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ironknee · Apr 3, 2006, 09:22 PM

^^ ergo: all religions are nothing but faith

Kevin · Apr 3, 2006, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by ironknee

^^ ergo: all religions are nothing but faith

Any belief in something that isn't factual is faith. Not just religion.

brapper · Apr 3, 2006, 09:55 PM

K, I've managed to avoid these straight/gay threads until now. So who wants to summarize for me?

Chuckit · Apr 3, 2006, 10:03 PM

Summary: Salty's gay. SWG doesn't like Salty. Kevin doesn't like SWG.

Isn't it amazing that these threads total a combined 11 pages or something like that, and yet we've learned nothing new?

abe · Apr 3, 2006, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by brapper

K, I've managed to avoid these straight/gay threads until now. So who wants to summarize for me?

Abe's Notes Version:

Some folks disapprove of gays, citing Biblical prohibition. Other folks look for loopholes around said prohibitions. Some folks disbelieve the existence of a higher power, thus negating any faith based admonitions, entirely. These disbelievers fall into both schools of thought re: homosexuality: for and against. Some don't like Salty, whether gay or not. Some do like Salty, gay or not.

Railroader · Apr 3, 2006, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

My favorite part is everything I have said for the past 4 years about the Christian churches being intolerant and Superchicken being gay were all confirmed in one little thread

If I used your tests for logic I could assume all gay star wars obsessed guy from Toronto were purposefully ignorant.

But I know better than that. You are certainly a deviation from what I would expect from gay star wars obsessed guys from Toronto. It'd be rare to find two humans who try to be as purposefully ignorant as you do anywhere in any demographic!

ironknee · Apr 3, 2006, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Any belief in something that isn't factual is faith. Not just religion.

agreed.

Kevin · Apr 3, 2006, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Kevin doesn't like SWG.

I don't dislike SWG. Like I said, if he didn't know who I was, we'd probably hit it off in a pub somewhere.

I dislike some of the dishonest things he says.

I would never wish him any ill will.

ambush · Apr 3, 2006, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Railroader

If I used your tests for logic I could assume all gay star wars obsessed guy from Toronto were purposefully ignorant.

But I know better than that. You are certainly a deviation from what I would expect from gay star wars obsessed guys from Toronto. It'd be rare to find two humans who try to be as purposefully ignorant as you do anywhere in any demographic!

Quoted for ... lack of grammar, syntax, coherence, logic and wit.

Railroader · Apr 3, 2006, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by ambush

Quoted for ... lack of grammar, syntax, coherence, logic and wit.

WOW!!! Coming from you, that means a lot.

Forget about addressing the point I made though. You are incapable of that.

Scandalous Ion Cannon · Apr 3, 2006, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Summary: Salty's gay. SWG doesn't like Salty. Kevin doesn't like SWG.

I never said I didn't like him

Railroader · Apr 3, 2006, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

I never said I didn't like him

So, you do like him? I am completely confused now!

ambush · Apr 3, 2006, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Railroader

WOW!!! Coming from you, that means a lot.

Forget about addressing the point I made though. You are incapable of that.

That would have been a point of authority.. if only you spoke 2 or more languages fluently.

Take your Zoldipem and Zoloft now.

Railroader · Apr 3, 2006, 11:30 PM

Still dodging the point I made.

You do realize your motives are transparent don't you?

deomacius · Apr 4, 2006, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

I never said I didn't like him

Wow! Just, wow!

Kr0nos · Apr 4, 2006, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by Millennium

Because not everyone believes that all instincts -natural, learned, conditioned, or otherwise- are inherently good.

Yes, and ultimately somebody has to decide what is 'good' and what is 'bad'.

Here's a hint, – in the end it's not going to be any imaginary diety that will. As a matter of fact, you have pretty much summed up religion's biggest problem in one sentence. Congrats.

abe · Apr 4, 2006, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Yes, and ultimately somebody has to decide what is 'good' and what is 'bad'.

Here's a hint, – in the end it's not going to be any imaginary diety that will. As a matter of fact, you have pretty much summed up religion's biggest problem in one sentence. Congrats.

Does anyone have a problem with these?

http://www.charactercounts.org/defsix.htm

The Six Pillars of Character

Trustworthiness
Be honest • Don’t deceive, cheat or steal • Be reliable — do what you say you’ll do • Have the courage to do the right thing • Build a good reputation • Be loyal — stand by your family, friends and country

Respect
Treat others with respect; follow the Golden Rule • Be tolerant of differences • Use good manners, not bad language • Be considerate of the feelings of others • Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone • Deal peacefully with anger, insults and disagreements

Responsibility
Do what you are supposed to do • Persevere: keep on trying! • Always do your best • Use self-control • Be self-disciplined • Think before you act — consider the consequences • Be accountable for your choices

Fairness
Play by the rules • Take turns and share • Be open-minded; listen to others • Don’t take advantage of others • Don’t blame others carelessly

Caring
Be kind • Be compassionate and show you care • Express gratitude • Forgive others • Help people in need

Citizenship
Do your share to make your school and community better • Cooperate • Get involved in community affairs • Stay informed; vote • Be a good neighbor • Obey laws and rules • Respect authority • Protect the environment

Salty · Apr 4, 2006, 03:03 AM

I prefer Love God, Love Others.

euchomai · Apr 4, 2006, 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by abe

Does anyone have a problem with these?

They are okay for you, but it's all relative, right?

Love God, Love Others? Golden Rule sounds good to me!

abe · Apr 4, 2006, 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by euchomai

They are okay for you, but it's all relative, right?

Love God, Love Others? Golden Rule sounds good to me!

Hey guys, I'm just trying to help find something that works for all, even those who are allergic to even the thought of God.

Once we get our arms around everyone then we can move forward as a species. Religion has done a good job of attracting and recruiting most people but not all. And even those who are religious have a tough time of it.

The Six Pillars of Character would help get more people on the same page. No one has to give up their current beliefs to sign off on the 6 pillars.

PB2K · Apr 4, 2006, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by Salty

April fools!

(now try and figure out which is the fools part?)

Salty get a life. I mean it. Eat less, exercise more, don't wank too much, don't spend your days behind a computerscreen. You are pathetic. the whole forum seems to agree on that.

abe · Apr 4, 2006, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by PB2K

Salty get a life. I mean it. Eat less, exercise more, don't wank too much, don't spend your days behind a computerscreen. You are pathetic. the whole forum seems to agree on that.

FYI: I always think of someone who throws in a comment like, "the whole forum seems to agree on that" or similar comments, as someone who nervously looks over their shoulder to make sure the rest of the gang is still behind him while he's bullying a smaller kid on the playground.

Not saying that's you or that you are a sheep who still operates by high school rules or anything, but that's just me thinking out loud. FWIW.

Peace.

Kr0nos · Apr 4, 2006, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by abe

…Do what you are supposed to do…

This is what we are talking about. Please don't skew the issue to make your position appear more valid.

I am pretty much on the same page with Kant here:

Enlightenment is man's release from his self-incurred tutelage. Tutelage is the incapacity to use one's own understanding without the guidance of another. Such tutelage is self-imposed if its cause is not lack of intelligence, but rather a lack of determination and courage to use one's intelligence without being guided by another.

And we all know what 'guided by another' means here, don't we?!

PB2K · Apr 4, 2006, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by abe

FYI: I always think of someone who throws in a comment like, "the whole forum seems to agree on that" or similar comments, as someone who nervously looks over their shoulder to make sure the rest of the gang is still behind him while he's bullying a smaller kid on the playground.

Not saying that's you or that you are a sheep who still operates by high school rules or anything, but that's just me thinking out loud. FWIW.

Peace.

you must have been on pretty lousy highschools if there were little people being bugged by bullies

abe · Apr 4, 2006, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by PB2K

you must have been on pretty lousy highschools if there were little people being bugged by bullies

It was common. Then, There. Here. Now. Everywhere. Human nature. But, the image that comes to mind is of High School.

Kr0nos · Apr 4, 2006, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by abe

…as someone who nervously looks over their shoulder to make sure the rest of the gang is still behind him while he's bullying a smaller kid on the playground.

Funny, I know at least one regular poster who pulls this crap all the time. Hint - he plays on your team.

abe · Apr 4, 2006, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Funny, I know at least one regular poster who pulls this crap all the time. Hint - he plays on your team.

C'mon, we're in public. Save it for the P/L.

Kevin · Apr 4, 2006, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by ambush

That would have been a point of authority.. if only you spoke 2 or more languages fluently.

Take your Zoldipem and Zoloft now.

ambush why are 90% of your posts verbal masturbation/rubbish/personal attacks?

Seriously, get a grip. Is your parents not giving you enough attention at home?

Kevin · Apr 4, 2006, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Funny, I know at least one regular poster who pulls this crap all the time. Hint - he plays on your team.

I didn't know you were on abe's team. (Hint you do it all the time)

Kr0nos · Apr 4, 2006, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

I didn't know you were on abe's team. (Hint you do it all the time)

Funny that you're the one replying to this post. Did I strike a nerve? (Oh, and hint, – I rarely if ever do this…and you are more than welcome to back-up your claim, or STFU!)

Maflynn · Apr 4, 2006, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by Salty

I prefer Love God, Love Others.

You don't seem to live that.

PB2K · Apr 4, 2006, 08:19 AM

salty sucks, by posting threads that result in flamewars he found out the hard way.

Kevin · Apr 4, 2006, 08:28 AM

I found out what REALLY happened.

http://www.break.com/index/roommategay.html

Millennium · Apr 4, 2006, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Yes, and ultimately somebody has to decide what is 'good' and what is 'bad'.

Ultimately, yes. A being qualified to decide that would need to be able to look from every possible point of view, which would itself require omniscience. That rules out just about any human, and it certainly rules out the "whatever you make up yourself" school of thought.

Here's a hint, – in the end it's not going to be any imaginary diety that will.

Oh, indeed not. It would require a non-imaginary deity.

The hard part there is finding a non-imaginary deity. I know that any admitted "self-made morality" was made up by a human, and thus cannot be valid, because no human can truly see from all perspectives. There are many moralities out there which claim to come from deities. With any one of these my odds are not good, but at least they are nonzero.

Weyland-Yutani · Apr 4, 2006, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Well of course it is some. I know lots of non-catholic churches that are openly accepting to gays.

My gay Catholic buddy says he told his church, they are really unhappy about it but haven't thrown him out.

The Catholic church doesn't throw people out for sins. You don't know much about Christianity do ya?

cheers

W-Y

Railroader · Apr 4, 2006, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

The Catholic church doesn't throw people out for sins. You don't know much about Christianity do ya?

cheers

W-Y

I have been saying this to him for years!

Weyland-Yutani · Apr 4, 2006, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

I have been saying this to him for years!

Quoted for emphasis!

cheers

W-Y

PB2K · Apr 4, 2006, 09:58 AM

salty the attentionwh0re

Kr0nos · Apr 4, 2006, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Millennium

…That rules out just about any human, and it certainly rules out the "whatever you make up yourself" school of thought.

…which essentially leaves you stuck with never being able to make any decisions at all. And FWIW, my 'limited view' is quite enough for me to make all the quality judgements and choices regarding my life. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Millennium

The hard part there is finding a non-imaginary deity.

Exactly. Why? Because there isn't any. That's why.

Kevin · Apr 4, 2006, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Exactly. Why? Because there isn't any. That's why.

You REALLY need to learn the difference between stating a FACT which you just did. And stating an opinion which is what this post was.

You cannot "disprove" something or someone by saying "You are wrong because that isn't what I BELIEVE!!"

Well you can, but you look kinda silly doing it.

Kr0nos · Apr 4, 2006, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

You REALLY need to learn the difference between stating a FACT which you just did.

And you really need to drop that that silly a55 line and stop derailing this thread.

Millenium can believe whatever he wants. I know what I know, and that's quite enough for me. And in my life, I am the judge of what is 'good' and 'bad', 'wrong' and 'right'.

Millennium · Apr 4, 2006, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

…which essentially leaves you stuck with never being able to make any decisions at all.

By no means. Even if the rules of morality are universal and known, one must still make decisions every day on how to apply them. There are also the myriad decisions we make every day where morality doesn't even apply; why would a universal morality render these decisions impossible?

And FWIW, my 'limited view' is quite enough for me to make all the quality judgements and choices regarding my life. Thank you.

On some things, yes. On many things, in fact; there are few things in this world that really require us to see all possible points of view. Often, our own is enough. But can that truly be said for something like morality?

Exactly. Why? Because there isn't any. That's why.

And how, exactly, do you know this? In the end, even you must make a leap of faith if you really want to claim that you "know" there is no deity. There is no proof either way, and it's rather unlikely that there will be in our lifetimes. I have my faith and you have yours, but you do no one any good by pretending that your faith is something other than that.

Kr0nos · Apr 4, 2006, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Millennium

…why would a universal morality render these decisions impossible?

It's not 'universal morility' that renders them impossible, but the unwillingness to have a 'non omniscient' entity make the final decision (wether in regards to morality or otherwise)

A being qualified to decide that would need to be able to look from every possible point of view…

No, either you make that decision, or nobody at all.

Originally Posted by Millennium

But can that truly be said for something like morality?

Yes. In essence, that's what morality is.

Originally Posted by Millennium

And how, exactly, do you know this? In the end, even you must make a leap of faith if you really want to claim that you "know" there is no deity.

Quite right. And for me, it is the exact SAME kind of faith it takes not to believe in the Toothfairy, the Easter Bunny or Santa. In other words, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Dakar · Apr 4, 2006, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Quite right. And for me, it is the exact SAME kind of faith it takes not to believe in the Toothfairy, the Easter Bunny or Santa. In other words, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

I believe what you're referring to is 'doubt.'

Millennium · Apr 4, 2006, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

It's not 'universal morility' that renders them impossible, but the unwillingness to have a 'non omniscient' entity make the final decision (wether in regards to morality or otherwise)

Who said anything about the final decisions? Don't decisions about morality need to be made early in the chain, so that they can help to form basis for later decisions? Is morality an end, or a beginning?

Yes. In essence, that's what morality is.

According to your definition, I suppose. But that definition strips away the entire point of morality: establishing trust. Without that ability, morality has no meaning; it's a personal eccentricity and nothing more.

Quite right. And for me, it is the exact SAME kind of faith it takes not to believe in the Toothfairy, the Easter Bunny or Santa.

Not at all. I could disprove the existence of the tooth fairy easily: set up cameras to point under your pillow and monitor who comes in to take the tooth. I could do the same for the Easter Bunny. Santa is trickier, but still within our grasp: a survey of the North Pole would suffice.

If your faith in the lack of a higher power is truly the same as these, then I trust you have a means to disprove God. Show me.

But I don't think you can. You'll fall back on the unscientific "no evidence equals disproof" bit. In the absence of disproof, your faith involved no more reason or logic than mine.

In other words, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Your choice, but I hope you're willing to accept the consequences.

Dakar · Apr 4, 2006, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Millennium

Your choice, but I hope you're willing to accept the consequences.

That was a bit harsh.

Millennium · Apr 4, 2006, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Dakar

That was a bit harsh.

Cause and effect is a bit harsh? I don't understand. My faith has had real consequences for my life, and not all of them have been positive, at least in the short term. But I accept them, because I believe my faith to be worth it. I would hope that anyone of any other faith does the same for their own consequences.

By the way, if you're worried about me condemning him to some kind of eternal Hell, I'm not. My beliefs do not include a Hell-concept at all, so it would be silly of me to condemn him to such.

Dark Helmet · Apr 4, 2006, 11:43 AM

Nice example of fear tactics.

Dakar · Apr 4, 2006, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Millennium

Cause and effect is a bit harsh? I don't understand.

No, your needling him about it is. It's that unnecessary shot that tends to give Christians the bad rap (with atheists). Do you really believe he doesn't know the basic tenets of Christianity (i.e., slavation?). Do you really believe that comment will make a difference in what he does?

Originally Posted by Millennium

My faith has had real consequences for my life, and not all of them have been positive, at least in the short term. But I accept them, because I believe my faith to be worth it. I would hope that anyone of any other faith does the same for their own consequences.

By the way, if you're worried about me condemning him to some kind of eternal Hell, I'm not. My beliefs do not include a Hell-concept at all, so it would be silly of me to condemn him to such.

If he doesn't have to worry about hell, what exactly are the consequences in your belief system? Limbo? Oblivion?

Kr0nos · Apr 4, 2006, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Millennium

Is morality an end, or a beginning?

Morality is simply a framework for 'your' character.

Originally Posted by Millennium

According to your definition, I suppose. But that definition strips away the entire point of morality: establishing trust…

And that's exactly your problem. You need a sense of common morality to establish trust, forgetting that people can easily lie, cheat etc. – no matter what kind of morality they supposedly espouse to.

Originally Posted by Millennium

I could disprove the existence of the tooth fairy easily…

I would still have to trust those images. I don't even have to become very philosophical to point out that seeing != believing. In addition, those were mere examples…

The religion of The flying Spaghetti Monster is just as plausible as that of Hinduism or Christianity.

Originally Posted by Millennium

You'll fall back on the unscientific "no evidence equals disproof" bit.

Actually, your claim is the one which is completely unscientific, since it's not falsifiable.

Originally Posted by Millennium

Your choice, but I hope you're willing to accept the consequences.

And what are those (please don't refrain from answering this)? Because in the end, this is all you have. Spiritual and moral blackmail. QED.