[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

As Kevin and Dakar pointed out, this has nothing to do with atheism, it very much has to do with anti-Christianity.

Most atheists I know still openly celebrate the secular aspects of Christmas and Easter.

Which is leading me to formulate a theory as to why Atheists are "America's most distrusted minority"; Atheists are not easily stereotyped. Sneaky buggers might not even be Atheists; they might be Agnostics.

[Dakar]

Haha, that's an interesting way of looking at it.

[subego]

Originally Posted by BRussell

There's a term for people who make a big deal out of not believing in or following social convention: assholes.

This space reserved for BRussell to imply I'm an asshole again...

As it's helping so much to examine the issue.

[Kevin]

This is my view on it. It seems the Atheists, Agnostics, Religious that are secure with their beliefs are the ones that aren't "preachy" or hateful when they speak of their beliefs. They realize their belief is just that. Their personal belief. They can also get along with peoeple that have different beliefs systems than their own. They can put this aside.

But the same groups also have people that do the opposite. Spread hateful things about atheists/Christians make hateful comments about said groups, and treat anyone that goes against their certain faith or belief system with contempt, seem to come off as insecure with their own beliefs. Their reactions are a defense mechanism of them not being sure, and being insecure with that fact. The overtly over-react to certain things. Esp anything that reminds them of that insecurity.

This has just been an observation in my life so far.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by subego

This space reserved for BRussell to imply I'm an asshole again...

As it's helping so much to examine the issue.

Now hold on, that's not fair. I never called you that, nor did you ever say that you identified with the position you were describing. We were discussing this in completely generic terms, and not specifying any individuals. For you to NOW say that you identify with the people that I had generically called "assholes" in order to claim that I was insulting YOU is unfair.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin

To be honest. These aren't atheists. Most atheists care less either way.

These are anti-Christian zealots.

They have a chip on their shoulder. And reminders make them feel insecure. That is why they want to get rid of the bunny, even though it has really nothing to do with Christianity. Because it REMINDS them of Christianity.

I don't think it's anything as sinister as that. I think it's just a case of hypercorrection — people become so concerned about doing something wrong that they go to the opposite extreme without even realizing that they're just as far out as the thing they're trying to avoid. I know people who do the same on lots of issues. For instance, people who are so concerned about sounding like they look down on other races that they wind up coming across as completely patronizing.

[Kevin]

Chuckit I agree that exists too, but there are also those I am referring to as well. Ive seen it first hand

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I don't think it's anything as sinister as that. I think it's just a case of hypercorrection — people become so concerned about doing something wrong that they go to the opposite extreme without even realizing that they're just as far out as the thing they're trying to avoid. I know people who do the same on lots of issues. For instance, people who are so concerned about sounding like they look down on other races that they wind up coming across as completely patronizing.

Keep in mind here that the real victims are Christians. EVERYONE discriminates and beats them up

[iLikebeer]

Just because you're atheist/agnostic doesn't mean you can't appreciate the holidays. Those are definitely anti-christians and not a common trait of us unbelievers.
St. Patrick's day is a day to get together with friends and drink a lot.
Easter is a chance to celebrate the end of winter by buying each other lots of candy and Cadberry Eggs!
Christmas is another chance to remind each other how good of friends we are to each other by getting each other good gifts. Who cares if there's a Santa or whatever.

Strangely, I've noticed most atheists/agnostics celebrate the same religious holidays that they were brought up with. I still do all the Christian holidays, but not any Jewish or Buddhist ones. Can't explain it other than people stick to what they're comfortable with.

Who really cares about the topic though. Most people in real life would never know I'm atheist/agnostic and if anyone really had a problem with it, they probably wouldn't be friends anyway. There isn't really a place where bigots can go to get a list of us. They can't use knowledge of the bible/koran or whatever to find us, as most casual religious people don't know too much about their own religions. All in all, oh well.

[hyteckit]

Preacher's wife considered "perfect mother, perfect wife."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/24/min...ain/index.html

[Kr0nos]

Today's secular marriages are a long way from the marriages that God ordained. And we the small Born Again Washed in the blood of the Lamb Christian community, must pray for the children of such unholy secular unions, for the children are the result, for the most part, not of love, but of lust.

Pinckley also told The Sun the Winklers seemed an ideal couple. "They were such a good couple - happy," she said.

…Congregants found Winkler dead in the bedroom. He had been shot in the back…

Life…stranger than fiction.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

Who really cares about the topic though. Most people in real life would never know I'm atheist/agnostic and if anyone really had a problem with it, they probably wouldn't be friends anyway. There isn't really a place where bigots can go to get a list of us. They can't use knowledge of the bible/koran or whatever to find us, as most casual religious people don't know too much about their own religions. All in all, oh well.

Which probably also contributes to this "lack of trust". I wouldn't be surprised if many of those who don't trust atheists associate atheists with anarchists.

[Kevin]

So hyteckit and Kron, what was your point in the last two posts you made?

And think carefully before you answer.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Kevin

So hyteckit and Kron, what was your point in the last two posts you made?

And think carefully before you answer.

All groups have their share of bananacakes?

People are people, different and the same; statistics change and change and change; incidents occur across the spectrum. Everybody bleeds; most people love and hate. Blahblahblah.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

All groups have their share of bananacakes?

People are people, different and the same; statistics change and change and change; incidents occur across the spectrum. Everybody bleeds; most people love and hate. Blahblahblah.

Good answer.

[Dark Helmet]

This attitude goes well with the US's motto of "Your either with us or your against us".

And the US thinks Muslims religious believes are strange.

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

All groups have their share of bananacakes?

People are people, different and the same; statistics change and change and change; incidents occur across the spectrum. Everybody bleeds; most people love and hate. Blahblahblah.

[porieux]

...

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by porieux

religion is a mental virus that preys on the weak minded.

What about hate?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

This attitude goes well with the US's motto of "Your either with us or your against us".

And the US thinks Muslims religious believes are strange.

Hey SWG do you have ANY purpose in here but to bash Americans and Christians?

Seriously, get a grip. Seek help before someone has to shoot you down from a water tower.

You are the very people you hate, and you don't even realize it.

Sad.

Originally Posted by porieux

religion is a mental virus that preys on the weak minded.

Not only was that comment hateful and full of biggotry. It's also completely ignorant.

I'd take some time out before posting such things again.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

What about hate?

Religion is full of hate, they just give it another name.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Religion is full of hate, they just give it another name.

I think that's unfair. Humanity is full of hate, and that can transfer to religious or secular realms. Religion is not for me, but that doesn't mean I'm against those who need or benefit from it. Those who are illy affected by religion would be illy affected by something else if it weren't for religion's availability.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Hey SWG do you have ANY purpose in here but to bash Americans and Christians?

Seriously, get a grip. Seek help before someone has to shoot you down from a water tower.

You are the very people you hate, and you don't even realize it.

Sad.

I think that's unfair. SWG has provided plenty of humor throughout the boards unrelated to state or creed.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

I think that's unfair. Humanity is full of hate, and that can transfer to religious or secular realms. Religion is not for me, but that doesn't mean I'm against those who need or benefit from it. Those who are illy affected by religion would be illy affected by something else if it weren't for religion's availability.

Problem is most religious groups promote discrimination. Heck many US religious groups poured TONS of money into stopping Canadian Gay marriage even placing large hate ads in national papers. What business is it of theirs.

A lot a good it did them

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Religion is full of hate, they just give it another name.

You don't understand what the word hate means.

Tolerance isn't accepting another person's views. Tolerance is how you treat those that you disagree with.

Belittling them every chance you get, means you are intolerant.

And therefore become the very person you claim to hate.

[porieux]

...

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by porieux

Don't try to force negative emotions into what I say to avoid facing the fact that you find uncomfortable.

Wow you told me not to do something you just did yourself in the same sentence.

The truth may hurt but don't blame the messenger.

Your opinion doesn't truth.

It's just your opinion.

So many people fail to understand this.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Kevin

This is my view on it. It seems the Atheists, Agnostics, Religious that are secure with their beliefs are the ones that aren't "preachy" or hateful when they speak of their beliefs. They realize their belief is just that. Their personal belief. They can also get along with peoeple that have different beliefs systems than their own. They can put this aside.

But the same groups also have people that do the opposite. Spread hateful things about atheists/Christians make hateful comments about said groups, and treat anyone that goes against their certain faith or belief system with contempt, seem to come off as insecure with their own beliefs. Their reactions are a defense mechanism of them not being sure, and being insecure with that fact. The overtly over-react to certain things. Esp anything that reminds them of that insecurity.

This has just been an observation in my life so far.

I agree with you here. It's takes a couple of extremists to mislabel an entire religion/social view. Look at the Muslims for example. The amount of suicide bombers pale in comparison to the amount of "good" Muslims, however, the entire religion is seen by some in a negative light.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by porieux

religion is a mental virus that preys on the weak minded.

I've posted something similar in the past, just not in such a mean manner.

My opinion is that people require faith in something. Be it religion or otherwise. Some find faith in themselves, others turn elsewhere.

[Kevin]

And that Rumor, I have no problem of. You also seem to be secure with your beliefs.

You can tell those who are and are not secure with their beliefs by them admitting that it is indeed also based on faith.

Those that are insecure will try to push it off as fact. Because they can't handle the fact that they MIGHT be wrong. It makes them feel "weak"

[hills_7]

How many atheists have killed in the name of religion over the centuries?

Most wars have been religious, if that's possible.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by RollingBones

How many atheists have killed in the name of religion over the centuries?

Most wars have been religious, if that's possible.

The two big ones weren't about religion.

Nice exaggeration.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by RollingBones

How many atheists have killed in the name of religion over the centuries?

Most wars have been religious, if that's possible.

That's a silly question. How would atheists kill in the name of religion? I'm sure some blood thirsty atheists have used religion as an excuse to kill before though. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some people that created religion or world leaders that use religion as excuses for war are atheists themselves.

Imo, religion is a tool of power. If religion wasn't there to be used for this purpose, something else would be. Human nature of the masses is too easy to manipulate for it to be otherwise. Maybe one day learning and tolerance will alleviate this, but the world is nowhere near that point yet.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

That's a silly question. How would atheists kill in the name of religion? I'm sure some blood thirsty atheists have used religion as an excuse to kill before though. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some people that created religion or world leaders that use religion as excuses for war are atheists themselves.

Fine, how many atheists have got together and killed others in the name of ANYTHING?

[deej5871]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Fine, how many atheists have got together and killed others in the name of ANYTHING?

Umm...I hate to tell you this but atheists aren't exactly an organized group. Sure, it's easy to say that Christianity went to war over religion because their religion has a leader, the Pope. Other religions have their own leaders. Atheists have no leader. By definition they don't follow any organization or doctrine. You could say that they follow the laws, and that is their doctrine, But then, countries and governments (the creators of the "atheist doctrine" in this example), have gone to war with each other many times. Wouldn't that mean atheists have "[gotten] together and killed others" in the name of something?

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Fine, how many atheists have got together and killed others in the name of ANYTHING?

Don't speak in generalizations and you won't have to finetune your argument. I'm an atheist, but you're just being difficult. You could argue religious groups are more likely to engage in killing for unjust reasons. I'd agree with you on that.

But to answer your question, I don't know. 47? 3 billion? It's hard to tell because you never really know who is religious and who isn't. Besides, not all killing IS in the name of religion, even when people think it is. Killing in general is bad, I'm sure you won't argue with that. But stereotyping an entire group and tellling people that supposedly "kill in the name of religion" is kind of self defeating if you want things to change. Antagonizing a group in power with a superior attitude might be ok when the internet separates you, but if they're as bad as you make out on a widespread level, they might just kill you if you said that to their faces. Mob rule and all.

Or maybe you're just being a bit melodramatic?

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Fine, how many atheists have got together and killed others in the name of ANYTHING?

Ever hear of communism? Those atheists killed more in the name of communism than even the Nazis, and perhaps more than anyone else in history.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Ever hear of communism? Those atheists killed more in the name of communism than even the Nazis, and perhaps more than anyone else in history.

I think this is the big problem the US has here. Atheists didn't kill all those millions in the name of atheism, they did it in the name of communism. In the 50's, the gov't decided to use that as anti-commie propaganda: those damn god hating, freedom hating, secular atheist bastards. They just happened to "be" atheist, which most weren't anyway as religion has made a come back since the end of the cold war and probably never really went away in private.

The hate of commies got associated with godlessness, hence "one republic, under god." That's a stereotype and generalization I do see and hear on the internet and in real life.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

Don't speak in generalizations and you won't have to finetune your argument. I'm an atheist, but you're just being difficult. You could argue religious groups are more likely to engage in killing for unjust reasons. I'd agree with you on that.

But to answer your question, I don't know. 47? 3 billion? It's hard to tell because you never really know who is religious and who isn't. Besides, not all killing IS in the name of religion, even when people think it is. Killing in general is bad, I'm sure you won't argue with that. But stereotyping an entire group and tellling people that supposedly "kill in the name of religion" is kind of self defeating if you want things to change. Antagonizing a group in power with a superior attitude might be ok when the internet separates you, but if they're as bad as you make out on a widespread level, they might just kill you if you said that to their faces. Mob rule and all.

Or maybe you're just being a bit melodramatic?

And that folks, was a smack down.

Yes SWG, even the atheists thinks your a drama queen.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Ever hear of communism? Those atheists killed more in the name of communism than even the Nazis, and perhaps more than anyone else in history.

So they were all Atheists?

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

So they were all Atheists?

Atheism is a cornerstone of the Communist philosophy, though Stalin and Mao made sure their deified image appeared often enough.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

Atheists didn't kill all those millions in the name of atheism, they did it in the name of communism.

The question was whether atheists have ever killed people in the name of anything. The answer is that atheists have, at least in the 20th century, probably killed more people than religious people have in the name of religion. And they did it in the name of something - their philosophy of communism, of which atheism was a part.

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally Posted by BRussell

The question was whether atheists have ever killed people in the name of anything. The answer is that atheists have, at least in the 20th century, probably killed more people than religious people have in the name of religion. And they did it in the name of something - their philosophy of communism, of which atheism was a part.

amen.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by BRussell

The question was whether atheists have ever killed people in the name of anything. The answer is that atheists have, at least in the 20th century, probably killed more people than religious people have in the name of religion. And they did it in the name of something - their philosophy of communism, of which atheism was a part.

This isn't quite correct. Most people who were killed in communist regimes were killed in the name of "revenge" and "social control", more than anything else. In that sense, socialist dictatorships were very much like fascism in that they seeked to eliminate everything that might have threatened their "system" and exercise of power.

It is true that a lot of these victims were persecuted because of their beliefs, – not "in the name of atheism", but because they were seen as a potential threat to the established order.

Regardless, these days the majority of people who consider themselves "atheists" espouse to different goals and ethics. Most of them seem to be anti-war, anti-dictatorship and pro humanist values. Something that can't be said about most (especially American evangelical) Christians, who seem to be pro-totalitarianism (from an authoritarian point of view) across the board.

[iLikebeer]

This is from National Geographic January 2006. It lists the genocidal killings of the 20th century. You could argue religion or whatever for most, but most of the time they seem to be more about power, as it's always been. Religious or not, most killing in the name of whatever has been the masses doing what they've been told by the people in power. It's just more convenient when the other people are different in some way. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Communism, christianity, islam, whatever.....give it a name, it's still the same thing.

*edit: sorry, i just got back from the bars with all my Catholic friends, kind of buzzed and my scanner lost the left hand part. You'll just have to use your knowledge of the world to guess the names

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by Kevin

And that folks, was a smack down.

Yes SWG, even the atheists thinks your a drama queen.

Well, to be fair, SWG seems like a pretty good guy. I'm sure he just gets overwhelmed by the right tendencies of this place. Also, you were the only person i had on ignore, but I always ended up reading your posts anyways; and one of them in this thread made me decide not to bother with it. You just post too much, in MY opinion, no biggie though.

Also, he was really helpful to me on advice for buying a TV, if only I'd sent him a message earlier I wouldn't be in this Samsung DLP mess. I sometimes agree with both sides here, so I'm not gonna take sides. But, when I needed help and advice, he was extremely helpful. Glad he's here. You two just kind of balance each other out.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

Well, to be fair, SWG seems like a pretty good guy.

Oh I am sure if he didn't know who I was, we'd hit it off just fine in a pub. He just needs to stop spreading his hateful ignorance. If I were to go around and bash homosexuals like he does Christians and Americans. I would be attacked for being a homophobe.

I'm sure he just gets overwhelmed by the right tendencies of this place.

This place is mostly leftist. So if he is getting overwhelmed by right tendencies in a forum that has mostly lefties, I don't know what to tell him.

Also, you were the only person i had on ignore, but I always ended up reading your posts anyways

Just like he does.

You just post too much, in MY opinion, no biggie though.

I reply to posts that are made to me. Or interest me. Usually people that complain I "post too much" simply don't like what I have to say.
You never hear anyone say "You post too much" to people they agree with.

You two just kind of balance each other out.

Not really. I don't hate gays, or atheists or anyone else. SWG is pretty darn intolerant. Meaning the way he treats those he disagrees with.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Oh I am sure if he didn't know who I was, we'd hit it off just fine in a pub.

prolly true of most internet adversaries. Everyone has friends they disagree with. Pubs do help.

This place is mostly leftist. He just doesn't like America or Christians.

It might be mostly leftist, but the right seem to join together and post more. And don't forget AW and his eleventy-billion posts in a row, lol. sorry AW

Just like he does.

dunno. Honestly, I agree with you a lot, but you post a lot of needless, off thread posts. Or you get into inter-thread bickering that could be done in PM's. You're not alone in that, you just do it more than most. Nothing wrong with that, but firefox scrolls really slowly.

I reply to posts that are made to me. Or interest me. Usually people that complain I "post too much" simply don't like what I have to say.
You never hear anyone say "You post too much" to people they agree with.

Well, most people disagree with me. The reason above is why you were on ignore. I'll read just about anything though.

Not really. I don't hate gays, or atheists or anyone else. SWG is pretty darn intolerant. Meaning the way he treats those he disagrees with.

Heh, I just meant you guys balance each other out in the melodrama department. You have to admit when you go on a posting rampage, you can get into quite a tissy. The other 40,000 of us don't need to see the couple few of you guys argue your long held disagreements in public.
Once again, just my opinion, not saying if I'm right or wrong.

edit* See, I don't blame you. I just got sucked into the same kind of inter-thread bickering I accused you of without meaning to. It IS hard not to respond to those kinds of things. I don't blame you at all, just the rest of us have to read through it like they have to read through my response here.

[Kr0nos]

A question to the "die hard" atheists here: What makes you so sure that there's not some kind of underlying "structure" to the universe? Does your atheism reflect into other aspects of your life (meaning are you anarchists, anti-authoritarian) etc. as well and why would you consider yourself atheist, rather than "agnostic"?

I've been a long time agnostic whose always been interested (from an intellectual, academic POV I guess) in "spiritual" matters. I believe that all religion is man made (actually I'm pretty damn sure it is ), but that humans have an intrinsic need for some kind of (for lack of a better term) inner guidance.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

prolly true of most internet adversaries. Everyone has friends they disagree with. Pubs do help.

Indeed!

As far as the rest of your post. Point taken.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

A question to the "die hard" atheists here: What makes you so sure that there's not some kind of underlying "structure" to the universe? Does your atheism reflect into other aspects of your life (meaning are you anarchists, anti-authoritarian) etc. as well and why would you consider yourself atheist, rather than "agnostic"?

I've been a long time agnostic whose always been interested (from an intellectual, academic POV I guess) in "spiritual" matters. I believe that all religion is man made (actually I'm pretty damn sure it is ), but that humans have an intrinsic need for some kind of (for lack of a better term) inner guidance.

Because people are too mean to have a guiding force maybe? And everything religious has led to nothing good or lost its followers over the Millenia. Other than that? Nothing really. I just know I'm a good enough person that if I'm wrong I probably won't have to worry about it. So I guess I'm not your die-hard atheist, but I doubt most people are.

I still don't get why people correlate atheist with anarchist or anti-authoritarianism though. It seems everyone wants to be treated well, what better way than treat people like you hope they would treat you. You don't have to believe in anything to know that people need order or hope for a pleasant world to live in. Maybe that's an atheist trait I haven't noticed before, but most of the atheists I know are humanists and dislike violence, war, poverty, and all that other not fun stuff. BUT, a lot of them can be arrogant and annoying to talk to if they are the LOUD atheists. Others just don't care and just want to be part of society without being unfairly judged or treated. Probably the 2nd group is the larger and also incorporates a lot of people that find it easier to be religious or agnostic.

Which in the end doesn't really matter. If there's something, I doubt it would have been created in a way that screws over 99% of the people it created. From here, you just go into religious debate so I'll let it go at that.