[Orion27]

In the “About” section of the U.S. Senate website for Barack Obama, Democratic senator from Illinois and contender for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States, it states that Obama and his family “live on Chicago’s South Side where they attend Trinity United Church of Christ.” LInk: http://www.tucc.org/about.htm



Mission Statement:
We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

Commitment to God
Commitment to the Black Community
Commitment to the Black Family
Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.
The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.
A congregation preaching SALVATION.
A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System?
Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"?
Will some democrat here describe for me middleclassness and why I should disavow it?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

What exactly is "middleclassness", and why should anyone care?

And what the heck does any of this have to do with the Klan??

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

What exactly is "middleclassness", and why should anyone care?

And what the heck does any of this have to do with the Klan??

How many Americans would vote for a presidential candidate who was the member of a church that professed the following credo?

1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the White Community
3. Commitment to the White Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the White Work Ethic
7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of “Middleclassness”
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the White Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting White Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the White Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the White Value System.

Did I really have to spell it out?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

All you’ve done is illustrate how far into left-wingnutland the utter stupidity of political correctness has gone. Dredging out “The Klan” or “The Nazis” every single time race is mentioned has become so knee jerk that people do it on autopilot.

By your “logic”, Black Entertainment Television can be linked to the Klan, because *gasp* if you changed one word it would be “White Entertainment Television…”

OMG!! It’s racist!

Gee whiz! No one’s ever pointed out the P.C. created dipshit double standard of how you can make things appear ‘sinister’ by substituting black (or any other ethnic identifier) for the ohhhhhhhhh soooooo eeeeevil “white.”

Back on planet earth, outside of the P.C. numbskull mindwarp, why on earth wouldn’t a predominantly black congregation not focus on a predominantly “black” agenda?

It’s also just that- a Church group’s agenda- not the personal private agenda of Obama himself.

Yes, people realize that P.C. BULLCRAP has gotten to such a level that no one could attend a church that claimed openly to be “white”- but the reality is, many churches may in fact be mostly “white” and a politician may belong to it without being a card-carrying Klan member (outside of P.C. doofusland that is.)

In reality, it’s no more a big deal than the fact that there are mostly black, mostly Hispanic, mostly Asian, all Jewish, all Muslim, etc. etc. congregations, and *gasp* probably politicians that belong to them too.

This smells like some doo-doo dredged up by Hillary supporters who feel threatened by Obama. That, or if Republicans are resorting to this, then clearly many haven’t learned a damned thing from the Democrats and the left stuck in whining loser mode for the past decade by always harping on this kind of crap in reverse against Christians, white males, and anyone with any kind of faith or convictions they don’t like, and always taking everything out of context in order to float shoddy “Klan” comparisons.

At least find something of substance to dredge up against the man if he threatens you so much.

[olePigeon]

Good for Obama.

[Kerrigan]

Too bad Hillary's got him beat.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

Too bad Hillary's got him beat.

According to whom? Every poll I've seen puts Obama way ahead of her. She's one of the few candidates out there who can actually compete with Bush on divisiveness.

In any case, I doubt either of them will get the Democrats' nomination. Their primary role in this election will be to build a big base of followers and then endorse whatever rich white guy the Democrats nominate.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

All you’ve done is illustrate how far into left-wingnutland the utter stupidity of political correctness has gone. Dredging out “The Klan” or “The Nazis” every single time race is mentioned has become so knee jerk that people do it on autopilot.

By your “logic”, Black Entertainment Television can be linked to the Klan, because *gasp* if you changed one word it would be “White Entertainment Television…”

OMG!! It’s racist!

Gee whiz! No one’s ever pointed out the P.C. created dipshit double standard of how you can make things appear ‘sinister’ by substituting black (or any other ethnic identifier) for the ohhhhhhhhh soooooo eeeeevil “white.”

Back on planet earth, outside of the P.C. numbskull mindwarp, why on earth wouldn’t a predominantly black congregation not focus on a predominantly “black” agenda?

It’s also just that- a Church group’s agenda- not the personal private agenda of Obama himself.

Yes, people realize that P.C. BULLCRAP has gotten to such a level that no one could attend a church that claimed openly to be “white”- but the reality is, many churches may in fact be mostly “white” and a politician may belong to it without being a card-carrying Klan member (outside of P.C. doofusland that is.)

In reality, it’s no more a big deal than the fact that there are mostly black, mostly Hispanic, mostly Asian, all Jewish, all Muslim, etc. etc. congregations, and *gasp* probably politicians that belong to them too.

This smells like some doo-doo dredged up by Hillary supporters who feel threatened by Obama. That, or if Republicans are resorting to this, then clearly many haven’t learned a damned thing from the Democrats and the left stuck in whining loser mode for the past decade by always harping on this kind of crap in reverse against Christians, white males, and anyone with any kind of faith or convictions they don’t like, and always taking everything out of context in order to float shoddy “Klan” comparisons.

At least find something of substance to dredge up against the man if he threatens you so much.

By defending such reverse discrimination, you point to your own misguided political correctness. The point is just what does Obama stand for? Black separtism? Rejection of traditonal American values? Pledging allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System and the rejection of "middleclassness" does not appear to be a recipe for inclusion. Which was the point of the title of this post. The chuch is Klanish, separatist, racist and anti-American.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

Too bad Hillary's got him beat.

Hillary is being called out for being the two-faced liar she is by her OWN party.

[BRussell]

Haha, it's nice not to be on the receiving end of Crash's wrath for once.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

And what the heck does any of this have to do with the Klan??

That's what I want to know.

OAW

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

By defending such reverse discrimination, you point to your own misguided political correctness.

"Reverse discrimination" is another of those meaningless terms. It's basically saying, "If white people tried to do it and couldn't get away with it, then no one else should be allowed to do it because they're discriminating."

As has been pointed out about a million times, it's a crock. It's just a fact that singling out 'white' carries with it unpleasant baggage from a time when "whites only" was actually used in full racist/discrimination context. As a result, people can't really separate out the white race without it carrying all that baggage forward.

However, other races don't have any such baggage, and therefore can ID things by race, ala: 'Black Entertainment" a "Black Work Ethic", "Asian Studies", "Hispanic Community Center" whatever...

I'm not saying there's always a need for such (many times it can be silly, and redundant) but it's not racist in and of itself to do so. It's just a simple fact of life that I would think barely needs to be pointed out to anyone anymore.

There's simply nothing 'racist' about a black community organization (church or otherwise) having an agenda of taking care of its own. Taking care of self rather than overly rely on big government is exactly the message that conservatives always have for minorities anyway, so why in the world bitch and whine when it's actually carried out?

The point is just what does Obama stand for? Black separtism?

You're just trying the old tactic of "guilt by association". Once again, it's a church's agenda, not Obama's personal one. And on top of it, it's not even a racist agenda, nor anti-American.

Rejection of traditonal American values?

I see nothing on that list that's a rejection of American values. Even 'middleclassness' -whatever that is- I suspect is being taken out of context. It's probably along the lines of saying, "Don't become so spoiled by success that you forget about the poor." Most churches -heck probably all churches- preach something along that same sentiment.

Many Irish communities in America may have churches with strong commitments to Ireland. Is that racist? A Roman Catholic church may have strong commitments to Rome. Is that racist? Orthodox churches of all varieties have commitments to the countries their members came from. Why is a black church stating its commitment to Africa all of a sudden racist?

The chuch is Klanish, separatist, racist and anti-American.

Sorry, but that's simply unproven and silly. A black church doesn't need to pretend that it doesn't have more of a commitment to black people than it does to every other race, to satisfy anything other than someone's P.C. silliness gone haywire.

In the real world, black people helping other black people, through the church or any other organization, is more important than pretending that they must help whites, Asians, Latinos, or any one else equally as much. It's just a stupid construct of political correctness that has people thinking this way- everyone must make everyone else into 'tokens' of phony inclusiveness so no one is offended. It's crap.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

By defending such reverse discrimination, you point to your own misguided political correctness. The point is just what does Obama stand for? Black separtism? Rejection of traditonal American values? Pledging allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System and the rejection of "middleclassness" does not appear to be a recipe for inclusion. Which was the point of the title of this post. The chuch is Klanish, separatist, racist and anti-American.

And just how do you derive all that out of their mission statement? Nowhere in that statement are white people or any other group of people mentioned in any sort of exclusionary or disparaging manner. It's a black church ... with a long history of being just that. So why wouldn't the mission statement of the church be centered around the goals and aspirations of its congregation? So a church that has a predominantly black congregation and says its roots are in the "Black religious experience and tradition" is Klanish, separatist, racist and anti-American.? Ok, this ought to be interesting ... so let's go there shall we?

1. The Ku Klux Klan (KKK) is the name of several past and present fraternal organizations in the United States that have advocated white supremacy, antisemitism, racism, anti-Catholicism, homophobia, and nativism. Just where in that mission statement do you find any inkling of such ideologies stated? Oh and please use the definitions of the terms ... not the intellectually dishonest and simply tired old somebody-mentioned-black-so-it-must-be-racist argument.

2. Sep·a·ra·tist [sep-er-uh-tist, -uh-rey-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who separates, withdraws, or secedes, as from an established church.
2. an advocate of separation, esp. ecclesiastical or political separation.
–adjective
3. of, pertaining to, or designating separatism or separatists: separatist forces; separatist tendencies.

What "established church" are they "withdrawing or seceding from"? Where does that mission statement advocate "political separation"?

3. rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
[Origin: 1865–70; < F racisme. See race2, -ism]

—Related forms
racist, noun, adjective

Please explain how you could possibly get all of this ought of that mission statement.

4. an·ti-A·mer·i·can [an-tee-uh-mer-i-kuhn, an-tahy-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. opposed or hostile to the United States of America, its people, its principles, or its policies.
–noun
2. an anti-American person.

Please explain how you could possibly get all of this ought of that mission statement.

Or are you just talking?

OAW

[Doofy]

It's about time the black folks of America got over their racism.

Let's take this little snippet, for example:

A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

You utter 'tards. Do you not know that the reason why you're not in Africa right now is because your African brothers sold your ancestors into slavery?

[tie]

Doofy, what exactly is wrong with a commitment to Africa?

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

In any case, I doubt either of them will get the Democrats' nomination. Their primary role in this election will be to build a big base of followers and then endorse whatever rich white guy the Democrats nominate.

Too bad that's true.

[Moderator]

To be a member of any church is to be, at least somewhat, delusional. Virgin birth? Really?

Is it worse that they are committed to africa...or that they believe a guy actually once walked on top of water.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by tie 

Doofy, what exactly is wrong with a commitment to Africa?

Nothing, as long as you're not undertaking that commitment purely because of your skin colour. Which, let's face it, is exactly why they're doing it.

I see a lot of American black folks who tend to idealise the continent of Africa and have formed some kind of identity cult around it. It's usually those who've never stepped foot outside the US and almost certainly haven't been within a thousand miles of Africa.

It's all a big racist identity thing. "African American" gives a false sense of identity. Same as "Irish American" or "Italian American". Keeps you apart.

It's about time that you guys figured out that you're all simply "Americans" and dropped the ethnic identity bit. It'd work wonders for your social cohesion.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

It's about time that you guys figured out that you're all simply "Americans" and dropped the ethnic identity bit. It'd work wonders for your social cohesion.

Well if African-Americans had a history of being treated as "simply Americans" in this country then perhaps you'd have a point. Alas, that is not the case. Additionally, ethnic identification has its place just as national identification does. Both are valid means for expressing social identity. But clearly this is way off topic ... n'est pas?

OAW

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Well if African-Americans had a history of being treated as "simply Americans" in this country then perhaps you'd have a point. Alas, that is not the case. Additionally, ethnic identification has it's place just as national identification does. Both are valid means for expressing social identity.

Yep, just keep on perpetuating the problem under the same old excuse - that'll sort it.

Originally Posted by OAW 

But clearly this is way off topic ... n'est pas?

No, it's exactly the topic.

[besson3c]

Man, we've barely started with the election season and look how many far reaching Obama smears there have been... THe madrassa thing, this...

Gimmie a break guys, stop reaching so far to pull up some dirt on this guy, it makes for a really undesirable political climate which negatively affects us all, and frankly makes your attempts seem quite pathetic.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No, it's exactly the topic.

No ... the topic is Obama and the Klan. And how the mission statement of his church is supposedly "Klanish, separatist, racist and anti-American." The "African-American" vs "American" thing is an entirely different discussion.

Unless of course it is your contention that membership in any organization with the word "Black" or "African-American" in the name equates to all of that?

OAW

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Moderator 

To be a member of any church is to be, at least somewhat, delusional. Virgin birth? Really?

Is it worse that they are committed to africa...or that they believe a guy actually once walked on top of water.

This is the United Church of Christ, a liberal denomination most famous recently for running TV ads that they accept gays. I wouldn't be so sure that they must believe in things like the virgin birth and walking on water. Perhaps you need to become more familiar with some of the diversity in Christianity and not assume it's all southern conservative evangelicals.

[tie]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Nothing, as long as you're not undertaking that commitment purely because of your skin colour. Which, let's face it, is exactly why they're doing it.

Even if so, it doesn't hurt anyone. And I'm sure they are helping a lot of people who need it. In an ideal world, I might agree with you -- but this is really very far down on my list of urgent problems.

[tie]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Man, we've barely started with the election season and look how many far reaching Obama smears there have been... THe madrassa thing, this...

No no no. It was Hillary who started the madrassa rumor, didn't you get the full story?

And of course, a lot of people in this forum actually believed that; and probably still do even though it soon turned out that the original source had made it all up. I think Republicans are by nature highly gullible people.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by tie 

I think Republicans are by nature highly gullible people.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA HAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAH

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OAW 

No ... the topic is Obama and the Klan. And how the mission statement of his church is supposedly "Klanish, separatist, racist and anti-American." The "African-American" vs "American" thing is an entirely different discussion.

Unless of course it is your contention that membership in any organization with the word "Black" or "African-American" in the name equates to all of that?

It's all part and parcel of the same thing. Until you open your eyes and see that, America is lost.

Those 12 precepts listed in the OP are racist, pure and simple.
And anyone belonging to such an organisation is racist, pure and simple.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Seriously, what the hell is racist about anything listed in the OP. Please do explain.

It's gonna be a long 12+ years of Republican/conservative defeat if conservatives start adopting all the worst tactics of liberals and whining about racism every time the words black or white are mentioned, and throwing the Klan/Nazi/Racist/Sexist/Homophobe charges around every single time they disagree with something. Simply unbelievable.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Seriously, what the hell is racist about anything listed in the OP. Please do explain.

If you have to ask, then your country is FUBAR.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

If you have to ask, then your country is FUBAR.

Riight, the country is FUBAR because of the agenda of whatever Church Obama belongs to.

Now, granted, the country may be FUBAR afterall, but I'd say that Obama's Church agenda is pretty low on the scale of reasons why.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Now, granted, the country may be FUBAR afterall, but I'd say that Obama's Church agenda is pretty low on the scale of reasons why.

Nope. The solidarity of America is pretty high on the agenda. Or should be - especially after the recent happenings in the political sphere.

Obama's church coming out with crap like that is indicative of a fairly major social problem. It's the very extreme tip of a very large iceberg.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Nope. The solidarity of America is pretty high on the agenda. Or should be - especially after the recent happenings in the political sphere.

So once again, blacks perusing education, excellence, work ethic, self discipline and self respect, etc. are anti American solidarity simply because black people openly recognize that they actually are... *GASP!* ... black! I guess they should deny the obvious so someone won't get offended and wet their panties over it! Excuse me while I laugh!

Obama's church coming out with crap like that...

Maybe I read it wrong, but didn't they come out with "crap like that..." something like 26 years ago?! In the meantime, America hasn't ceased to exist as far as I can tell.

[OldManMac]

Watch out, Crash, now they're going to come out with the old "slippery slope" argument. It's really quite sad about how so paranoid and insecure some people are. Everybody's always out to get them.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

So once again, blacks perusing education, excellence, work ethic, self discipline and self respect, etc. are anti American solidarity simply because black people openly recognize that they actually are... *GASP!* ... black! I guess they should deny the obvious so someone won't get offended and wet their panties over it! Excuse me while I laugh!

Maybe I read it wrong, but didn't they come out with "crap like that..." something like 26 years ago?! In the meantime, America hasn't ceased to exist as far as I can tell.

I find it difficult to reconcile statements like this:

From The Chicago Tribune, February 06, 2007, Column: Against Middleclassness? by Rich Lowry. “Vallmer Jordan, a church member who helped draft the precepts, said they were designed to empower the black community and counter a value system imposed by whites. ‘The big question mark was racism,’ he said. ‘Black disempowerment was an integral part of that historical value system. It became increasingly apparent to me that we black people had not developed our own value system . . . to help us overcome all we knew we had to battle.’”

Middleclassnes ( sic) in America: Entreprnurial, professional, higher education, homeowners.
The majority of Americans identify themselves, rightly or wrongly as middle class, which means they either are middle class or aspire to middle class values.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

So once again, blacks perusing education, excellence, work ethic, self discipline and self respect, etc. are anti American solidarity simply because black people openly recognize that they actually are... *GASP!* ... black! I guess they should deny the obvious so someone won't get offended and wet their panties over it! Excuse me while I laugh!

Bleedin' 'eck you people are dense.

Here's the original version:

• Commitment to God
• Commitment to the Black Community
• Commitment to the Black Family
• Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
• Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
• Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
• Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
• Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
• Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
• Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
• Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
• Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

...and here's the non-racist version which any organisation calling itself a Christian church should be coming out with:

• Commitment to God
• Commitment to the Community
• Commitment to the Family
• Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
• Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
• Adherence to a Christian Work Ethic
• Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
• Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
• Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Community
• Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Christian Institutions
• Pledge allegiance to all leadership who espouse and embrace the Christian Value System
• Personal commitment to embracement of the Christian Value System.

Honestly, you're so far gone it's just not funny.

I remember I had a black student once (I've had a few but this one guy in particular...)... ...He kept trying to make a point that he was black. Called his student band "The Coco Pops" (chocolate breakfast cereal) and kept going on about how black he was. He was banging on so much that in the end I had to say to him "Look, we can all see what colour you are. Those of you who've already got a tan are pissing off those off us who can't get one. So how's about you STFU and start being a musician?"

And that's the point. Keep banging on about how black you are or how white you are or any other crap which doesn't make a difference and you're perpetuating the segregation. Get over it.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

It's really quite sad about how so paranoid and insecure some people are. Everybody's always out to get them.

Unwittingly (and hardly surprisingly, since you're a man of restricted wit), you've just described that black church. Paranoid and insecure, whitey's always out to get them. So they band together under the "black" banner.

[OldManMac]

Make sure, before you to go bed, you check for a black terrorist underneath it.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

Make sure, before you to go bed, you check for a black terrorist underneath it.

You really do exist in a world of illusion, don't you?

[OldManMac]

I've made it through 59 years of reality, but thanks for your concern. Have a good evening.

[tie]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA HAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAH

Watch out Kevin, there are WMDs hidden under your desk!

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

This is the United Church of Christ, a liberal denomination most famous recently for running TV ads that they accept gays. I wouldn't be so sure that they must believe in things like the virgin birth and walking on water. Perhaps you need to become more familiar with some of the diversity in Christianity and not assume it's all southern conservative evangelicals.

That's certainly an improvement but....the general point stands....if we assume that to be Christian means to believe that a man named Jesus physically rose from the dead days after he was killed....and walked out of his tomb...then to be Christian is to be somewhat delusional.

So I say again....if we can accept people that believe these sorts of myths to be fact....then certainly that they are "committed to Africa" should not be a problem.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by Moderator 

That's certainly an improvement but....the general point stands....if we assume that to be Christian means to believe that a man named Jesus physically rose from the dead days after he was killed....and walked out of his tomb...then to be Christian is to be somewhat delusional.

So I say again....if we can accept people that believe these sorts of myths to be fact....then certainly that they are "committed to Africa" should not be a problem.

Having an arrangement with Africa is not what's offensive and not the point of the post.
It's the separtist agenda of the Church. I'm curious about what Black Value System they "Pledge Allegiance" to and what issues they have with the middle class in this country? Anybody have a clue as to the Black Value System they speak of? Is it the value system I see on BET?
Or the one Bill Cosby speaks of and gets shot down for pointing out the obvious?
Let's talk about their commitment to Economic Parity. Commitment to Africa-Economic Parity-diavowal of middleclass-ness.

Economic Parity-Black Value System- Liberation- Africa - Disavowal of the pursuit of Middleclassness-
Sounds like a manifesto of sorts. Sounds like middle class is a dirty word. Sounds kinda well......
Mutiple choice: Black, white, socialist, communist, entreprenurial capitalism.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

It's all part and parcel of the same thing. Until you open your eyes and see that, America is lost.

Those 12 precepts listed in the OP are racist, pure and simple.
And anyone belonging to such an organisation is racist, pure and simple.

Doofus ... uh I mean Doofy ... it's apparently time for me to break out the [b]stick figures[/b for you. So again, here is the definition of the term racism:

rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
[Origin: 1865–70; < F racisme. See race2, -ism]

—Related forms
racist, noun, adjective

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?db=*&q=racist

Having said that, please explain how the mission statement of this church espouses a belief in racial differences "determining cultural or individual achievement"? How does the mission statement espouse a belief in "racial superiority"? How exactly does the the mission statement foster or support "intolerance of other races"?

Now I could just leave it at that as I did in my post directed at the OP above. After all it does get to the crux of the matter like the other one. But I'll go a little further and say that you won't provide any reasonable and specific answers to these questions because you can't! And you can't because even Stevie Wonder can see that the mission statement in no way, shape, form, or fashion denotes anything that could be reasonably construed as "racist". No ... what we have here is an individual (that would be you since we are still in "stick figure" mode) who consistently misuses the term racist/racism. Or perhaps is uh, how shall I put this charitably ... "unfamiliar" with the use of a dictionary? Simply using the term "Black" or "White" does not equate to the definition of the term racist as you intimate. Being conscious of one's ethnic identity/heritage and being openly committed to the advancement and betterment of the community to which one belongs also does not equate to the definition of the term "racist". Please do us all a favor and make use of the following forthwith:

OAW

[OAW]

As for the "disavowal of the 'Pursuit of Middleclassness'" thing .....

My take on that is that it is not being against "entrepreneurialism, professionalism, higher education, homeownership". It's about being against the relentless pursuit of "materialism and consumerism". It's about being against sacrificing other non-materialistic values (e.g., community, family, etc.) on the altar of "keeping up with the joneses". Perhaps it can best be summed up as follows:

Mark 8:36

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

OAW

[Doofy]

You'd best keep that coupon for yourself OAW.

Originally Posted by OAW 

rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually (But not always) involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

This implies that the any work ethic other than the "black" one is somehow useless. So there ya go - differences contributing to cultural or individual achievement.

Originally Posted by OAW 

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

Hmmm... That would appear to be a policy aimed at providing skills to the black community whilst denying them to the general community. Sure smells like discrimination.

Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

So, just black institutions then? Sure looks like a policy aiming for a system of government which discriminates against the non-black community.

Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

And there we go again with the assumption that black values are somehow better than any other values, as pointed to in definition #1.

And the reason you're not seeing it, OAW, is because your country is FUBAR with regards to racism.

Here's a clue: If any organisation makes use of race (i.e. the NAACP or NAAWP) for any reason whatsoever, it's racist (for the non-racist form of those it'd be the NAAP). Until you figure that out, your country is lost.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by OAW 

As for the "disavowal of the 'Pursuit of Middleclassness'" thing .....

My take on that is that it is not being against "entrepreneurialism, professionalism, higher education, homeownership". It's about being against the relentless pursuit of "materialism and consumerism". It's about being against sacrificing other non-materialistic values (e.g., community, family, etc.) on the altar of "keeping up with the joneses". Perhaps it can best be summed up as follows:

Mark 8:36

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

OAW

Sure, but where is the white value system imposed blacks? Surely there are equally humble Christian whites? And you have not addressed this notion of a Black Value System. So, by their own rhetoric, they reject the White value system. This kind of philosophy has taken hold in Black communities which associates for instance, good grades in school as somehow white. Speaking correct English is white. Hell, they're debating whether Obama is black enough to be a truly black president. If you gave some of these people half a chance we'd be seeing the rebirth of the Red Guard. Just what is Black enough? Or too White, or too middle class? Sorry your explanation just doesn't ring true.

[Doofy]

For OAW and all the black bros having trouble with their own racism:

I wear tight clothing and high heel shoes
It doesn't make me a prostitute
I like rap music wear hip-hop clothes
That doesn't mean that I'm sellin dope
Oh my please forgive me for having straight hair
It doesn't mean there's another blood in my heirs
I might date another race or color
Doesn't mean I don't like my strong black brothers

Free your mind and the rest will follow
Be colorblind, don't be so shallow

[Dakar²]

That's somewhere on my iPod.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

That's somewhere on my iPod.

No he didn't just break out a Salt n Pepa song! Oh now that's just classic!

OAW

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by OAW 

No he didn't just break out a Salt n Pepa song! Oh now that's just classic!

OAW

That's En Vogue!