[Obi Wan's Ghost]

CNet and iPod Hub says it is dead because Apple couldn't fit it in the range.

Apple replacement for both the 12 inch iBook and PowerBook...

iJulian: The 12 inch PowerBook was due to be replaced with a 13.3 inch model but Apple couldn't fit it in the range because with Intel processors they have to update the specs and prices more often than the PPC days. The low end 13" MacBook Pro was going to have 1.83ghz and 2ghz cpus but was dropped because the price was too close to the MacBook whose price couldn't come down any further. Apple's solution was to drop the MBP and upgrade the MacBook's specs and price.

[Maflynn]

I think it was dead the moment apple released the 13"macbook. Since this is the only model for the ibook, it doesn't make sense to cannibalize the sales by having two different lines of computers almost identical.

[[email protected]]

http://images.apple.com/hardware/ima...ok20060516.jpg
[Changed inline image to URL because it exceeded the maximum width we allow. Please read and follow the rules. --tooki]

you don't get this...do you? Even apple says...its complete

[WOPR]

There's Never Going To Be One!!!

[pouceo]

NOW is completed, which doesn't mean it won't release a 13 MBP in the future.

I think they would, but it could depend on how good black model sells.. If too good, then they may not need to release a 13 MBP..As Mayflynn said, why cannibalize the sales by having two almost identical models...

I believe there are still people holding back for a 13 MBP (a dedicated graphic card, al case. blah blah)

[Simon]

Stop dreaming and get real.

There will be no 13" MBP. Ever since the 12"iB/PB disaster it's been clear that the small 'Pro' machine is going to be history as soon as the line gets revamped. That has now happened.

Get a MB (or MBP if you need the GPU power) and deal with it.

Or even better, get a Dell and go to dellnn.com so we don't need to hear it anymore.

[pouceo]

yes, at this moment, I don't believe there will be a 13 MBP, or probably will never be..

But I believe that Apple will have a powerful small "pro" laptop eventually (whether it's called MBP or MB)..A one really fit into business people needs.. (a dedicated graphic card as many 3D or heavy graphic users will want)...
Apple said they didn't want a video iPod before, then what happened??

Never say NEVER at Apple..

If there was a big enough market for 13 MBP, why not?? As long as they make money..

[azt33]

Originally Posted by Simon

Or even better, get a Dell and go to dellnn.com so we don't need to hear it anymore.

Hehe, couldn't resist to go to dellnn.com

But I wish it was true that a 13" MBP would come out, but highly doubt it. I think Apple *might* upgrade the BlackBook with a dedicated GPU card, to differentiate it from the other MacBooks, but other than that, no chance of happening.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

I had my mind made up on a BlacBook weeks before they came out but the keyboard has killed it for me. I like full sized keys so the tips of my fingers can slide across to touchtype faster. The Macbook's keyboard spacing really has hurt my choice. Right now a 15" MBP is tempting but wish it was smaller because I have a backpack especially bought for a 13 incher.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

The MacBooks are so damn close the the MBP's it would be stupid to come up with another model smack dab in the middle.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

I had my mind made up on a BlacBook weeks before they came out but the keyboard has killed it for me. I like full sized keys so the tips of my fingers can slide across to touchtype faster. The Macbook's keyboard spacing really has hurt my choice. Right now a 15" MBP is tempting but wish it was smaller because I have a backpack especially bought for a 13 incher.

The MacBook has full size keys and normal key spacing.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

The MacBook has full size keys and normal key spacing.

Eug, you KNOW what I mean!

No. Gaps.

No. Casio. Calculator. Keys.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

Eug, you KNOW what I mean!

No. Gaps.

No. Casio. Calculator. Keys.

The gaps are the same as on a standard keyboard. Take a look at a desktop keyboard sometime, and compare the gaps between the tops of the keys. The gaps are just as big as on desktop keyboards as on the MacBook's keyboard. (There may be slight variations between different keyboards, but overall it's about the same.)

Yeah, the bottoms of the keys are closer together on desktop keyboards, but people don't type using the the bottoms of the keys.

I think the biggest difference has absolutely nothing to do with the spacing. It has to do with the shape with the top surface of the keys. They're flat on the MacBook, and slightly concave on most other keyboards. But like I said, that has absolutely nothing to do with the key spacing.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

I really really like the MacBook's keyboard. I love Apples desktop keyboard also.

I always found the ones on the iBooks hard to use as they had no spaces and my fat fingers always pushed 2 at once.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

The MacBooks are so damn close the the MBP's it would be stupid to come up with another model smack dab in the middle.

Except for the graphics. The MBP has a sweet graphics system for the price point, and if the Black MB was more of a "pro" model and had dedicated graphics similar to even a 12" PB, I'd have one on order right now. As it is, I'm waiting until I can get better graphics in the 13" form factor.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Dork.

Except for the graphics. The MBP has a sweet graphics system for the price point, and if the Black MB was more of a "pro" model and had dedicated graphics similar to even a 12" PB, I'd have one on order right now. As it is, I'm waiting until I can get better graphics in the 13" form factor.

for the increase price of the black MB, yes it should have had a better GPU.

[Eug Wanker]

Agreed. I have no doubt it will get better graphics... but perhaps not till 7 months from now, and even then it will still likely Intel integrated graphics. It will be a better version of Intel integrated gfx (G965), but it still won't exactly be "fast".

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Simon

There will be no 13" MBP. Ever since the 12"iB/PB disaster it's been clear that the small 'Pro' machine is going to be history as soon as the line gets revamped. That has now happened.
)

Which disaster would that be?

I'm sure there won't be a 13" PowerBook, er MacBook Pro in the near future, if ever. I still hold out a little hope for a ultraportable, but I frankly don't think it looks very good. Odds are, we're going to be seeing the current portable lineup stay pretty much the same (with speed bumps) for the next couple of years at least.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Icruise

Which disaster would that be?

Well for starters, that the 12" PB sold like crap because the iBook G4 offered similar power/features at a much lower price point.

That said, I'd have to agree with your ultra-portable reasoning. I believe we're more likely to see an ultra-portable MB (let's say 10" screen, no internal optical) than a 13" MBP in the near future, but basically, I'd expect Apple to keep the line-up just the way it is. It's complete and it's not to diversified. Both are good things.

[icruise]

Did it really sell that badly? I don't know how one would verify this, but I have the impression that there were a lot of them sold -- probably more than the 17" model.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Icruise

Did it really sell that badly? I don't know how one would verify this, but I have the impression that there were a lot of them sold -- probably more than the 17" model.

Not sure, but I agree with you that it certainly seemed like they were popular. I saw a lot of them at college in my senior year. I still feel that the addition of a dedicated graphics card would be sufficient to distinguish a 13" Macbook Pro from the MacBooks--aside from screen size, that's basically the most important difference between the larger MacBooks Pros and the MacBooks, anyway.

[NateEssex]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

for the increase price of the black MB, yes it should have had a better GPU.

Yup, and for just a few dollars more, let's get the real video card, PLEASE?!

[photoeditor]

To all those who deride the Macbook's keyboard, go and touch type on it. Please. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I try my 80 words per minute on a Macbook, I get clean text. When I do the same on a Macbook Pro or any 15 or 17 inch Powerbook, I get typos.

I do want Apple to bring out another option at 13 inches -- I want them to drop the black MB down to the price of the white one, and replace it at $1499 with an aluminum one. Now that WOULD be worth $150 to me, if for no other reason than durability -- it would dissipate heat better and it would be stronger around the display.

[mathew_m]

Originally Posted by wolwol

you don't get this...do you? Even apple says...its complete

...and Steve Jobs said that video would make it onto the iPod.

There is a lot of room for a potential 13" MacBook Pro. One being a smaller and lighter enclosure. You could shrink down the current MB enclosure a good inch without sacrificing keyboard or screen size. Just look at the old 12" Powerbook. Also there's no reason that a dedicated graphics chip couldn't be included.

I'm willing to bet that within six months that we'll see a 13" MacBook Pro. If there is a market for it then you can bet that Apple will release it.

[Simon]

Apple never broke down sales numbers for each model. They used to say how many of each line (iB, PB, iM&eM, PM), but I think they stopped that too.

So, you have to rely on the surveys done by analyst companies like Piper Jaffray when they try to asses the channel inventory and reconstruct sales numbers.

There were a lot of 12" PBs sold. But mainly rev A and B (while the iBook was a G3). By the time they reached rev D the only significant difference to the iBook G4 was DVI/spanning and case color/size. But mainly there was a $500 price difference. I can't find the link to Piper Jaffray's report, but I remember them concluding from their surveys that the 1.33GHz iBook G4 outsold the rev D 12" PB by about 5:1.

Also, remember discussions on this board at the time. Nobody recommended getting a 12" rev D when for $500 less you could get a 1.33GHz iBook G4. There were certainly fans of the 12" PB (and yes, I liked it too - see my footer, I own two actually), but from a marketing perspective they were doomed next to the 12" iBook G4.

[icruise]

I'd hardly call that a disaster, though. The 12" PowerBook was around for almost 3.5 years. I doubt Apple would have kept it around if it wasn't selling (and anecdotally I know several people who own them and have seen many more of them "in the wild" than any other Powerbook). Of course, you're right about the iBook G4 cutting into its demand at the end, and this may be the main reason that Apple isn't offering a 13" PowerBook at the moment.

[Simon]

When the cheapest PB sells worse than the most expensive one, that is a disaster. When the smallest margin notebook outsells another model with much larger margin, that is a disaster.

The result is Apple axed the small 'pro' machine. If you want to keep your hopes up for a 13" MBP go ahead. But you're in for a real disappointment.

[doriimaa]

I hope too for a 13" MBP but I guess it will remain just a dream.

I find the thick display with the big bezel rather UGLY....

The TiBook had one of the thinnest displays and definitely the one of the most narrow bezels I've seen on a notebook display. The AlBooks had a bit thicker display with slightly wider bezel and the MBP messed up with the proportions (the top side of the bezel is bigger than the sides) in favour of the built in iSight...

I could live with the wider top bezel side but no thanx, the MB ibook-like extra-wide bezel and thick plastic display just looks ugly to me...

I'd go for the 15"MBP but then again they had to make it wider than the 15" AlBook having even bigger gaps on the sides of the keyboard and also slightly reduced resolution... ugh...

The 12" PB is rather nice since it doesnt have any gaps at all on the keyboard's sides because the display panel's width doesn't exceed the width of the laptop's main body. Sure with a 13" panel there would be a way to have a slim bezel and minimal gaps on the keyboard sides since it is not THAT wide... If you look at the MB there is both a wide bezel AND extra space on the keyboard sides. I guess they could reduce that extra space and end up with something more like the PB12 design approach (or something in between the PB12 and PB15 due to the new widescreen form factor....

I know.. "dream on..." but.. oh well....

^doriimaa-

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by mathew_m

...and Steve Jobs said that video would make it onto the iPod.

There is a lot of room for a potential 13" MacBook Pro. One being a smaller and lighter enclosure. You could shrink down the current MB enclosure a good inch without sacrificing keyboard or screen size. Just look at the old 12" Powerbook. Also there's no reason that a dedicated graphics chip couldn't be included.

I'm willing to bet that within six months that we'll see a 13" MacBook Pro. If there is a market for it then you can bet that Apple will release it.

sure.....6 months later his Steveness will release it....and the next question will be, do you need the mbp now or later? IF you could afford to wait for it...good for you then

[pouceo]

it all comes down to supply and demand..
I can see a model to fill the gap between current black MB and entry level of MBP..

I believe there are many users want a pro small NB (with an al case perhaps)...Apple must have thought about it, but let's first see how good black MB can sell..If many PB 12 are willing to buy the black MB, then there may be no point of releasing one 13 MBP..

Sure, a 13 MBP may cannibalize both MB and MBP sales, however, if it gives a healthy profit after all, then why not?? Apple is in this business to make money..By reading many posts on various forums, I have found many people still want a small powerful laptop..

After June or 3Q, Intel would reduce current chips prices and would release 64 bits CPU..It might be another good time for Apple to readjust the lineup and prices..

Merge two MB white models, and sell the high-end white model at entry-level price.. Sell black at high-end white model price, then have a pro 13 MBP at current black or slightly higher price...
Then here you go, you don't have to change any specs, but have a new model to attract more customers..

Of course, it's just my "idea", I am sure the reality is much more complex, but if demand is right, why not?

[danengel]

Sure, a 13 MBP may cannibalize both MB and MBP sales, however, if it gives a healthy profit after all, then why not?? Apple is in this business to make money..By reading many posts on various forums, I have found many people still want a small powerful laptop..

A confusing lineup is bad. The current one is very good, very clear for the customer. Want a fast notebook that suits every job except gaming? Take the MacBook. Want more? Take the Pro.

The only thing I see is an ultra-portable, 12" MacBook. Apple could make it expensive, but as it would differentiate very well from the MB and the MBP, it would have its market.

[doriimaa]

Originally Posted by danengel

A confusing lineup is bad. The current one is very good, very clear for the customer. Want a fast notebook that suits every job except gaming? Take the MacBook. Want more? Take the Pro.

The only thing I see is an ultra-portable, 12" MacBook. Apple could make it expensive, but as it would differentiate very well from the MB and the MBP, it would have its market.

That wouldn't satisfy ex-powerbook12 users like me that aren't quite fond of the plasticky thick-display ibook-styled models...

I think the low-end model of the MacBook is priced fair. If they release a 12" one in theory it would need to be cheaper too (if it follows the MacBook line and not something else) so I'm not quite sure how much would the profit margins need to be squeezed.

On the other hand, apple is aware that powerbook12 users were happy to pay extra money for style and portability so I hope the blacbook experiment doesn't diminish the hopes for the 13" MBP, replacing the pb12's position on the market forever...

But then again I still think it's not that likely so I 'll continue to face it as a dream (a nice dream that is )

^doriimaa-

[pouceo]

what I mean by clearer lineup is not having two 15 MBP models and two white macbooks..

Remember how Applue used to cut the lineup back in final PB and ibook.

12 and 14' inch ibook
12, 15, 17 PB.

in the future, it could be
13.3 white and black
13, 15, 17 MBP..

but..let's see how good black can sell, in theory, if MB could sell just as good as previous ibooks and 12 PB, then may be no point for Apple to release a 13 MBP.
But some people have been not happy with the flaking black and black plastic quality, and Apple might do something about it, and release a small "pro" NB eventually

[danengel]

what I mean by clearer lineup is not having two 15 MBP models and two white macbooks.

I never thought of this as part of the lineup, only as small variations. A customer will first decide if he wants pro or not, then if 15 or 17 inches, or black or white.

[marissa]

I was hoping there'd be a smaller MBP but the MB is very similar in specs. Also the 2 white Macbooks and two 15" MBPs is sort of confusing. I thought that's what the BTO option was for.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

I don't believe anyone who says we won't see a small factor notebook with top specs again. That is narrowmindedness.

I reckon if Apple continue to grow they will one day offer more build to order options. We will be able to choose the case, size, gpu, cpu, and all that for the macbook and mbp range. If Apple did that now I would have spent my money already on a 2.16ghz mbp with 13.3 inch screen and x1600. I don't care about the heat and battery life. It's good enough compared to the competition and my old model PB.

There should just be two primary options. MacBook (plastic) and MacBook Pro (aluminum with more and better ports). Everything should be BTO on top of that.

[PowerbookG3]

...

[PowerbookG3]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

I don't believe anyone who says we won't see a small factor notebook with top specs again. That is narrowmindedness.

I reckon if Apple continue to grow they will one day offer more build to order options. We will be able to choose the case, size, gpu, cpu, and all that for the macbook and mbp range. If Apple did that now I would have spent my money already on a 2.16ghz mbp with 13.3 inch screen and x1600. I don't care about the heat and battery life. It's good enough compared to the competition and my old model PB.

There should just be two primary options. MacBook (plastic) and MacBook Pro (aluminum with more and better ports). Everything should be BTO on top of that.

Like Gateway and Dell, right?

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by PowerbookG3

Like Gateway and Dell, right?

Nein. Gateway and Dell have to many model names and are ugly and run Windows.

[danengel]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

I don't believe anyone who says we won't see a small factor notebook with top specs again. That is narrowmindedness.

I reckon if Apple continue to grow they will one day offer more build to order options. We will be able to choose the case, size, gpu, cpu, and all that for the macbook and mbp range. If Apple did that now I would have spent my money already on a 2.16ghz mbp with 13.3 inch screen and x1600. I don't care about the heat and battery life. It's good enough compared to the competition and my old model PB.

There should just be two primary options. MacBook (plastic) and MacBook Pro (aluminum with more and better ports). Everything should be BTO on top of that.

This will never happen. To keep prices low, you need to have as few manufacturing options as possible.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by danengel

This will never happen. To keep prices low, you need to have as few manufacturing options as possible.

Some options are cheap for people who want them. What if a customer didn't even need dual core on a cheap laptop with no gpu? They could order a single core MacBook for a great price.

[danengel]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

Some options are cheap for people who want them. What if a customer didn't even need dual core on a cheap laptop with no gpu? They could order a single core MacBook for a great price.

The Core Solo and Duo are most likely pin-compatible (there's a BTO option on the Mac Mini), so it's cheap to put in either one or the other during manufacturing. But choosing between GPU's from different vendors is much more complicated.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by danengel

The Core Solo and Duo are most likely pin-compatible (there's a BTO option on the Mac Mini), so it's cheap to put in either one or the other during manufacturing. But choosing between GPU's from different vendors is much more complicated.

Nein! Mobile PCI Express graphic cards has been around for more than one year now!

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by ialienam

Sure, a 13 MBP may cannibalize both MB and MBP sales, however, if it gives a healthy profit after all, then why not??

Do you remember the computer models Apple used to offer before Steve Jobs returned. That's were so many that it diluted the line and sales. That's the danger of hving a line up with so much overlap. As it is there's not too much difference between the Macbook and the pro line. Which is why apple is only selling a 13" flavor in the MB line and why they dropped the 12" (or 13") model in the pro line.

Mike

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

Do you remember the computer models Apple used to offer before Steve Jobs returned. That's were so many that it diluted the line and sales.
Mike

Actually Mac sales were bad anyway because Macs costed three times as much as PCs. It cost $150 just to buy an Apple keyboard for a Power PC tower that's how bad it was. I didn't have a Mac in those days for that reason. The number of models had nothing to do with it. Other companies have done well at the same time.

[fisherKing]

i remember when the consensus was, apple would never do a 12" powerbook, yet i am typing on one now.

am not going to hold my breath, but i hope we see a small mpb before the end of the year.
if not, will get a second-gen mb, or mpb.

but am fine for now with my pb, and willing to wait a while and see what comes next.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

Nein! Mobile PCI Express graphic cards has been around for more than one year now!

Find me one that's PIN-COMPATIBLE with the 950 GMA.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by danengel

The only thing I see is an ultra-portable, 12" MacBook. Apple could make it expensive, but as it would differentiate very well from the MB and the MBP, it would have its market.

I'm not sure how it would be easily and well-differentiated from the MB and the MBP.

Smaller screen? - Like the iBook that used to cost $1000?

No optical drive? - Fewer features?

The problem is that there already WAS a 12" Powerbook, small, light, ultra-portable, and FULL-FEATURED.

And it got stomped by a $1099 MacBook that is only slightly less portable.

They could try a 10" minibook, but I think you vastly overestimate the market potential of such a device.


Incidentally think what MOST people who are whining for a 13" MBook PRO actually want is the same ****ing MacBook, except with a different graphics card.

I doubt it will happen. We'll just get the 965 chipset instead.

I couldn't give less for the naming scheme - pro or not, this thing's kick-ass for audio as it is.

[danengel]

4 lbs (1.8 kg) or less would be a strong argument. I carried the 5.5 lbs (2.5 kg) original iBook around enough to know that weight is more important than anything else for a certain market.

Sony manages to manufacture an ultra-portable Vaio with all features you may wish for, hi-res screen, but at its price. I bet the market for something similar for Apple would be at least as big as the one for the 17" MBP.

[analogika]

I doubt it.

I loved the 12" Powerbook's portability, but I wouldn't want to work with one again after having had the 15" Powerbook for a year.

The 13" is the perfect compromise betweent the two - except that I'd hoped they'd keep it as light as the 12" was.

But 150 grams isn't much considering the benefits.