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macintologist · Mar 23, 2005, 04:23 AM

Hat tip to DailyKos

Man. This Schiavo thing is becoming even more a disaster for DeLay and company. First, Democrats got to sit back and quietly watch the GOP make asses of themselves with the public. Now, Democrats get to watch an encore -- Republicans turning on each other.

Senator John W. Warner of Virginia, the sole Republican to oppose the Schiavo bill in a voice vote in the Senate, said: "This senator has learned from many years you've got to separate your own emotions from the duty to support the Constitution of this country. These are fundamental principles of federalism."

"It looks as if it's a wholly Republican exercise," Mr. Warner said, "but in the ranks of the Republican Party, there is not a unanimous view that Congress should be taking this step."

In interviews over the past two days, conservatives who expressed concern about the turn of events in Congress stopped short of condemning the vote in which overwhelming majorities supported the Schiavo bill, and they generally applauded the goal of trying to keep Ms. Schiavo alive. But they said they were concerned about what precedent had been set and said the vote went against Republicans who were libertarian, advocates of states' rights or supporters of individual rights.

"My party is demonstrating that they are for states' rights unless they don't like what states are doing," said Representative Christopher Shays of Connecticut, one of five House Republicans who voted against the bill. "This couldn't be a more classic case of a state responsibility."

"This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy," Mr. Shays said. "There are going to be repercussions from this vote. There are a number of people who feel that the government is getting involved in their personal lives in a way that scares them."

Man, when Shays talks about the American Taliban in his party's ranks...

What a monumentally stupid move by the GOP.

In Florida, the locals aren't happy with the Feds. The latest (first?) poll on Floridian reaction to the story:

Strategic Vision. 3/18-20. MoE 3%. (No trend lines.)

Do you support the decision to remove Terri Schiavo�s feeding tube?
Yes 61
No 30

Do you approve or disapprove of the Congress and president intervening in the Terri Schiavo case?
Support 33
Oppose 64

Would you want to be kept alive if you were in a state similar to Terri Schiavo�s?
Yes 13
No 81

These numbers despite the hideously skewed coverage of this mess on the cable news networks.

demograph68 · Mar 23, 2005, 04:40 AM

Would you want to be kept alive if you were in a state similar to Terri Schiavo�s?
Yes 13
No 81

No shit. Who would?

Millennium · Mar 23, 2005, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by demograph68:
No shit. Who would?

Quite a few people, actually. I'm not necessarily one of them -truth be told, I haven't made a decision on that- but the idea that "no one would want this" stems from a flawed assumption that everyone views a persistent vegetative state as some kind of horrible imprisonment or close enough to death that it may as well be.

That's the problem with taking the question "would you want to live in such a state?" and trying to project those beliefs onto Schiavo or anyone else. The idea of wanting to live or die in such a state doesn't occur in a vacuum; it depends on many other beliefs and values, not all of which are universal. Whether or not I would want to live in such a state is irrelevant to Schiavo's case, for the simple reason that I am not Terri Schiavo. The same holds true for anyone else except Schiavo herself.

von Wrangell · Mar 23, 2005, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
The same holds true for anyone else except Schiavo herself.

I hope you are including politicians in this statement.

And I think that her husband should have something to say about it(because she can't).

ebuddy · Mar 23, 2005, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by von Wrangell:
I hope you are including politicians in this statement.

And I think that her husband should have something to say about it(because she can't).

That's just it Von, you can't say a woman wants to live a long life, give me lots of money to facilitate this long life, then use the money on lawyers to help you deny the woman the care you were awarded to help her with. I mean, IMHO. This is not the opinion of the Judicial system, but it obviously made a mistake somewhere. Was it in awarding this scumbag a couple million dollars to help Terri live a long life or was it to pay for legal defense in killing her??? The whole thing is twisted up and Michael Schiavo makes my spider senses peak out. Either she wanted to live or she wanted to die. The time to have mentioned the whole "she said she wanted to die" would've been before the millions awarded him at the beginning of all this. Why is this a problem??? Because she has no defense, Michael is engaged in a conflict of interest and frankly his character should be in question, and investigated. Unfortunately, even when Terri dies this is long from over.

von Wrangell · Mar 23, 2005, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by ebuddy:
That's just it Von, you can't say a woman wants to live a long life, give me lots of money to facilitate this long life, then use the money on lawyers to help you deny the woman the care you were awarded to help her with. I mean, IMHO. This is not the opinion of the Judicial system, but it obviously made a mistake somewhere. Was it in awarding this scumbag a couple million dollars to help Terri live a long life or was it to pay for legal defense in killing her??? The whole thing is twisted up and Michael Schiavo makes my spider senses peak out. Either she wanted to live or she wanted to die. The time to have mentioned the whole "she said she wanted to die" would've been before the millions awarded him at the beginning of all this. Why is this a problem??? Because she has no defense, Michael is engaged in a conflict of interest and frankly his character should be in question, and investigated. Unfortunately, even when Terri dies this is long from over.

It could also be that he believed at the beginning that she would recover(I haven't read too much about this though so I'm not sure what happened and when) and therefor he couldn't decide if he should fight to keep her alive in this state or if he should allow her to die. It's no easy decision.

I'm just glad something like this isn't a problem in the part of the world where I live.

Moderator · 09:23 AM

I'd cry but I'd have to put a condom on my face -Jon Stewart

Seriously would one Bush backer please explain why it is Bush signed into law in Texas the bill that enables hospitals to stop feeding patients in similar conditions...if they can't pay the health insurance costs..

you know...the one invoked last week to "kill" a baby

ahh that culture of life

..this has got to be a bad dream.

zizban · Mar 23, 2005, 06:42 PM

Its all twisted and sick.

Dimethyltrypt · Mar 23, 2005, 08:14 PM

pretty much OT, but can someone tell me what's wrong with this graph?

mikellanes · Mar 23, 2005, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:
pretty much OT, but can someone tell me what's wrong with this graph?

Is this a trick question

docbud · Mar 23, 2005, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:
pretty much OT, but can someone tell me what's wrong with this graph?

well--I think what's wrong with it is that it looks misleading.

Most polls don't go the 1, 2, 3, 4.... thing. And if you were to make a pie graph of it, it would appear a lot closer. As would a graph going by 10.

I don't understand how the 62% to 54% thing can be reflected as shown here. It's misleading.

d

Zimphire · Mar 23, 2005, 10:08 PM

docbud · Mar 23, 2005, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

As is that post.

Zimphire · Mar 23, 2005, 10:25 PM

A silly for a silly!

docbud · Mar 23, 2005, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
A silly for a silly!

zizban · Mar 23, 2005, 11:20 PM

In Before More Silliness

Kilbey · Mar 24, 2005, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by zizban:
In Before More Silliness

Zimphire · Mar 24, 2005, 07:36 AM

Dimethyltrypt · Mar 24, 2005, 08:59 AM

what about the CNN poll graph, Zimph and Kiljoy?

Moderator · Mar 24, 2005, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by Moderator:
Seriously would one Bush backer please explain why it is Bush signed into law in Texas the bill that enables hospitals to stop feeding patients in similar conditions...if they can't pay the health insurance costs..

you know...the one invoked last week to "kill" a baby

ahh that culture of life

..this has got to be a bad dream.

does anyone have the balls to respond to this...

christ · Mar 24, 2005, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
Quite a few people, actually. I'm not necessarily one of them -truth be told, I haven't made a decision on that- but the idea that "no one would want this" stems from a flawed assumption that everyone views a persistent vegetative state as some kind of horrible imprisonment or close enough to death that it may as well be.

That's the problem with taking the question "would you want to live in such a state?" and trying to project those beliefs onto Schiavo or anyone else. The idea of wanting to live or die in such a state doesn't occur in a vacuum; it depends on many other beliefs and values, not all of which are universal. Whether or not I would want to live in such a state is irrelevant to Schiavo's case, for the simple reason that I am not Terri Schiavo. The same holds true for anyone else except Schiavo herself.

And yet, in a Democracy, the (slim) majority gets to decide for everyone, including the large minority on just about everything else.

Death Penalty? Majority decides

War? Majority decides

Political Football Ms Schiavo? - It must be up to the individual, no-one can decide for anyone else ...

christ · Mar 24, 2005, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by ebuddy:
...This is not the opinion of the Judicial system, but it obviously made a mistake somewhere...

Yup, that's right - the Judicial system disagrees with you, it must be a mistake. Especially if it disagrees with you on nine or ten separate occasions.

Kilbey · Mar 24, 2005, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:
what about the CNN poll graph, Zimph and Kiljoy?

CNN a tad liberal...

They have a margin of error of +-7%.

How awful.

Your point? Which I know you are drooling to make.

zizban · Mar 24, 2005, 10:36 AM

Here's Tom DeLay comparing Terry Schaivo's situation to this own:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...0.html?cnn=yes

spacefreak · Mar 24, 2005, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by Moderator:
does anyone have the balls to respond to this...

Start a new friggin thread if you want to discuss it. It's really not that difficult to do.

Perhaps it's not obvious to you that your constant whining about a Texas law passed in the 90s does not affect this unique and specific 2005 Florida case.

christ · Mar 24, 2005, 01:18 PM

It should be obvious by now that Dubya is right.

Questioning anything that he does is anti-American, and this should stop immediately.

Disagreeing with Dubya should be a capital offence - that would sort out all this lefty whining.

macintologist · Mar 24, 2005, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by christ:
It should be obvious by now that Dubya is right.

Questioning anything that he does is anti-American, and this should stop immediately.

Disagreeing with Dubya should be a capital offence - that would sort out all this lefty whining.

It's this kind of fascist-socialism that the neocons are trying to push forward in America. Anybody who expresses dissent towards the growing reach and scope of the federal gov't, and of the growing welfare state is automatically an enemy of the state.

finboy · Mar 24, 2005, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by macintologist:
It's this kind of fascist-socialism that the neocons are trying to push forward in America. Anybody who expresses dissent towards the growing reach and scope of the federal gov't, and of the growing welfare state is automatically an enemy of the state.

Get the tinfoil hats!

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

osxpinot · Mar 24, 2005, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by ebuddy:
That's just it Von, you can't say a woman wants to live a long life, give me lots of money to facilitate this long life, then use the money on lawyers to help you deny the woman the care you were awarded to help her with. I mean, IMHO. This is not the opinion of the Judicial system, but it obviously made a mistake somewhere. Was it in awarding this scumbag a couple million dollars to help Terri live a long life or was it to pay for legal defense in killing her??? The whole thing is twisted up and Michael Schiavo makes my spider senses peak out. Either she wanted to live or she wanted to die. The time to have mentioned the whole "she said she wanted to die" would've been before the millions awarded him at the beginning of all this. Why is this a problem??? Because she has no defense, Michael is engaged in a conflict of interest and frankly his character should be in question, and investigated. Unfortunately, even when Terri dies this is long from over.

Perhaps, Michael wanted to see the situation through as he might not be sure of the outcome. Countless years and evaluations later he discovers his wife's situation is futile, and she told him she didn't want to live *that* way. You can't condemn the man for waiting the situation out or suing somebody. And furthermore, he wasn't award millions. He was personally awarded 300k, and she was awarded 700k of which only 50k remains.

von Wrangell · Mar 24, 2005, 09:33 PM

Well I've been reading a bit about this case and I have to say that those who want to keep her alive need to seriously question their beliefs. It's nothing but cruelty to keep her alive.

She's suffered atrophy in 70-90% of her cortex and is in a permanent vegetative state. And to side with people who have said the following is just unbelievable.

CHIAVO: If I moved on with my life � and I moved on with a portion of it � but I still have a big commitment to Terri. I made her a promise.

And another reason why I won't give Terri back is that Mr. Schindler testified in court, at the 2000 trial, that he would � to keep Terri alive he would cut her arms and legs off and put her on a ventilator just to keep her alive.

So why would I give her to a man that would do that to you?

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=584124&page=1

Her parents have to just let her go. This is as inhumane as it goes.

osxpinot · Mar 24, 2005, 10:40 PM

How is did it inhumane to let her live? She feels nothing.

villalobos · Mar 25, 2005, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by osxpinot:
How is did it inhumane to let her live? She feels nothing.

It's not inhuman, but it is very selfish from the parents. Terri has nothing to gain out of staying alive. The parents somehow feel better if she is alive. It's about them, not her. That is very sad.

osxpinot · Mar 25, 2005, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by villalobos:
It's not inhuman, but it is very selfish from the parents. Terri has nothing to gain out of staying alive. The parents somehow feel better if she is alive. It's about them, not her. That is very sad.

I agree. I was playing devil's advocate.

Dimethyltrypt · Mar 25, 2005, 02:03 AM

there's money involved,.... http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ey-cover_x.htm

zizban · Mar 25, 2005, 01:13 PM

When my parents got into a car accident, my father died and my mom stayed in a permanent vegetative state. She inherinted from my father a lot of money but when it came time to decide whether to pull her tube or not, none us in the family thought the money. None. Irrelevant. Her condition and suffering was top most in our minds, her money was unimportant. If you think her husband is motivted by money, then you are in sad shape.

My mom died shortly after our decision making process began, btw, thank God.

Spliffdaddy · Mar 25, 2005, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Start a new friggin thread if you want to discuss it. It's really not that difficult to do.

Perhaps it's not obvious to you that your constant whining about a Texas law passed in the 90s does not affect this unique and specific 2005 Florida case.

*SMACKDOWN*

spacefreak · Mar 25, 2005, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
*SMACKDOWN*

Hey... what's up? I haven't seen you around these parts for a while. I hope all is well with you.

osxpinot · Mar 26, 2005, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:
there's money involved,.... http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ey-cover_x.htm

Yeah that's 50,000 left in her fund. We're talk millions here.

Flashbang · Mar 26, 2005, 01:08 PM

If Mr. Schiavo simply divorced her the parents could assume custody. Problem solved.

Scott Peterson must be shaking his head saying, "some guys have all the luck..."

In the debate over whether to pull or reinsert the feeding tube maybe they should subpoena Ms. Schiavo herself and ask her what she wants.

In a related development from only minutes ago.

03/26/2005 10:21:30 EST
Schiavo's Parents Say She Tried to Speak
By MIKE SCHNEIDER
Associated Press Writer

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - After a federal appeals court panel rebuffed them yet again, Terri Schiavo's parents made another desperate attempt to keep their brain-damaged daughter alive, telling a judge that she tried to say "I want to live" just minutes before her feeding tube was removed a week ago.

Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer was expected to announce a decision by noon Saturday on the motion by Bob and Mary Schindler claiming their daughter said "AHHHHH" and "WAAAAAAA" when asked to repeat the phrase "I want to live."

Could the parents be wrong?

Another report interprets Terri's "AHHHHH" and "WAAAAAAA" to mean, "what does a girl have to do to get a corned beef sandwich around here?"

Zimphire · Mar 26, 2005, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by macintologist:
It's this kind of fascist-socialism that the neocons are trying to push forward in America. Anybody who expresses dissent towards the growing reach and scope of the federal gov't, and of the growing welfare state is automatically an enemy of the state.

Just like the left does? Anyone that doesn't get in line with their plans, is out to do America harm...

Just like what you women are doing now.

Spliffdaddy · Mar 26, 2005, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Hey... what's up? I haven't seen you around these parts for a while. I hope all is well with you.

oh yeah, just chillin. haven't done much in the last 4 months. about to start building a house in order to kill some time.

work hard. avoid debt. vote Republican. retire young.

gonna have those words on my tombstone.

Kilbey · Mar 27, 2005, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
oh yeah, just chillin. haven't done much in the last 4 months. about to start building a house in order to kill some time.

work hard. avoid debt. vote Republican. retire young.

gonna have those words on my tombstone.

Excellent motto. Would work good in a signature too