and I have our living wills done, since the law passed here in Michigan (1990ish, don't remember). While I haven't updated it probably 5 years, it is one of the most important documents I have.

If my wishes were 'held up by the courts' or some aholes who think they are 'doing good', I'd hope my PoA fights for my wishes.

Come to think of it, time to change who that is

On a side note, I'm the only son (of 3) that would agree to the wishes of my parent's living will. I hope it doesn't come to making that sorta of decision, but I'm prepaired.

as my mom says, "you can't wait to pull that plug can you?." see, we are a family that talks and works these things out and can make light of the situation. but yes, she is right. i can't wait!

Cody Dawg · Mar 23, 2005, 08:22 PM

Local news just broke in to say that "the state is currently reviewing several case reports of alleged abuse before and after Terri Schiavo became incapcitated including filed police reports."

"If the state determines that there is, in fact, an abuse issue then DCF will be removing Ms. Schaivo from custody of Michael Schaivo."

I hope that they know what they are doing. It would be terrible if they remove her and then she has to go through this again further on down the road.

entrox · Mar 23, 2005, 08:23 PM

As said on SA: Should I fall into a coma, I do not want to be kept alive. I want my body to be donated to science, preferably the kind of science that claws at the moral fabric of Heaven itself.

Cody Dawg · Mar 23, 2005, 08:28 PM

Donate your body to these people.

deej5871 · Mar 23, 2005, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Seems to me that you just gave the "err on the side of life" some meaning.

If we really don't know what the patient wants in such cases (ie. no living will), it's important for us a society to err, or default, to keeping the person alive. We pretty much already do, at least the medical profession does.

I see what you're saying. I do, I really do. However I don't think I got my point across to you well (and I still can't, as I said). What I'm trying to say is that people often don't take into account that one side is irreversible. Now, the only comparison I can think of is the death penalty*. When it is decided that someone is to be put to death, many times it is impossible to be completely sure that someone did it, especially when they still plead not guilty (although had they plead guilty I'm sure they'd get a plea bargain that didn't include the death penalty, but that's beside the point). Can we be really really sure that the accused did it? No. However the death penalty may still be dealt out.

I realize that probably isn't the best comparison (but like I said, I'm having trouble put my concepts into words); and if you are against the death penalty my comparison ultimately means nothing. But it's all I can think to say on the matter.

*No, I'm not talking about the death penalty in at all the same way that people have in this thread before. I'm just trying to demonstrate that sometimes the state doesn't err on the side of life.

docbud · Mar 23, 2005, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Terri would have wanted him to have divorced her - long before he moved in with another woman and had two kids with her.

And you know this how??? Did she leave something in writing?

d

Cody Dawg · Mar 23, 2005, 08:41 PM

As a woman - the same gender as Terri - I can assure you that no woman wants her husband moving in with another woman and her husband then proceeding to have two children. Especially while married.

the_glassman · Mar 23, 2005, 08:46 PM

I've heard she had bulimia and that caused the stoke to happen in the first place. Do the humane thing, pull the plug!
If it was an animal we wouldn't have any problem doing so.

Uncle Skeleton · Mar 23, 2005, 08:46 PM

As a woman, how do you feel about your husband remarrying after you die?

PS. Please answer my other question about what makes schiavo so special to fight for, and what makes the rest of the victims of the Bush administration so un-special.

the_glassman · Mar 23, 2005, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
As a woman - the same gender as Terri - I can assure you that no woman wants her husband moving in with another woman and her husband then proceeding to have two children. Especially while married.

His wife has been dead for 15 years, he moved on because he had to. Why is it so hard for everyone else to understand this?

docbud · Mar 23, 2005, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
As a woman - the same gender as Terri - I can assure you that no woman wants her husband moving in with another woman and her husband then proceeding to have two children. Especially while married.

That doesn't mean you can vouch for what Terri thinks. You can assure me all you want to, but it's just your opinon.

It's been fifteen years, you know.

d

docbud · Mar 23, 2005, 08:48 PM

damn--you folks post quick

grayware · Mar 23, 2005, 08:49 PM

Why such fear of death? Every human who's ever walked this planet and who ever will, will die. It's natural. What's NOT natural, is keeping a person alive artificially. This kind of issue is rather new to contemporary generations. Now tell me... who's playing God?

Cody Dawg · Mar 23, 2005, 08:53 PM

As a woman, how do you feel about your husband remarrying after you die?

I think it's necessary and good for him.

I also hope she looks like Elizabeth Hurley or some other fabulous woman and has an equally great mind to keep his attention when they're not making hanky panky.

P.S., She must also agree to take good care of my children - and my little dog too.

goMac · Mar 23, 2005, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by grayware:
Why such fear of death? Every human who's ever walked this planet and who ever will, will die. It's natural. What's NOT natural, is keeping a person alive artificially. This kind of issue is rather new to contemporary generations. Now tell me... who's playing God?

docbud · Mar 23, 2005, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by Cody Dawg: - and my little dog too.

Why do I get a flashback to the Wizard of Oz???

deej5871 · Mar 23, 2005, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
As a woman - the same gender as Terri - I can assure you that no woman wants her husband moving in with another woman and her husband then proceeding to have two children. Especially while married.

Now (husband affair): "Oh, I know exactly how she feels because that's the way I would feel."
Before (pulling the plug): "Just because you feel that way about the situation doesn't mean she would."

You crack me up.

Cody Dawg · Mar 23, 2005, 08:58 PM

Thank you.

(Takes a bow)

Cody Dawg · Mar 23, 2005, 08:59 PM

Why do I get a flashback to the Wizard of Oz???

Hi docbud - because that was my intention.

(LOVE the Wizard of Oz, BTW.

I do, in fact, have a little dog.

docbud · Mar 23, 2005, 09:02 PM

Just so you know, Mrs. Dawg, I mean no offense by it. It's just when I saw the little dog thing, the Wizard of Oz popped into my head

Upon rereading your post, I see how it was intentional

d

Apple Pro Underwear · Mar 23, 2005, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
But it's not you, and you have absolutely no idea what her life is like to her.

what?

lying in a hospital bed for 17 years?

having a nurse clean your bedpan 3 times a day?

having your family visit you daily for 1 hour?

when nobody visits you (during the course of 17yrs, her family must have had a vacation or 2 right?) having the head nurse wipe off the accumulated dust on your face?

people all over the world remembering you as a vegetable instead of the bright human being you once were?

not having the capacity to mentally understand what I just typed?

She has no idea of what life is because she is not alive mentally anymore.