[Kerrigan]

VW I have to admire you for holding such an indefensible position in the face of an opposition that is steadily growing.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Busemann

To put it another way, why isn't Africa packed full of terrorists if your argument was true?

I can't think of any international terrorist act over the past century that have been perpetuated by Africans

Never heard of LRA?

Anyway, a quick google search gives these results among many other.

http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr113.html
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/rm/2004/31077.htm


There are a lot more but no matter how often I show you guys it you ignore it.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

VW I have to admire you for holding such an indefensible position in the face of an opposition that is steadily growing.

What "indefensible position"?

[Busemann]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Never heard of LRA?

Anyway, a quick google search gives these results among many other.

http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr113.html
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/rm/2004/31077.htm


There are a lot more but no matter how often I show you guys it you ignore it.

Those links actually prove my point.

"Islam" is a hint.

[Spliffdaddy]

ouch

smacked down by his own hand


*begins the standing 10 count*

one.....two.....

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Busemann

Those links actually prove my point.

"Islam" is a hint.

It surprises you that two articles from the US gov focus in Islamic terrorism? Why should the US government attack their own base (US fundamentalist Christianity)?

Ever heard of LRA?

[Spliffdaddy]

three....four....

"do you know where you are, sir?"

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

placebo, you never answered this IIRC.

I thought I had addressed the issue when I said that the topic of the thread was about the Muslim reaction to cartoons in a Danish newspaper. However, I will look into those issues.

Interestingly, about a year and half (I'm not sure), in church (Episopalian) they were talking about the Muslim abuse against Christians in the Sudan. Not to mention all the Lost Boys of the Sudan. I have met a few in my line of work.

[Busemann]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Ever heard of LRA?

Lords Resistance Army? Sure.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Busemann

Lords Resistance Army? Sure.

Are they terrorists in your opinion?

[Spliffdaddy]

Well, it's a small miracle that the polarized flag wavers from both the left and the right have reached a mutual agreement. They all agree that vW is wrong.

It's so uncommon to see us all in the same room without anybody throwing a punch.

*high-fives a leftie*

[Spliffdaddy]

Kudos to vW for single-handedly fighting all comers. It can't be an easy thing to do.

[Kerrigan]

Yes, unfortunately he hasn't been able to convince anyone that Islam is good.

[Busemann]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Are they terrorists in your opinion?

They use violence to reach their religious goals. But they're confined to Uganda, and was not created because of "poverty or lack of education".

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Yes, unfortunately he hasn't been able to convince anyone that Islam is good.

He damn sure is trying tho.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Busemann

They use violence to reach their religious goals.

Which is usually called terrorism today wouldn't you agree?

[Kerrigan]

You can talk until up is down, but it is just too obvious that every country Islam touches turns into crap. This is an inescapable truth.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

You can talk until up is down, but it is just too obvious that every country Islam touches turns into crap. This is an inescapable truth.

Touches in what way?

[yakkiebah]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Well, it's a small miracle that the polarized flag wavers from both the left and the right have reached a mutual agreement. They all agree that vW is wrong.

It's so uncommon to see us all in the same room without anybody throwing a punch.

*high-fives a leftie*

It appears as if they hate Europe more then the US, i mean when was the last time you saw an outrage of such a scale like this over Guantanamo Bay?

I remember opposing Americans in almost any thread over the last few years regarding the war in Iraq en the war on terror. I guess Bush was right afterall, they do hate our freedom.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Which is usually called terrorism today wouldn't you agree?

So?

You are missing the point. You are welcome to criticize that. Nobody will speak out death-threats against you. Nobody will boycott Icelandic products because of your criticism.

[Kerrigan]

"Touches in what way?" Do you guys see what I'm saying here? The nile is more than a river, although it does run deep.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by yakkiebah

It appears as if they hate Europe more then the US, i mean when was the last time you saw an outrage of such a scale like this over Guantanamo Bay?

Europe is an easier target than the USA and I'm sure the extremists see Europe as weak, and besides there's many more islamic extremists and terrorists in Europe than there are in the US, that is a fact by the way. People have been saying for a long time that certain European countries will have big problems in the future and meanwhile dumb as crap Europeans were busy moaning about Bush the nazi (their words) and how terrible the USA is. We'll see who gets the last laugh.

[Kerrigan]

The latest is that a Palestinian gunman kidnapped a German over the cartoons.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Yes, unfortunately he hasn't been able to convince anyone that Islam is good.

Islam in and of itself isn't bad. It's what peope do with it that is bad.

(Did I just say that? I sound like Zimphy defending fundamentalist Christians.)

Right now, there are a lot of Muslims who see violence as an acceptable response to any and every problem they encounter. It's a phase most major religions go through in their growth and development--Millenium made a VERY insighftul post along these lines in one of many previous "Islam is bad" threads--and the Muslims who espouse such views based on their religion need to be smacked down and told their actions are not acceptable, at least not in a secular, Westernized country.

It really is time for Muslims around the world to take a stand on the issue of "violence as solution to perceived threats" and categorically renounce violent means when confronting those they disagree with.

Those of you living in Europe need to ask your governments to remove any anti-blasphemy laws from their books to make it unquestioningly clear that the state should NOT be involved in religious issues. Muslims in Europe have to learn they can practice and enjoy their faith within the confines of a secular society and where their religious beliefs conflict with secular practices they MUST give way and allow secular practices, like freedom of speech, to be dominant. Or, they can choose to move to a country where their religious beliefs are acceptable for determining government actions.

[swrate]

one Jordanian paper reprinted them urging Muslims to "be reasonable".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4673908.stm


read also 100 people might be out of jobs because of the boycott on Danish goods.
edited: changed link

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

The latest is that a Palestinian gunman kidnapped a German over the cartoons.

The leader of Hezbollah in Lebanon commented that no-one would dare to insult Muslims today had the death fatwa been carried out against author Salman Rushdie over his 1988 novel The Satanic Verses.

Yeah, too bad they haven't managed to kill that guy yet, nobody would dare insult any Muslims today if that had happened.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by swrate

100 people might be out of jobs because of the boycott on Danish goods.

That is the right of the Muslim countries to do so. Just like it is the right of Western countries to demand that Muslims adhere to the secular rules of society. I don't like it but neither do I like the Muslim world's response to the printing of the cartoons.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

That is the right of the Muslim countries to do so.

Sure, and a boycott can go both ways also.

[Kerrigan]

George Washington may offer us a little advice on this topic. In his day people had all sorts of elaborate reasons to explain the violence in Ireland, but he expressed the root of the problem more plainly than any of his contemporaries when he noted: "Ireland's problem is religious" (paraphrase).

Likewise, the problem in the Middle East and with Muslim immigrants is primarily religious. It hasn't got to do with natural resources, or economic conditions, or changing political trends. These things no doubt set the stage for trouble, but it is the religious element which has pushed Islam over the top.

[Busemann]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Islam in and of itself isn't bad. It's what peope do with it that is bad.

Islam, like Christianity, is a competition-based religion because of its inherent goal of expansion, and the goal of extreme Islamists is to create a hegemony for their violent interpretation of the Koran. What's alarming is how rapidly they've strengthened the view of US and Europe as a common enemy, and therefore gaining support for their religious views. It's pretty surprising to see all the commotion over these cartoons, and I somewhow doubt it could have happened only a few years earlier.

The west weren't really doing itself any favors with its military interventions in the regions either, as the problems it was meant to solve have worsened. More people feel violated, and more people want revenge.

Pretty sad to still see people thinking poverty is the cause.

[Jens Peter]

This readers comment was printet today in a danish newspaper:

Sorry, for providing you with new homes and help.
Sorry, for giving you an education.
Sorry, for helping you financially.
Sorry, for letting you practice your religion in our Christian country.
Sorry, for sending financial help to your countries.
Sorry, for not demanding blood-revenge for the murder of our countrymen committed by muslims.
Sorry, for not running around with explosives on our body when we feel intimidated.
Sorry, for not doing as your religion says.

But to say sorry for expressing ourselves in our own country after our own rules - never.

And, as TETENAL pointet out, that delegation who brought the pictures to the muslim world started all this. And the danish social system provides them with a home, money, school, health care etc. and who do they say 'thank you' ?

Perhaps it wasn't always easy to be a muslim in Denmark - but this make it very much worse!

[Y3a]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/Mic...rkert60119.htm

Interesting.......

For centuries, Islam was spread at the edge of a scimitar; a large curved sword favored by Muslim warriors. As Muslim armies rode hard and fast over the Middle East, North Africa, Asia, and Europe, they spread slaughter, slavery, cruelty by way of the most unspeakable tortures, wherever they rode. All in the name of Allah!

At one point during the 17th century, the Muslim conquerors were at the gates of Vienna. They had come a great distance from their Middle Eastern origins. Primarily Turkish armies stormed European lands, and overran such Balkan nations as modern day Albania, Bulgaria, Kosovo, Bosnia, Romania and Hungary. We all know of the stories of “Count Dracula” said to be a vampire.

The origins of this story however, have nothing to do with biting anybody, or drinking human blood. The original “Dracula” was a Romanian Prince named Vlad Dracul. History also records his name as “Vlad the Impaler.” Before you cringe and think how nasty this guy was, you have to understand that Vlad was in actuality fighting against barbarous and brutal Muslims. The Turks, at the urging of the Mullahs and Imams and other Islamic “holy men,” imposed the most barbarous tortures and horrible executions on Christian Romania. The tortures and cruelties are beyond our imagination! In the name of Allah, there was no slack cut for any Christian or Jew in old Romania.

Vlad quickly learned that the only way to combat the barbarous and bloodthirsty Muslim conquerors was to be more cruel and vicious than they were! He used the very texts of the Koran to fight the hated Islamic invaders. By using instructions he found in the Koran, he defeated the Islamic menace! Using Islamic methods of cruelty, Romanians were able to force the beaten Islamic armies out of their country.

They saved themselves from ensuing centuries of illiteracy, squalor and Islamic idiocy. To this day, Vlad Dracul is a national hero in Romania. I saw for myself, his portrait adorning the ceilings at both the National Opera Houses in Bucharest as well as in Timisoara, the two most significant cities in Romania.

[placebo1969]

Not sure if this was posted. But a Muslim group in the UK has called for the killing of anyone who "insult the Prophet Muhammad"

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Islam in and of itself isn't bad.

I disagree.

And this is where you're going wrong in your assumptions, this is how they're gaining footholds in our societies - by us believing that they're just another harmless "exotic" religion similar to Hinduism or Buddhism. Don't step foot on that slippery slope.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

You can talk until up is down, but it is just too obvious that every country Islam touches turns into crap. This is an inescapable truth.

I wouldn't think so. The more important point is, how modern and distinct/private would the country embed their religion (I'm surely missing the right english words). Countries like Turkey or even some of the smaller arabic-muslim like Quatar (?) or asian-muslim countries like Singapor have good chances there...

Regards
PB.

[Doofy]

So, I found this:

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Doofy

So, I found this:

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

Yeah, I think I posted that a few days ago. Some Danish newspapers were linking to that site also and it got so much traffic that it was down for awhile, and others have set up mirrors for that site.

Here's another interesting and funny link: Dutch Mohammed Photoshop Contest -

http://retecool.com/comments.php?id=13539_0_1_0_C

[swrate]

Adding oil to the fire,



Sorry, for providing you with oil


fuel, petrol, benzine, kerosene.............



imo depicting the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as a terrorist is MUCH worse then those ^ Turkish, Persian representations btw considered offensive by many, and justifies anger (not violence).
Double entendre, the twisted message delivered to Muslim youth is about humiliation and may be an incitation to violence, « Muslim, you are a terrorist » , -so you might as well go with the accredited concept, it's OK, just the mirror of our global bad opinion of Islam.

The extreme Muslim radicals forgot the success of cartoons mocking Jews in newspapers in their areas, and blew out of proportion the lack of respect shown through caricatures, whereas the press blew out of proportion the lack of respect to their freedom. Interested sharks.

The debate is open but bad timing, explosive atmosphere and clumsiness could turn the propaganda into a tragedy. Radical political Islamic parties use profanation as an excuse to recruit massively over the following months, while the Media abuses the vulnerable (religion in this case) to make profits, by putting the freedom of speech polemic up.

Religion has less to do here then respect. Or lack of respect. It’s the terrorist cliché, used and abused once again.

We have reactions after films, from one side or another, I.e. lately « Munich » or « The Passion » or books or shows ie: Dieudonné's shows censored after many provocations towards Jewish people, is labelled anti-Semitic.
Reactions after outrages are normal; freedom of speech does not mean to incite violence, nor to lack respect nor to spread ignorance.
I relate this blasphemy to nazi evocations btw often censored in EU, (book covers or film adverts, arm band with swastiska.....) It's not OK to be nazi as it's not OK to be a Muslim terrorist.

Somehow it also reminds me of threads here about « limits to be held », i.e. publicity for soda sipping, or aber deen 's idea behind the dbowie dbate .
Zowie, oui, I see danger, those cartoons are an incitation to retaliate with bombs.


Discreetly exp(l)osed.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by swrate

Zowie, oui, I see danger, those cartoons are an incitation to retaliate with bombs.

Bring it on I say.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Meh, this is much ado about nothing.

my advice to you swarte: get over yourself - you are only insulted if you want to be. It only shows lack of discipline.

This goes for any follower of Mohammed who is still offended after Jyllands Posten apologized. This - the depictations of Mohammed - did not belong in a newpaper of that caliber or respect as the JP and they have thusly apologized.

Expect more of these cartoons to appear in less prestigious papers. all over the world.

That's just the way it is. You can go get mad and upset and talk about disrespect. Well, respect has to be earned.

cheers

W-Y

[Taliesin]

dp.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by vmarks

And there we have it- the justification that everyone who believes in one G-d is a Muslim.

You Jews, you Christians? You're really Muslims, nevermind that whole declaration that Mohammed is his prophet thing -- Taliesin said so!

It's not me saying it, it's the arabic language saying so. "Muslim" is arabic for "someone devoted to God", and you can't deny that Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and many other prophets and at least some of their followers were and are "devoted to God", and therefore muslims.

You don't have to act offended because of the arabic language.

Taliesin

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

It's not me saying it, it's the arabic language saying so. "Muslim" is arabic for "someone devoted to God", and you can't deny that Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and many other prophets and at least some of their followers were and are "devoted to God", and therefore muslims.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. According to your interesting definition, George Bush is also a Muslim.

[Weyland-Yutani]

A related question: Since Islam has more than one prophet going on (Jesus, Moses..) are depictations of them also forbidden or is it just Mohammed? If so, why just him?

Also on the definition of Moslems being those devoted to God, why do Moslems not consider Christians and Jews to be Moslems too? They sometimes refer to them as the people of the Book, but not Moslems.

cheers

W-Y

[Weyland-Yutani]

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=181647

Also going on: Moslems storm the Danish embassy in Indonesia shouting trite such as "Let's kill the ambassador" and "Jihad, let us declare a holy war".

Respect has to be earned. This only makes Moslems seem stupid and retarded. A mindless mob. Granted there was no violence and the weapons used were eggs and tomatoes and such.

cheers

W-Y

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Y3a

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/Mic...rkert60119.htm

Interesting.......

For centuries, Islam was spread at the edge of a scimitar; a large curved sword favored by Muslim warriors. As Muslim armies rode hard and fast over the Middle East, North Africa, Asia, and Europe, they spread slaughter, slavery, cruelty by way of the most unspeakable tortures, wherever they rode. All in the name of Allah!

At one point during the 17th century, the Muslim conquerors were at the gates of Vienna. They had come a great distance from their Middle Eastern origins. Primarily Turkish armies stormed European lands, and overran such Balkan nations as modern day Albania, Bulgaria, Kosovo, Bosnia, Romania and Hungary. We all know of the stories of “Count Dracula” said to be a vampire.

The origins of this story however, have nothing to do with biting anybody, or drinking human blood. The original “Dracula” was a Romanian Prince named Vlad Dracul. History also records his name as “Vlad the Impaler.” Before you cringe and think how nasty this guy was, you have to understand that Vlad was in actuality fighting against barbarous and brutal Muslims. The Turks, at the urging of the Mullahs and Imams and other Islamic “holy men,” imposed the most barbarous tortures and horrible executions on Christian Romania. The tortures and cruelties are beyond our imagination! In the name of Allah, there was no slack cut for any Christian or Jew in old Romania.

Vlad quickly learned that the only way to combat the barbarous and bloodthirsty Muslim conquerors was to be more cruel and vicious than they were! He used the very texts of the Koran to fight the hated Islamic invaders. By using instructions he found in the Koran, he defeated the Islamic menace! Using Islamic methods of cruelty, Romanians were able to force the beaten Islamic armies out of their country.

They saved themselves from ensuing centuries of illiteracy, squalor and Islamic idiocy. To this day, Vlad Dracul is a national hero in Romania. I saw for myself, his portrait adorning the ceilings at both the National Opera Houses in Bucharest as well as in Timisoara, the two most significant cities in Romania.

You are funny and rediculing yourself at the same time, and the best is, you are not aware of it. What you practice here is "filtered perception".


But I'm friendly and will help you along to some more wisdom: Humans are fallible, empires are well conquering and brutal, that shouldn't be surprising at all, and yes there are even empires that justify themselves with religion. The idea behind empires using religion for secular goals was off course to gather enough recruits, and for the religious crowd, the justification to use force to spread religion was off course to save many people from hell, who would have otherwise continued with what in their eyes were false religions.

It's by far not singular to Islam, it was even more so in the case of christianity.

Radical Islamism is fond of these old days, but they have neither the means nor support for a comeback of that ideology. Even in countries that were or are under the regime of radical islamists like for example Afghanistan under the Taliban or in Iran under the mullahs, nothing works in that direction or is even tried.

That's why these radical islamists merely try to keep what they have and get back what they lost, like the whole talk about liberating territory that was once "islamic" shows. Even that watereddown approach is not finding the support from the muslims they would wish for.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. According to your interesting definition, George Bush is also a Muslim.

And? Where is the problem with that?

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

A related question: Since Islam has more than one prophet going on (Jesus, Moses..) are depictations of them also forbidden or is it just Mohammed? If so, why just him?

Also on the definition of Moslems being those devoted to God, why do Moslems not consider Christians and Jews to be Moslems too? They sometimes refer to them as the people of the Book, but not Moslems.

cheers

W-Y

Yes, they refer to them as people of the book. But what most muslims don't realize is that the "usual" muslims are also "people of the book". The "book" is the revelation that God gave to us humans through the different messengers Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

In orthodox islamic tradition it is prohibited to depict anything, even normal humans or animals or landscapes, but espescially the prophet, for the fear of idolatry.

Taliesin

[aberdeenwriter]

Jakarta, 3 Feb. (AKI) - More than 200 Indonesian Muslims on Friday morning barged into a Jakarta building housing the Danish embassy, throwing eggs, smashing furniture and burning the Danish flag in protest at a series if cartoons, first published in a Danish newspaper, that many Muslims consider blasphemous. Police prevented the crowd from entering the embassy offices which are on the 25th floor and the protestors appeared to calm down after Danish officials started talking to them, local news reports said.

The protesters dispersed after an hour. There were no arrests.

On Thursday an Indonesian newspaper reproduced the cartoons first published last September by Denmark's Jyllands-Posten, and since republished in several newspapers across Europe.

The Indonesian government has condemned the cartoons and said it had expressed its concern to Denmark's envoy, foreign ministry spokesman Yuri Thamrin told a weekly news conference. He said that while Indonesia as a democracy respected press freedom, it rejected offensive material aimed at religious faiths.

In the Middle East the cartoons have caused outrage with Saudi Arabia and Syria recalling their ambassadors from Copenhagen, while consumers have been shunning Danish products.

The Danish government and others in Europe have defended the right to publish the cartoons in terms of laws protecting freedom of expression. Arab commentators have slammed such arguments, pointing to laws operating in some European countries to protect Judaism and Israel from criticism.

(Rak/Aki)

03-Feb-06 09:39


http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.ph...60304694&par=0

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

You can talk until up is down, but it is just too obvious that every country Islam touches turns into crap. This is an inescapable truth.

You can say the same about the countries touched by christianity, and that is as well an inescapable truth: The situation didn't improve until christianity was defeated by secularism.

Besides you are making the mistake of making a judgment now, without realizing that most of the current islamic states/nations exist for merely 60-80 years. History will show you that the US or any european state/nation was just as crap in its first century of existence.

It's the natural cycle of history.

Taliesin