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Ulrich Kinbote · 03:53 AM

There a quite a few Christian MacNNers, so here's as good a place as any for my completely non-controversial Bible question.

What chapter of the New Testament is Jesus tempted to jump off the roof of the temple? And is this meant to be the temptation of suicide?

Chuckit · Aug 12, 2006, 03:50 AM

It's Matt. 4:5. And no, it's not about suicide. The temptation is to make God send angels to attend to him as God's true son, not to kill himself. Jesus replies, "No, you shouldn't test God." So the temptation is more about recognition and pride than it is about death.

Ulrich Kinbote · Aug 12, 2006, 03:53 AM

Pity. The idea of Jesus being tempted to suicide is far more interesting because it would add another human element to Jesus, like his moment of doubt and fear in the garden. But then again, the Bible is open to multiple interpretations -- who can say?

Chuckit · Aug 12, 2006, 03:56 AM

As depicted in the Bible, I'd say Jesus' only fear is his death, so he'd not be tempted by suicide. You'll note, the two instances where he shows fear are in the garden ("let this cup pass from me") where he's discovering his fate, and on the cross ("My God, why have you forsaken me?") when he is actually going through with it.

Ulrich Kinbote · Aug 12, 2006, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

As depicted in the Bible, I'd say Jesus' only fear is his death, so he'd not be tempted by suicide. You'll note, the two instances where he shows fear are in the garden ("let this cup pass from me") where he's discovering his fate, and on the cross ("My God, why have you forsaken me?") when he is actually going through with it.

Eli Eli lema sabachthani!

Apparently those words can be interpretated as a statement ("I am being forsaken") rather than a question ("Why am I being forsaken?"). The difference is important because it is the difference between doubting God and affirming God.

Wiki has a bit to say on this:

A limited number of people such as Rocco A. Errico and the late George M. Lamsa have asserted the rendering "My God, my God, for this [purpose] I was spared!" or "...for such a purpose have you kept me!" which has become popular in many niche circles, but the vast majority of Aramaic scholars view such a rendering as spurious and pseudoscientific.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Eli...ma_sabachthani

jckalen · Aug 12, 2006, 09:07 AM

I thought it was because his buddies put him up to it by giving him an umbrella and telling him he could soar like batman.

belfast-biker · Aug 12, 2006, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by jckalen

I thought it was because his buddies put him up to it by giving him an umbrella and telling him he could soar like batman.

That would rock...

Millennium · Aug 12, 2006, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Ulrich Kinbote

Pity. The idea of Jesus being tempted to suicide is far more interesting because it would add another human element to Jesus, like his moment of doubt and fear in the garden. But then again, the Bible is open to multiple interpretations -- who can say?

It would have been interesting but, at that point Jesus had no reason to commit suicide. His ministry hadn't really started up yet, but there is no indication that he was feeling particularly depressed or fearful. If you want that, consider the accounts of the incident at Gethsemane.

If some random guy came up to you and told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it? Probably not. What if he handed you a big bungee cord? That might make the temptation a lot stronger. To be honest, I think this may have been the object of temptation: not the glory of angelic attention per se, but a simple adrenaline rush. It would certainly echo well with a lot of people today.

belfast-biker · Aug 12, 2006, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Millennium

If some random guy came up to you and told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it? Probably not.

What if it was 2000years ago, you had the POWER OF JESUS, and there were some Gorgeous Gallilean Girls Gawking?

You'd sin that night. Several times.

Ulrich Kinbote · Aug 13, 2006, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by jckalen

I thought it was because his buddies put him up to it by giving him an umbrella and telling him he could soar like batman.

The umbrella batman incident is a well-known exegetical error from the New American Student Bible. It has since been corrected in subsequent editions, with a prefatory apology.

Ulrich Kinbote · Aug 13, 2006, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by Millennium

It would have been interesting but, at that point Jesus had no reason to commit suicide. His ministry hadn't really started up yet

But he knew what was coming, right?

The real question here is not 'Was Jesus tempted by Satan to jump?' or 'Did Jesus think about running away in the garden?' -- it's Did Jesus have any free-will to do any of these things?

I think there is a strange duality to Jesus. His moves were divinely preordained. It was like a part he had to play in a movie. But the "actor" behind the "character" sat by in silence, watching everything happen to him. The interesting question is: Did the Son of God break out of character in the garden? And on the cross when he said 'Eli Eli lema sabachthani'? were those the words of a carpenter from Nazareth, or that man reading his lines as The Son of God?

ThinkInsane · Aug 13, 2006, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by belfast-biker

That would rock...

Didn't work out to good for Hank Venture...

bstone · Aug 13, 2006, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Ulrich Kinbote

Eli Eli lema sabachthani!

Apparently those words can be interpretated as a statement ("I am being forsaken") rather than a question ("Why am I being forsaken?"). The difference is important because it is the difference between doubting God and affirming God.

Wiki has a bit to say on this:

Lamah= 'why' in hebrew. So how can you translate it without the 'why'?

Just curious.

Ulrich Kinbote · Aug 13, 2006, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by bstone

Lamah= 'why' in hebrew. So how can you translate it without the 'why'?

Just curious.

It is an unpopular interpretation (and not mine), but it exists all the same. I can't answer your question. But maybe lamah can be used in the sense "the reason for which" in a noun phrase, as in English someone might say:

A: What are you thinking about?
B: Why I hate my job.

Or maybe another text is being referred to. Didn't Jesus speak Aramaic anyway?

There is only one man who can answer these question, and since his DUI charge, he's laying low.

voodoo · Aug 13, 2006, 09:48 PM

The New Testament was written in Greek. Jesus spoke Aramaic. When did Hebrew enter the picture? It was a dead language at the time of Christ.

V

BRussell · Aug 13, 2006, 09:59 PM

Does it seem likely that the Gospels, written decades after Jesus died, recorded his exact words? It doesn't to me. That line - "My God, why have you forsaken me?" - is also in Psalms in the Old Testament/Jewish Bible. One of the most important themes of the Gospels, at least from the perspective of someone who does not assume that the Gospels are literally true, is that the authors often tried to link Jesus to their scriptures. You see it all through the writings. My guess is that the authors of the Gospels had no idea what Jesus said on the cross, but used their scriptures (including the Psalms) to "fill in the blanks." I believe the basic outline of Jesus' life is probably true, but those kinds of details are as likely to be non-historical.

undotwa · Aug 14, 2006, 01:01 AM

The temptations that Christ endured I think are very important as they underly his humanity. It made his sacrifice upon the cross so much more weighty, for not only had he had to endure physical torment, but also psychological torment - knowing before hand the cruel torments that lie before him.

Chuckit · Aug 14, 2006, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by BRussell

Does it seem likely that the Gospels, written decades after Jesus died, recorded his exact words? It doesn't to me. That line - "My God, why have you forsaken me?" - is also in Psalms in the Old Testament/Jewish Bible. One of the most important themes of the Gospels, at least from the perspective of someone who does not assume that the Gospels are literally true, is that the authors often tried to link Jesus to their scriptures. You see it all through the writings. My guess is that the authors of the Gospels had no idea what Jesus said on the cross, but used their scriptures (including the Psalms) to "fill in the blanks." I believe the basic outline of Jesus' life is probably true, but those kinds of details are as likely to be non-historical.

You think Jesus yelled something with his dying breath before a large crowd, but everybody forgot what it was and just decided to pull something from a song?

BRussell · Aug 14, 2006, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

You think Jesus yelled something with his dying breath before a large crowd, but everybody forgot what it was and just decided to pull something from a song?

Basically. The gospels were written decades later, and under those conditions, I wouldn't assume that anything that specific is an accurate "reporting" of what really happened. But how do you know he yelled anything with his dying breath? And how do you know there was a large crowd? From what I've read - and just common sense - it's highly doubtful that anyone would have been standing around watching him get crucified.

But it is possible that Jesus himself quoted the Psalm on the cross, and that was passed down orally until recorded. I wouldn't want to assume that the Gospels are false, which would be as wrong as assuming that they're factually true. I just think it's more likely that the Gospel authors put that in, especially because there are many other signs of that type of addition.