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ajprice · Feb 21, 2006, 07:45 AM

http://www.wlextv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4449021

She is still alive, along with her 6 year old daughter who was also in the car. Both were wearing seat belts (why isn't it illegal not to wear seat belts in America?)

The arm was found near by, still holding the phone in the hand.

Insane.

Doofy · Feb 21, 2006, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by ajprice

(why isn't it illegal not to wear seat belts in America?)

Why is it illegal to not wear your seatbelt here? Because we live in a fascist state, that's why. Whether someone wears their seat belt or not is nothing to do with anyone else (except their guardian, or the person they're sitting behind).

analogika · Feb 21, 2006, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

we live in a fascist state

You're a ****ing idiot sometimes, Doofy.

RobOnTheCape · Feb 21, 2006, 08:28 AM

Nothing to do with anyone else? Check the ERs around your area and ask a nurse about the mangled bodies of those deciding not to wear seat belts. My wife sees them all the time. Car crash? As they come rolling in the staff will look and say "No seat belt on this one".

I guess it would be an individual choice if it didn't impact others, but no seat belts impact nurses, cops, the driver/occupants families, and also everyone else since the $ to treat the these people injured in car wrecks is much much higher. We pay in higher premiums, or taxes to fund those who have no health insurance.

Kevin · Feb 21, 2006, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

You're a ****ing idiot sometimes, Doofy.

That certainly doesn't make him an idiot. (The original poster did word it poorly. Not sure if he was intending to ask WHY isn't it illegal (it is) or why it should be illegal )

I suggest you stop before posting, and ask yourself "Is this post hateful?" if the answer is "yes" go back and re-write it.

I am doing this very thing as well.

Doofy · Feb 21, 2006, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

You're a ****ing idiot sometimes, Doofy.

Well, go on... ...tell me exactly how not wearing a seat belt is anything to do with anyone but the people in the vehicle in question and why exactly it needs legislation.

You know how old Adolf and Benito got into power in the first place? By people not recognising them for what they were and not seeing the warning signs.

Let's grab a Wiki quote about Benito:

He created a fascist state through the use of state terror and propaganda.

What, you mean like highlighting the terror threat in order to introduce ID cards which nobody wants?

Using his charisma,

Blair has nice hair, I'll give him that.

total control of the media

More gagging orders have been used in this current administration than in any previous one.

and intimidation of political rivals,

Yep.

he disassembled the existing democratic government system.

Arh. Like boundary changes to ensure that a 22.5% popular vote in enough to get into power, or by introducing postal voting which is far from anonymous (there's been instances of the Labour Party canvassing people who didn't vote for them after getting the information from the ballot).

It's all there. I'm sure that when someone said this in 1930 someone else also said "you're a ****ing idiot sometimes, Hans".

Kevin · Feb 21, 2006, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape

Nothing to do with anyone else? Check the ERs around your area and ask a nurse about the mangled bodies of those deciding not to wear seat belts. My wife sees them all the time. Car crash? As they come rolling in the staff will look and say "No seat belt on this one".

I guess it would be an individual choice if it didn't impact others, but no seat belts impact nurses, cops, the driver/occupants families, and also everyone else since the $ to treat the these people injured in car wrecks is much much higher. We pay in higher premiums, or taxes to fund those who have no health insurance.

What about the people that were killed because they were trapped?

I think wearing a belt is smart, but I think it should be up to each person.

Doofy · Feb 21, 2006, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

That certainly doesn't make him an idiot. (The original poster did word it poorly. Not sure if he was intending to ask WHY isn't it illegal (it is) or why it should be illegal )

For the record, I didn't misread it at all. I'm wondering why the OP is concentrating more on the fact that she was wearing a belt (the reverse of which wouldn't actually bother anyone but herself) than the fact she was using a phone whilst driving (which does affect those around her).

Originally Posted by Kevin

What about the people that were killed because they were trapped?

I have a friend who wouldn't be here today if he'd been wearing his seat belt - he'd be about a half-inch tall.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I think wearing a belt is smart, but I think it should be up to each person

Exactly. Nowt to do with the government. The poster above seems to think it's a problem for EMS and cops, but hey - if you don't like seeing mangled bodies don't go working in the emergency services.

Y3a · Feb 21, 2006, 08:42 AM

If you are using a Shoulder harness and Seatbelt, you stand a better chance of staying in the drivers seat and performing evasive actions. DUH! Same goes for Aerobatic airplane pilots. Sure, you DON'T WANT to wear your seatbelt, it could wrinkle your dress...

I keep both a pair of industrial scissors, and a 18" long chisle under my seat in case the belts/door keeps me in when I need to get out in a hurry due to fire etc. It's next to a fire extingusher. You guys never heard of planning for the worst?

Kevin · Feb 21, 2006, 08:47 AM

Y3a what about claustrophobic people that can't wear them?

I knew a gal that freaked out when she had to wear her seat-belt because it made her feel "trapped"

ajprice · Feb 21, 2006, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by ajprice

why isn't it illegal not to wear seat belts in America?

Originally Posted by Kevin

Not sure if he was intending to ask WHY isn't it illegal (it is) or why it should be illegal

Which post were you reading Kevin? The question I was asking (as an aside) was why isn't it illegal to not wear a seat belt... maybe the double negative confused you, I'll try again, although this question wasn't the point of the post.

Why is it legal to not wear a seat belt?

The last time I looked, wearing a seat belt was an option in America, not law. If this is a state by state thing to wear a seat belt by law, I don't know. I said they were wearing seat belts because if they weren't they probably would have been dead, thats all.

This wasn't a political thread at all, and I don't want it made into one. The subject is about the car crash and the woman and the arm with the phone in the hand. The seat belt comment was just that, a comment.

Doofy · Feb 21, 2006, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Y3a

If you are using a Shoulder harness and Seatbelt, you stand a better chance of staying in the drivers seat and performing evasive actions. DUH!

Incorrect. By the time the vehicle is physically in a position to throw you out of the seat it's too far gone to perform evasive manoeuvres anyways.
And I've personally been in a position where my driving has been limited by the seat belt not allowing me to observe the road quickly enough - by restricting my forwards movement so I couldn't shift forward to take a peek in the direction I wanted to. Drive a panel van for a couple of weeks, you'll see what I mean.

Originally Posted by Y3a

I keep both a pair of industrial scissors, and a 18" long chisle under my seat in case the belts/door keeps me in when I need to get out in a hurry due to fire etc. It's next to a fire extingusher. You guys never heard of planning for the worst?

My friend wouldn't have had time to reach for scissors. He had about a second to jump in the back of the vehicle. And having been upside down in a vehicle a few times, I can tell you that when you're in that position you ain't gonna know which way to grab for those scissors.

Sky Captain · Feb 21, 2006, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by ajprice

http://www.wlextv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4449021

She is still alive, along with her 6 year old daughter who was also in the car. Both were wearing seat belts (why isn't it illegal not to wear seat belts in America?)

The arm was found near by, still holding the phone in the hand.

Insane.

Seatbelt laws were not a product of the medical industry as so much a product of the auto insurance industry.
Mandantory seatbelts coupled with crushzone cars have cutdown on traffic fatalities and severe injuries.
Thus dropping payouts by the insurance ndustry.
But they continue to raise rates. They cut losses and raise rates.

Doofy · Feb 21, 2006, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by ajprice

Why is it legal to not wear a seat belt?

The last time I looked, wearing a seat belt was an option in America, not law. If this is a state by state thing to wear a seat belt by law, I don't know. I said they were wearing seat belts because if they weren't they probably would have been dead, thats all.

This wasn't a political thread at all, and I don't want it made into one.

Well sorry dude - you can't ask a question like that and expect to get an answer without it turning political... ...since laws are made by politicians and the nature of the subject is the definition of the political argument about the "nanny state".

Kevin · Feb 21, 2006, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by ajprice

Which post were you reading Kevin? The question I was asking (as an aside) was why isn't it illegal to not wear a seat belt... maybe the double negative confused you, I'll try again, although this question wasn't the point of the post.

The double negative didn't confuse me, I was pointing out how it COULD have been confusing.

Why is it legal to not wear a seat belt?

So you are asking how NOT wearing a seatbelt is legal. It's not in most states.

The last time I looked, wearing a seat belt was an option in America, not law. If this is a state by state thing to wear a seat belt by law, I don't know. I said they were wearing seat belts because if they weren't they probably would have been dead, thats all.

In most states it IS a law. The Gov pretty much forced it. Told the states that didn't adopt it that they wouldn't get as much funds for their roads etc. This happened in the 90s

Montezuma58 · Feb 21, 2006, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

In most states it IS a law. The Gov pretty much forced it. Told the states that didn't adopt it that they wouldn't get as much funds for their roads etc. This happened in the 90s

It is the law in all states. The feds used the same tactic to raise the drinking age to 21 across the country. Funny how the sate governments get quite about "state's rights" when there are a few dollars at stake.

Montezuma58 · Feb 21, 2006, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Incorrect. By the time the vehicle is physically in a position to throw you out of the seat it's too far gone to perform evasive manoeuvres anyways.
And I've personally been in a position where my driving has been limited by the seat belt not allowing me to observe the road quickly enough - by restricting my forwards movement so I couldn't shift forward to take a peek in the direction I wanted to. Drive a panel van for a couple of weeks, you'll see what I mean.

My friend wouldn't have had time to reach for scissors. He had about a second to jump in the back of the vehicle. And having been upside down in a vehicle a few times, I can tell you that when you're in that position you ain't gonna know which way to grab for those scissors.

It's almost comical to see people try to rationalize not wearing seat belts. There are very rare cases when wearing a seat belt proves to be a hazard. But worrying about the extremely unlikely while ignoring more prevalent dangers is not an optimal survival strategy.

If you don't want to wear a seat belt then don't. Be honest and admit you just don't want to and don't like being told what to do.

SSharon · Feb 21, 2006, 09:57 AM

It may be a law to wear a seatbelt in all states but only recently has it been the law where you can be pulled over for only that reason.

Also, having worked as an EMT in Illinois, Maryland, and New York, I can tell you that seatbelts save lives. I don't care about freak accidents where it isn't the best option, I would rather be safe the majority of the time. And just because I have worked in the emergency medicine field doesn't mean I like seeing mangled bodies.

I am still not convinced that holding a phone while driving is inherently dangerous, but that's a topic for another thread.

Troll · Feb 21, 2006, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Well, go on... ...tell me exactly how not wearing a seat belt is anything to do with anyone but the people in the vehicle in question and why exactly it needs legislation.

Who do you think pays for the paramedics and the hospitals and cleaning people who wouldn't wear seatbelts off the scenery? It's not just about the people inside the car.

turtle777 · Feb 21, 2006, 10:15 AM

This thread confuses me.
Why is it not illegal to not unconfuse MacNN members ?

Mastrap · Feb 21, 2006, 10:25 AM

Doofy:

Transport Canada estimates that since 1989, buckling up in Canada has saved more than 5,500 lives, avoided 110,000 injuries and reduced health and social costs by more than $9 billion.

$9 billion. That's $9 billion I do not need to pay in taxes to support idiots who would otherwise need medical and social services to fix them up after the event.

I thought that should appeal to you.

analogika · Feb 21, 2006, 10:45 AM

Fascist.

RAILhead · Feb 21, 2006, 10:53 AM

ajprice · Feb 21, 2006, 11:06 AM

An artists impression...

wdlove · Feb 21, 2006, 11:17 AM

A very sad situation. I hope that she will make a full recovery.

TETENAL · Feb 21, 2006, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by wdlove

I hope that she will make a full recovery.

Yeah, that would be way cool, if she'd be the first woman in history to ever grow a new arm.

Eriamjh · Feb 22, 2006, 08:12 AM

I think people should not be required to wear seat belts. It reduces the population by eliminating the stupid.

And get rid of the warnings on lawnmowers, too.

Arty50 · Feb 22, 2006, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

I have a friend who wouldn't be here today if he'd been wearing his seat belt - he'd be about a half-inch tall.

I wouldn't be here today if I hadn't been wearing my seatbelt.

Doofy, when you're in mid-air flying towards the windshield and that strip of fabric pulls you back down to earth, you thank god for the person that invented it.

Kevin · Feb 22, 2006, 08:28 AM

I have a friend who wouldn't be here today if he'd been wearing his seat belt - he'd be about a half-inch tall.

I wouldn't be here today if I hadn't been wearing my seatbelt.

And that is why it should be a CHOICE for adults.

IonCable · Feb 22, 2006, 08:55 AM

In many US states Seltbelts, child safety seats and young children in the back seat is the Law. Michigan has a seat belt law, children under (i believe) 60 lbs are not allowed in the front seat. All young children under 4 must be in safety seat.

Busemann · Feb 22, 2006, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Y3a what about claustrophobic people that can't wear them?

I knew a gal that freaked out when she had to wear her seat-belt because it made her feel "trapped"

Send her to a head-doctor then

Kevin · Feb 22, 2006, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Busemann

Send her to a head-doctor then

Eh, something like that doesn't always go away. And are you gonna pay for it?

christ · Feb 22, 2006, 09:44 AM

Has the woman been charged with reckless child endangerment/ dangerous driving/ attempted murder for driving while on the cell phone?

If not, why not? They appear to have all the evidence that they could ever need.

Doofy · Feb 22, 2006, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

And that is why it should be a CHOICE for adults.

Exactly.

Macpilot · Feb 22, 2006, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by ajprice

http://www.wlextv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4449021

She is still alive, along with her 6 year old daughter who was also in the car. Both were wearing seat belts (why isn't it illegal not to wear seat belts in America?)

The arm was found near by, still holding the phone in the hand.

Insane.

The State of California requires seatbelts for every person in the vehicle. I am pretty sure that most States have this law.

Macpilot · Feb 22, 2006, 10:38 AM

And a seatbelt saved my life when I was in my teens.

PacHead · Feb 22, 2006, 10:39 AM

People who talk on cell phones (non-handsfree) while driving are annoying, especially taxi drivers. Hopefully the woman has learned her lesson.

Doofy · Feb 22, 2006, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Macpilot

And a seatbelt saved my life when I was in my teens.

To all those folks saying that wearing a seatbelt saved their life...

...are you sure about that? Are you absolutely 100% sure that you'd be dead if you hadn't have been wearing your seatbelt? Or are you just assuming so?

For example, in the case of my friend who would be dead if he had been wearing it, I can say that 100%, since the roof on his side of the vehicle was a half inch from the base of his seat.

Can you say with 100% accuracy what would have happened had you not been wearing a belt?

SSharon · Feb 22, 2006, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

To all those folks saying that wearing a seatbelt saved their life...

...are you sure about that? Are you absolutely 100% sure that you'd be dead if you hadn't have been wearing your seatbelt? Or are you just assuming so?

For example, in the case of my friend who would be dead if he had been wearing it, I can say that 100%, since the roof on his side of the vehicle was a half inch from the base of his seat.

Can you say with 100% accuracy what would have happened had you not been wearing a belt?

This isn't the issue. Seatbelts save lives more often than they aid in death. The people here that were in serious accidents know this. I have seen enough accidents to know this. I (personally) know 2 people killed in car accidents in the past two years and I know many more than that who were in serious accidents and survived because of seatbelts.
Your logic is like saying the harness on a roller coaster can potentially kill you so don't wear it on coasters that don't go upside down. Don't bet on the freak chance, bank on the majority.

production_coordinator · Feb 22, 2006, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

To all those folks saying that wearing a seatbelt saved their life...

...are you sure about that? Are you absolutely 100% sure that you'd be dead if you hadn't have been wearing your seatbelt? Or are you just assuming so?

For example, in the case of my friend who would be dead if he had been wearing it, I can say that 100%, since the roof on his side of the vehicle was a half inch from the base of his seat.

Can you say with 100% accuracy what would have happened had you not been wearing a belt?

No, you can't PROVE it in a specific situation where the conditions weren't monitored.

BUT, lab testing has PROVEN that seat belts save lives. Side impact, head on collisions, roll over... seat belts protected the passengers in all situations than wearing no seat belt.

I'm sure there are situations where not wearing a seat belt protected someone, but that's the exception... and by far the norm.

Doofy · Feb 22, 2006, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by SSharon

This isn't the issue. Seatbelts save lives more often than they aid in death. The people here that were in serious accidents know this. I have seen enough accidents to know this.

You say that like you think I've never been in an accident. I've been in plenty (including the one where my friend would have died had he been wearing his belt) and my experience simply doesn't tally with the generally accepted opinion of seatbelts.

I'm not pulling this out of my ass or from government statistics (most of which are manipulated to suit whatever stance it is they're taking) - I'm taking it from personal experience.

Chuckit · Feb 22, 2006, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Montezuma58

Funny how the sate governments get quite about "state's rights" when there are a few dollars at stake.

Because giving someone an incentive to do what you want isn't a violation of their rights, maybe?

andi*pandi · Feb 22, 2006, 01:21 PM

In Massachusetts, it's "Click it, or Ticket." You can be pulled over for not wearing a seat belt. In Maine also, I think?

legacyb4 · Feb 22, 2006, 01:27 PM

Shouldn't the focus really be more on the question of "why was she driving a truck with one hand" rather than "why is it illegal not to wear a seatbelt"?

Originally Posted by ajprice

The arm was found near by, still holding the phone in the hand.

olePigeon · Feb 22, 2006, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by legacyb4

Shouldn't the focus really be more on the question of "why was she driving a truck with one hand" rather than "why is it illegal not to wear a seatbelt"?

She was driving it with one hand cuz her arm was severed. Duh! How about you trying driving a vehical with a severed arm. It's really hard! The blood makes it slippery.

subego · 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

I'm not pulling this out of my ass or from government statistics (most of which are manipulated to suit whatever stance it is they're taking) - I'm taking it from personal experience.

Well, my personal experience is different. I know a few people who were in head-ons where the only injury was a few cracked ribs from the seat-belt. While not necessarily fatal, had they not been wearing their seat-belt, common sense seems to dictate they would have made a rather severe face-plant into the steering wheel (this was pre-airbag).

I rear-ended a cab once at about 10 miles an hour (good god that was satisfying). The seat-belt did what it was supposed to for me. My friend, who I always insisted should wear his seat-belt, ended up stuffed into the foot-well, unharmed, but convinced that maybe I was right about the seat-belt thing.

It shouldn't be too hard to imagine the continuum of accidents between trading paint and a roof collapse to within an inch of the driver's seat, where a wearing a seat-belt could be an advantage. At the very least, it's going to cut down on the need for facial reconstruction should you be the driver.

Of course, I don't support mandatory seat-belt laws for adults, but I think people should wear them anyways.

Edit: I want to make it clear that I understand there are examples where the seat-belt kills you. I see this as a situation somewhat similar to motorcycle helmets. Wearing one will protect your head from the pavement, but will also cut down on vision and hearing, as well as act as a nice heavy weight on your head magnifying any whiplash effects.

This being said, If you were able to get me on a motorcycle in the first place, I'd still take the helmet.

Like the seat-belt, it should be a choice.

Chuckit · Feb 22, 2006, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

I'm not pulling this out of my ass or from government statistics (most of which are manipulated to suit whatever stance it is they're taking) - I'm taking it from personal experience.

However government statistics may be manipulated, personal anecdotal evidence is hardly a better basis for an opinion.

CharlesS · Feb 22, 2006, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

You say that like you think I've never been in an accident. I've been in plenty

Let me guess - a buddy of yours stopped at a red light once and got rear-ended by a drunk driver, so you decided that it's clearly safer to barrel right through all red lights and stop signs?

turtle777 · Feb 22, 2006, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Let me guess - a buddy of yours stopped at a red light once and got rear-ended by a drunk driver, so you decided that it's clearly safer to barrel right through all red lights and stop signs?

olePigeon · Feb 22, 2006, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Can you say with 100% accuracy what would have happened had you not been wearing a belt?

Anyone have that video of the guy being thrown from his truck, into the otherside of the freeway, then being run over?

Yeah, I think a seatbelt might've helped in that one.