[Orion27]

A friend of mine went out to a local restaurant for dinner and drinks. While sitting at the bar we noticed the bartender speaking flawless English with a European accent. It happens she was from
Bulgaria and a liitle town north of Sophia. My friend and I were engaged in political conversation and our conversation turned on replies of the bartender to simple but important questions. We asked if she knew who Ronald Reagan was and she replied after what seemed like a long delay
"an American president?" I was quite frankly stunned. We probed her sense of history, Zhivkov and the communists ect. There clearly was no clear sense of historical perspective. She volunteered a stories her mother told about the red tape and extraordinary lead times for large consumer purchases but nothing relating to the political or economic climate before her birth or much after.
She did allow how she resented Americans who did not appreciate the fact she paid her way to America rather than just coming here for the "money". She resented America because as she said and I quote "you want to take over the world". I gently tried to to stear the conversation to Bosnia and the other Balkan states to get an opinion on the almost Chirstian genocidal war on Abanian Muslims and American intervention but she seemed either unaware of afraid to offer an opinion.
Either way, it was obvious the ugly American looms large.

[Railroader]

People believe what they want, not the truth. Often you are simply wasting your time telling people the truth over and over. They WANT to be ignorant, otherwise they have to change their ignorance based beliefs and admit they were wrong. No one likes to admit they were wrong.

I have great respect for people who can admit when they are wrong.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I'm confused how this constitutes the end of history, especially if you're referring to Francis Fukuyama's essay which popularized the term?

It was some waitress at a restaurant. As a general rule I don't expect my waitress to have an impressive knowledge and/or interest of the economic or political climates you mentioned. Hell, if you ask most waitresses I see who Winston Churchill was, you'd probably get a blank look, let alone a correct answer.

In conclusion: I expect my cute, Eastern-European waitress to be trying to break into the pr0n market. Does that make me a bad person? Yes. Yes it does.

greg

[Kerrigan]

Apple is going out of business.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by Railroader

People believe what they want, not the truth. Often you are simply wasting your time telling people the truth over and over. They WANT to be ignorant, otherwise they have to change their ignorance based beliefs and admit they were wrong. No one likes to admit they were wrong.

Do you see the flaw in this reasoning?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Face Ache

Do you see the flaw in this reasoning?

I forgot to add the word "most".

PLEASE!!! Enlighten me oh wise and wondrous sage.

[Face Ache]

You want the truth?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Face Ache

You want the truth?

I'm man enough to admit when I am wrong. I've done it dozens of times on here.

[ironknee]

can you admit if bush made a mistake? a lot of peeps her would not

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by ironknee

can you admit if bush made a mistake? a lot of peeps her would not

I am not GW Bush. Why would you ask me to admit a mistake he made? I don't ask you to admit a mistake my neighbor made.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I'm man enough to admit when I am wrong. I've done it dozens of times on here.

Yeah you're alright actually.

Most arguments are caused by a failure to see the other side's point of view and reach a fair compromise. And people who spend a lot of time arguing their own POV (AKA The Truth) generally aren't terribly receptive to alternative opinions IMHO. They much prefer reinforcement of their own ideas. Which is why most people here spend their time ganging up and deliberately talking past each other, rather than with each other.

But this "truth" business is all highly subjective. It's right up there with Good and Evil. Sure, there's common ground we can agree upon and call "The Truth" but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

So in conclusion, that's why religion sucks and holy war is inevitable. It doesn't take a prophet to see that. And I'm okay with holy war - I figure I can shoot in any direction and win a kewpie doll.

[Taliesin]

I'm evenly split in my opinion about the US:

On the one hand the US lived new ideals like liberty for the first time, on the other hand that liberty proved very bad for the native americans.

On the one hand the US helped, late but still helped to defeat Hitler's regime, but on the other hand it supported and equipped Stalin's regime in the process.

On the one hand the US considerably helped to defeat communism, but on the other hand it dethroned many democratically elected governments throughout the thirdworld, in order to replace them with dictatorial regimes that are pro-US, and supported and trained many terroristic organizations, including a major ideological, political, military and educational support for radical Islamism from the seventies till the end of the Soviet-Union..

On the one hand the US dethroned Saddam Hussein's bloody Baath-regime, that the US itself installed decades before, but on the other hand it has no idea how to stabilise the country, making the chaos just as bad if not worse than Saddam's brutal ruling.

So, on a good day I would say, the US is full of good intentions, which have often very bad consequences for so many people and countries.

Taliesin

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Railroader

People believe what they want, not the truth. Often you are simply wasting your time telling people the truth over and over. They WANT to be ignorant, otherwise they have to change their ignorance based beliefs and admit they were wrong. No one likes to admit they were wrong.

I have great respect for people who can admit when they are wrong.

Of course, you aren't considering that you might be exactly who you are talking about. What if the truth you are trying to convince people of is not, in fact, the truth, but only what you want to believe to be the truth?

[Wiskedjak]

And, when I say "you" in the above post, I mean, in general, the person trying to convince others of "the truth", not Railroader specifically.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

And, when I say "you" in the above post, I mean, in general, the person trying to convince others of "the truth", not Railroader specifically.

Thanks.

A nice expansion on what I said.

Which is the truth

[Orion27]

Back to the original post. I always wondered how Europe could stand by, given an historical perspective on WWll, and not intervene to prevent a second holocuast on that continent.
Perhaps the Europeans, more nuanced in European politics and religion were content to see the
Islamists driven out of the Balkans. Today, I admit I may have been wrong when I supported US intervention in Bosnia. Certainly, my perspective since 911 has changed. Apart from being effete and morally bankrupt, perhaps the Europeans chose the path of least resistance to affect a sub- rosa policy of ehnic and religious cleansing.

[dialo]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

I'm confused how this constitutes the end of history, especially if you're referring to Francis Fukuyama's essay which popularized the term?

It was some waitress at a restaurant. As a general rule I don't expect my waitress to have an impressive knowledge and/or interest of the economic or political climates you mentioned. Hell, if you ask most waitresses I see who Winston Churchill was, you'd probably get a blank look, let alone a correct answer.

In conclusion: I expect my cute, Eastern-European waitress to be trying to break into the pr0n market. Does that make me a bad person? Yes. Yes it does.

greg

GFT

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

I'm evenly split in my opinion about the US:

On the one hand the US lived new ideals like liberty for the first time, on the other hand that liberty proved very bad for the native americans.

On the one hand the US helped, late but still helped to defeat Hitler's regime, but on the other hand it supported and equipped Stalin's regime in the process.

On the one hand the US considerably helped to defeat communism, but on the other hand it dethroned many democratically elected governments throughout the thirdworld, in order to replace them with dictatorial regimes that are pro-US, and supported and trained many terroristic organizations, including a major ideological, political, military and educational support for radical Islamism from the seventies till the end of the Soviet-Union..

On the one hand the US dethroned Saddam Hussein's bloody Baath-regime, that the US itself installed decades before, but on the other hand it has no idea how to stabilise the country, making the chaos just as bad if not worse than Saddam's brutal ruling.

So, on a good day I would say, the US is full of good intentions, which have often very bad consequences for so many people and countries.

Taliesin

Helped? Helped defeat Hitler? Come on now, give us our due. Without US arms and supplies flowing into Russia and England, Hitler would've conquered Moscow and bombed Britain into submission.

My take on America, by the way: There has been a great deal of flag waving lately in the good ole U

[Orion27]

Not only did we have better manufacturing than the Germans, we had better Germans than the Germans----- Eisenhower

I Think we can substite European for German these days.