[birdman]

I'm making small signs with people's names for a trade show. The names are in 96-point Adobe Garamond Bold (sorry, I didn't have a choice in the font ). One of the names has a double f, so I considered using the ligature from Adobe Garamond Expert. I think it looks fine with the ligature.

But, I'm worried that my non-designer boss/self-taught-self-proclaimed designer boss will think the ligature is a mistake because the second f is slightly taller, which is more noticeable at this large size. He'll probably accuse me of changing fonts or sizes on the second f and want to go with just two f's next to each other. Mind you, I don't know for sure that he will respond this way, but I've been working here almost three years and know his tastes pretty well (hence using Garamond Bold for display type), and this seems to me the kind of thing he would not only notice immediately, but also consider a mistake.

Here is the text in question:



I'm wondering if the top example (just two f's next to each other) really isn't that bad and I only prefer the bottom version because I was taught to use ligatures and naturally look for such things. Should I take a chance and use the ligature even though my boss might think it looks wrong? Again, the only thing that might tip him off is the fact that the second f in the ligature is slightly taller. I'd rather not hear another "maybe that's what they teach you in college but it looks like crap."

I'm just curious if the fine folks here care about ligatures or not. I don't usually worry about it in 10 or 12 point text unless it's noticeable, but at 96 points it jumped out at me. I'll just show him the signs and see if he catches it. But with my luck, he won't notice the ff ligature until he's actually at the trade show, at which point it will be too late but he'll still care enough to point it out to me later.

-birdman

[micahgartman]

One word: kerning
mg

[birdman]

I should've mentioned, I tried kerning too -- but I only tried reducing the space. Here's what it looks like with -5% kerning between the f's:



Then it occurred to me that perhaps the problem wasn't that they weren't close enough, but rather they were too close, whereas the other letters are spaced farther apart. I think this might be a viable solution:



That's with +3% kerning between the f's.

-birdman

[Thorzdad]

I would always go ahead with the ligatures. They are, after all, the correct method. If someone objects, you can always change them back. My guess is no one will notice.

And, if your "self-taught-self-proclaimed designer boss" says something, you can always try the schmoozing route...speak to him "designer to designer" about how lovely and readable ligatures make text...and how it's one of those little secrets that "professionals" use. L

[CaptainHaddock]

It's much nicer with the ligatures. The two effs are different heights because they look better that way, and you can be sure the type designer did a lot of experimenting and testing in that regard.

[Timo]

Ligatures

[birdman]

Oh, I agree, the ligature looks nice, especially when I properly kern the e-r-t letters. I'll go with that and see if he says anything...

Thanks for the feedback.

-birdman

[mydog8mymac]

I try to use ligatures whenever it's possible (some cheap typefaces don't have them).

birdman, how'd this turn out? Inquiring minds and all.

[birdman]

Oh, we won't know until later this week. I'm not sure when this particular person's poster will be put up. Mwahaha.

-birdman

[andi*pandi]

late to the party... yay to the ligatures... but I would have kerned some space into the t and the y.

your boss sounds like a grade A PITA!

[alligator]

Not to sound dumb, but what is or are "ligatures"?

[himself]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

late to the party... yay to the ligatures... but I would have kerned some space into the t and the y.

your boss sounds like a grade A PITA!

Some typefaces have comprehensive ligature sets where there are ligatures for letter combinations like "ty". That said, I think he would have to increase the kerning everywhere to balance out any space added between the "t" and "y".

re alligator:
a ligature is a single character that is made of at least two individual letters. For example: if you press the keys option+shift+5 you will get the "fi" ligature (fi), option+shift+6 will get you "fl" (fl), option+' gets you the "æ" ligature. You'll need expert fonts to get more than that (like "ff", "ffi", "ffl", and more), but they are good for nitpicky designers and typesetters who want to avoid clumsy letter collisions.

[alligator]

So where does one learn about ligatures and how to use them correctly? The original poster indicated he always uses them because he was taught that way.

[birdman]

Although I don't always trust Wikipedia, the article on ligatures seems to cover the topic pretty well: ligatures (typography). I learned about them in typography class in college, probably with the books for that class too.

-birdman

[tpicco]

why not print out the wikipedia article to be ready if your boss continues to be an asshole?

[MrsLarry]

hate to go against the group - i am only a newbie, but i gotta go with no ligature, i like the readjustment with the kerning that you did. The common person will just not get it, and if the boss questions it, you have to explain it, and if you have to explain it, it loses its nuance.

[PiperH]

Haven't read the Wikipedia entry so maybe this is a repetition. The f ligatures really come from the days of metal type when the ascender of the f protruded from the body of the letter and so couldn't physically be set next to another ascender. (Linotype machines couldn't cope with that so they designed squashed up f's or used ligatures).
Seeing as all that is history we're left with the tricky ligature question. Personally, though depending on the font, I like them. They're usually more elegant and the only time I don't use them is with justified setting when you might get a horribly spaced out word with two close letters.
Be picky - be a proper designer.
Then flatter your boss - tell him that as a true professional he will appreciate the difference.

[Thorzdad]

Originally Posted by MrsLarry

hate to go against the group - i am only a newbie, but i gotta go with no ligature, i like the readjustment with the kerning that you did. The common person will just not get it, and if the boss questions it, you have to explain it, and if you have to explain it, it loses its nuance.

Not to pick on you, MrsLarry, but I think you illustrate the problem here. In the past, ligatures were simply automatically done. It was the proper way type is set. Because it was all done in the background by trained professionals (the typesetters...bless 'em) the "common person" simply didn't have to even acknowlege them. In fact, they were unaware of them. They just read the text, unaware of how easily a properly set text flows thanks to the typesetter's tricks (like ligatures)
Fast forward to today. You now have situations like birdman's where an untrained individual (his boss) is making micro-managing edicts about things that he really shouldn't even be concerning himself about. Yes, when isolated and examined on their own, ligatures look strange. But when viewed in context, the ligatures disappear. They blend into, and assist, the smooth, visual flow of text. It's one of those things that "common people" shouldn't even be made aware of. It isn't a decorative addition. It's the proper method of typesetting.

[PiperH]

I dunno about this 'common people' stuff and there isn't any 'proper method' any more. We're technology led I think and we're adapting the old rules as we go along, influenced by tradition and by the new possibilities. Remember Gutenberg wanted his typesetting to look as much as possible like scribe writing.
Also, the bit of text in question is in 96pt, so people WILL notice. I say, if the ligature's nicer, use it. If it ain't, don't.