[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

We agree on cmd N in browsers, just for different reasons. You keep insisting it is a window, I that it is a new file/object of the app. Let's stop quibbling there.

Uhm, I said it is a browser, which is the basic file/object of the app. This is what it is, under the hood. It's only that when the user looks at this, he/she sees a window. Thus the standard practice among every Web browser I've used of calling the item "New Window".

Never did you say any such thing. At one point you said it should create a new HTML document, but that doesn't work since web browsers don't create HTML documents. That's for apps like DreamWeaver and the like.

If the command is New Window it should appear under the Window menu. Seems obvious to me, don't know why you are struggling with it.

I already explained why it shouldn't go in the Window menu.

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Am I correct in reading that you are now saying that you think Safari and Finder shouldn't have any "New Window" item at all?

How do you come to that conclusion?

Simple. You said:

How many times can I repeat that New under the File menu can only mean New File even if you are silly enough to call it "New Window"

Originally Posted by CharlesS

No, it was just to make things more logical. Such as moving "Quit" to the Application menu instead of the File menu (or are you dead-set against that, too?).

No, why should I be? It makes sense and is consistent.

Why, that's simple! It's because:

Irregardless that is what it did and so was what people naturally expected.

Okay, I'm being a bit of a smart-ass here, but your whole argument for the old shift-click behavior is because that's the way OS 9 did it. It completely violated the UI guidelines, and it completely deviated from the way every other app on the entire OS worked, but "irregardless" [sic], that is what it did and what people "naturally" expected. By that logic, people should "naturally" expect Quit to be in the File menu, because that is what it did in OS 9. It's an anti-progress argument.

The "New" behaviour varies depending where you are and conflicts long used consistent behaviour in graphics programs. Including those Apple wrote.

Read the snippet from the UI guidelines that I posted in the other thread and you'll see why that is. List views imply a set of ordered objects. Shift-clicking an item selects all items between it and the currently selected item. In a graphics application, the objects do not have any order, so it is impossible to determine what would fall in order between two particular items. Therefore, you only get discontinuous selection. Incidentally, the same thing is true in the Finder, when in Icon view. When in Icon view, the files are unordered, so Shift gives you a discontinuous selection, just like in the graphics apps.

It is simple, logical, and consistent. The OS 9 Finder's behavior was none of those things. Since you are supposedly arguing for consistency, you really should drop this point - you're barking up the wrong tree, and there is no way you could conceivably win this argument.

The consistency in OSX is now bad (see my list). So where did the change get us?

Assuming that this statement is true (which I by no means agree with), if OS X's consistency were bad, I fail to see how making it more inconsistent by giving the Finder its own, completely separate behaviors, would do anything to alleviate that problem.

As to Finder how do you get "massive, glaring exception" from cmd N creating a Folder, the only tangible thing Finder creates? ... and it did it long, long before there were any Internet browsers. This is the back to front thinking I was talking about.

Because a folder is not the basic file/object of the Finder application. Thus, it is inappropriate for Command-N to make a folder in the Finder. A browser window is the basic file/object of the Finder app, and thus it is the natural candidate for Command-N.

I don't care how long the Finder did it that way. That is actually part of the problem - the Finder was one of the first Mac applications ever written, so it picked up a number of behaviors before the standard behaviors were decided upon and written down, and those behaviors stayed that way because of inertia/laziness. Web browsers, of course, are not the only applications for which Command-N does something other than create a tangible file - there have been FTP applications, Telnet applications, and other types of browser/viewer/communication type apps in which Command-N would create a new session, new connection, new browser, etc.

In classical Mac we had learnt to expect certain results and could guess on extensions of that behaviour.

Except in the Finder.

In OSX I am constantly wasting time finding the constant exceptions to the "rule", whatever that may be today, and hence can not anticipate what new circumstances might require. Much like in Windows.

Except when it does follow the rule. Then, you complain about it.

[brokenjago]

Ok, um...

Start a new thread of you want to argue about what Cmd-N should do.

And stuff...

[songoku912]

I'm just hoping at WWDC we'll finally see what these "secret features" of Leopard are.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by songoku912 

I'm just hoping at WWDC we'll finally see what these "secret features" of Leopard are.

We could see them although I'm not 100% certain. Apple mentioned that by WWDC Leopard will be feature complete. They did not however explicitly say that the WWDC Leopard beta will be a feature complete release. Since devs are supposed to test their apps against the WWDC beta I guess it would make sense if the beta were a feature complete release. The 4 months between WWDC and Leopard's release are not much either, but I guess it will just depend on how paranoid Steve is.

[msuper69]

Man-made deadlines such as those for shipping software (or hardware) are artificial anyway and don't mean a damn thing. It's not like brain surgery, open-heart surgery or the motion of heavenly bodies where real deadlines exist.

All this whining about Leopard being delayed and Apple is neglecting the Mac is so ridiculous.

Get real people. It's no big deal.

[brokenjago]

That's what me, Simon, ChuckIt, and many others have been saying this whole thread.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by brokenjago 

That's what me, Simon, ChuckIt, and many others have been saying this whole thread.

Unfortunately there have been some fairly hostile rebuttals though.

[brokenjago]

Yeah, tell me about it! Hysterical.

"OMG MY APPEL IS LEEVING ME TO US WINDOZE!!!! THEY R ONY GUNNA MAKE IPOD!1"

Ok, maybe it's not that bad. But seriously. The Mac makes up 60% of their revenue. They're not just gonna drop Mac OS X, and the billion or so dollars they must have invested in it.

To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I think this Leopard delay is actually a blessing in disguise. Unless they've got a severe engineer shortage, Leopard looks to be a huge release. There's never even been close to as much as 30 months between OS X releases. Something has got to be taking up their time, surely? They just Killed Brushed Metal™ in the last build. Perhaps they're finally FTFF™?

Whatever it is, I'm very excited by this release, even if the only 'secret feature' is the new Unified GUI.

I just hope they don't pull a Tiger and release something that's quite buggy.

[Appleman]

The good thing about this delay is that in the mean time we can discuss what command-N should do, and what's the reason for buying an iMac in September 2006 and why the iPhone is great or not great etc.

[brokenjago]

[Minime2]

Don, just think what 10.4.11 would be like!

In response to your post, here is my gut feeling.

Read you load and clear. I am in the area of teleco consulting, and the business evolution for intergrated services mirrors what you are saying. It is going to be an interesting year.

Apple is a lean organisation, and cannot afford to throw hard cash away, the iPhone adventure is a huge risk, given the fickleness of mobile users. What counts will be integration AND content. Unfortunately many telcos have no idea that watching a film on a mobile phone screen is frankly a torturous experience at best, and music downloads, although proven to be a cash cow with iTunes, is old hat. No phone model is famous for its music abilities.

So the impact on Leopard could be more than a simple issue of resources then. One would hope that, better 8 core handling, which is mixed with Tiger, and a more exiting integration beyond text, image, video handling would pop up. What do you do for an encore after iTunes and the iPOD? I am not sure, but it would seem that an advanced laptop would go a way to make the Halo Effect of the iPod to the next stage, but that is thinking small, and offering features in Leopard that only 5% of the PC market would profit from in the iPhone seems somewhat off the mark. It was not done with the iPod.

Does AT&T offer what we here in Europe call a bundle of Phone/Wifi phone for home/office use with illimited free VOIP phone calls, with break out, to specific areas, Streaming of television, films and radio for the home ADSL (broadband) market? Would that not be more interesting for the Apple TV/Apple Extreme combination, especially as a NAS can be directly connected to the Extreme. If Slingshot signs with Apple, the Laptop access to streamed films becomes a reality via any wifi connection anywhere.

So the point of my rambling is the following. Ask yourselves how the iPhone, destined to a market where 90% of ALL users own MS based products, would make those people think about buying into Apple products (and I mean "Apple Inc" not "Apple Computers Inc"), and do not forget a perverse effect on the consumer and enterprise market, what one uses at work, is usually what you would use at home, and vice versa. (As a ex-MCT, that was a selling point for WIndows back in Win95 days). I can say with some authority, telcos are re-inventing themselves, and all are very close to each other in their offers. It is interesting that AT&T bought Cingular, and even more interesting that they tried to buy Italia Telecommunications.

A small delay in an operating system update, that in its current form today, is already lauded and envied by MS users including enterprice IT departments, is not a great deal, and the features already shown where "light" eye candy anyway. A good bottom up 64-bit multi core able OS, with strong hardware, with strong media streaming including home devices, already mainstream teamed with a major Global Telecom, with a strong entreprise and consumer client base certainly makes me salivate! So let them take their good time to get it right, it will, believe me, certainly be leaps and bounds beyond the MS attempts with Vista, Zune and Xbox etc... and sales of hardware will only be effected by the frenzied release of multi core chips, heck the Mac Pro is upgradable so go ahead and buy the new stuff guys.

In a word, do not throw out the baby with the bath water guys...

[rubaiyat]

Well I'm still hoping Leopard is delayed till 2010, so it is even better!

just as Vista improved with each delay.

[rubaiyat]

btw CharlesS I give you a long list of how Apple is all over the dartboard with its keyboard commands and you still insist we are going to learn the "New, Improved" consistency.

Continuing the nonsense that cmd N (under the File Menu in every case, except FileMaker Pro) creates a "New Window" just because the Next Programmers rewrote the rules to fit their own preconceived notion.

They just forgot to explain this nonsense to the User who is task oriented (unlike programmers who think in "Objects" and "Classes") and are no more conscious of windows than they are of paper when they read.

According to the Herman Melville Guidelines (HMG) whales are fish.

So if it's in "The Book", don't adjust the screen, adjust reality.

Since I got back I hear Brushed Metal is dead in Leopard. Bugger!, that was such a great, consistent idea!

__________________________________

...the Steve called the spin doctor
The spin doctor called the nurse
The nurse called the lady
With the brushed metal purse...

In came the spin doctor
In came the nurse
In came the lady
With the brushed metal purse.

"Windows," said the spin doctor,
"Files," said the nurse,
"Nothing," said the lady
With the brushed metal purse.

Out went the spin doctor,
Out went the nurse,
Out went the lady
With the brushed metal purse.

[Appleman]

...interesting,,,interesting...interesting...:

[JLL]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

btw CharlesS I give you a long list of how Apple is all over the dartboard with its keyboard commands and you still insist we are going to learn the "New, Improved" consistency.

New as in 6 years old now?

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

Continuing the nonsense that cmd N (under the File Menu in every case, except FileMaker Pro) creates a "New Window" just because the Next Programmers rewrote the rules to fit their own preconceived notion.

NeXT programmers who were ex-Apple programmers in the first place?

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

They just forgot to explain this nonsense to the User who is task oriented (unlike programmers who think in "Objects" and "Classes") and are no more conscious of windows than they are of paper when they read.

You didn't get the memo?

[rubaiyat]

Some NeXT programmers are a sub-class of ex-Apple programmers, who are in turn a sub-class of Apple Programmers.

6 years of inconsistent "Consistency".

The excuses never made sense. Just fix it.

[JLL]

They did fix it - 6 years ago.

Cmd-N for a new folder does not make any sense and never has.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

They just forgot to explain this nonsense to the User who is task oriented (unlike programmers who think in "Objects" and "Classes") and are no more conscious of windows than they are of paper when they read.

People don't notice windows? Give me a hit of that stuff; it must be good.

[Madrag]

Originally Posted by JLL 

Cmd-N for a new folder does not make any sense and never has.

Maybe it doesn't to you, but if you came from the OS 9 and previous (which I don't know if you have), and were used to command-N to create a new folder, what a non-sense it is to learn a different shortcut just because we now have a "home"...
I use the "home" 10 times less than the create folder shortcut, and IMH it would make more sense to keep the command-N as it were and use the command-shift-N for the Home...

At least Mac OS has a create folder shortcut

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Madrag 

Maybe it doesn't to you, but if you came from the OS 9 and previous (which I don't know if you have), and were used to command-N to create a new folder

I've used Macs as my primary computing platform since 1984. It took me maybe a week to get over that. I can understand if it takes some people longer, but you can't expect something to always work a certain way just because that's how a previous OS did it. That's like saying, "Windows has the menubar attached to documents — Mac OS X NEEDS to do that" or "The original Macintosh system didn't actually remove disks when you chose Eject — Mac OS X NEEDS to do that." The fact that you personally are used to something doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way of doing things.

Originally Posted by Madrag 

what a non-sense it is to learn a different shortcut just because we now have a "home"...

That doesn't really have anything to do with it. The shortcut for your home folder is command-shift-H. New Finder windows open to your home folder by default, but it can be set to open any place in your computer. The point is that command-N opens a new browser window. The original Finder was not really a browser-type app, so the idea of opening a new window wasn't really meaningful. Now it is, and that's what most people expect if they haven't been conditioned to expect something else by a previous OS.

Originally Posted by Madrag 

I use the "home" 10 times less than the create folder shortcut, and IMH it would make more sense to keep the command-N as it were and use the command-shift-N for the Home...

You only say that because that's what you were used to.

I also find it hard to believe that you create folders more often than you visit them. Are you just creating hundreds of folders you never intend to view?

[Eug]

OS 9 is dead. Get over it.

Or do you think that Leopard is going to change CMD-N behaviour, and that's what's responsible for the delay?

[xi_hyperon]

Meh, it will be released when Apple's ready. Why do people get so wrapped-up and frustrated about an OS release?

[Madrag]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

(...)but you can't expect something to always work a certain way just because that's how a previous OS did it.(...)

I agree, but in this case I think it should have remained as it was, the rest is more than welcome.

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

You only say that because that's what you were used to.

true, I got over it but don't like it.

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I also find it hard to believe that you create folders more often than you visit them. Are you just creating hundreds of folders you never intend to view?

do I need to go to my home folder or use the command-N shortcut to "visit" the folders I've created? of course not. "You only say that because that's what you were used to"

[Person Man]

Those of you arguing over Command-N and Command-Shift-N in the Finder do know that you can change the keyboard shortcuts of any app in Mac OS X 10.4.x, don't you? Don't you? You can even add shortcuts for menu items that don't have them.

Here's how you do it:

1. Open System Preferences
2. Choose Keyboard & Mouse
3. Choose the Keyboard Shortcuts pane
4. Click the + sign at the bottom of the list.
5. In the sheet that drops down, choose "Finder.app" from the pull down menu.
6. In the Menu Title box, type "New Finder Window" (without quotes).
7. In the Keyboard Shortcut box, type whatever shortcut you like (different from Command-N. You can use Command-Shift-N if you want).
8. Repeat steps 4-7 for "New Folder" and use Command-N as the shortcut
9. Close System Preferences
10. Log out and log back in.

VOILA! Command-N now creates a new folder, just like it did in Mac OS 9 and earlier!

Apple will not "fix" this issue, as there is no issue to fix. Those of you who like living in the past can use the above steps and everybody is happy.

[Madrag]

I knew about that already and use it, the point wasn't about "how to get it to work", but more "why should we tweek it to work that way"...

As someone else already said, this topic has nothing to do with the delay, but we have until October to discuss it

Originally Posted by Person Man 

Apple will not "fix" this issue, as there is no issue to fix. Those of you who like living in the past can use the above steps and everybody is happy.

I love that kind of democracy: "I'm right, you're wrong, shut-up now"
Imagine that some app that you use everyday gets an upgrade and some of it's shortcuts are changed to something else (like adobe and macromedia did with some of their apps, for instance), and you don't like it? do you know how that feels like?, or are you that kind of person that says: "new shortcuts, ok, who cares, let's use it, it must make sense, otherwise they wouldn't change it, right?"?

[brokenjago]

I say we all hug each other and move on WITH THE ****ING TOPIC.

*Ahem*

Burdiet.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

btw CharlesS I give you a long list of how Apple is all over the dartboard with its keyboard commands and you still insist we are going to learn the "New, Improved" consistency.

Continuing the nonsense that cmd N (under the File Menu in every case, except FileMaker Pro) creates a "New Window" just because the Next Programmers rewrote the rules to fit their own preconceived notion.

They just forgot to explain this nonsense to the User who is task oriented (unlike programmers who think in "Objects" and "Classes") and are no more conscious of windows than they are of paper when they read.

I responded to your list in the other thread. It's no surprise to me that you don't want to respond to that post, but would rather pretend I didn't make it. Basically, it boiled down to this:

1. All of your complaints were about menu shortcuts that involved the Shift or Option key.

2. OS 9 rarely ever had menu shortcuts that involved the Shift or Option key, except in apps like Office that were designed for another platform. The OS 9 Finder only had one such shortcut, for Empty Trash, and that was a late development.

3. If OS 9 had made extensive use of Command-Shift and Command-Option shortcuts, it would have been fairly random, since unlike OS X's UI guidelines which specify how such shortcuts should be constructed, the classic UI guidelines say nothing except for "Sometimes, you can add Shift or Option to a Command-key shortcut".

4. Unsurprisingly, you provided absolutely no examples of OS 9's supposed consistency with regards to Command-Shift and Command-Option shortcuts.

So, once again, you are barking up the wrong tree if you are going to try to argue consistency here. Now if you'd like to continue this discussion, or if you'd like to argue further that end users only think in terms of "objects" and "classes" like NSDocument instead of obvious, visible things on the screen like windows, and then project those opinions onto me, then we should continue this in the other thread. I am not going to make any more posts here on the subject, as it is off topic.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Madrag 

I love that kind of democracy: "I'm right, you're wrong, shut-up now"
Imagine that some app that you use everyday gets an upgrade and some of it's shortcuts are changed to something else (like adobe and macromedia did with some of their apps, for instance), and you don't like it? do you know how that feels like?, or are you that kind of person that says: "new shortcuts, ok, who cares, let's use it, it must make sense, otherwise they wouldn't change it, right?"?

I'm not saying what Apple did was "right" or "wrong," or whether the change makes sense or not. I don't care either way whether or not Command-N opens a new window or creates a folder in the Finder. Some people obviously do.

The fact is that Apple changed it, and after 6 or 7 years they're not likely to change it back, no matter what anyone says.

You and rubaiyat prefer Command-N do what it used to do, create a new folder. You both feel strongly about it. That doesn't make your position right and everyone else's wrong. CharlesS prefers the new way of doing things, and he feels just as strongly about it. That doesn't make his position right, and everyone else's wrong, either. Some of us (like myself) don't care either way.

How would I feel if my favorite application changed the shortcuts? I would accept it and move on. And in reality, in the past that's all you could do, short of writing angrily to the developer, who could do one of two things: 1) change it back, or 2) leave it alone. And you would be stuck with it. But not any more. You can change things to your liking now, as I outlined above.

Now, Apple gives people a way to change shortcuts to whatever they want. That's great, because it gives people more choice. What if someone wanted Command-F to make a new folder in the Finder? Under Mac OS 9, they'd be out of luck! With Mac OS X, he's free to change it to his preference.

I'm not trying to force my views on anyone.

Face it: NEITHER side is right. Apple makes a decision either way, and one side or the other will be unhappy about it. I predict that even if Apple listened to you or rubaiyat and swapped Command-N and Command-Shift-N in the Finder now, there would be people who would argue that it should be changed back, that they shouldn't have to resort to the Keyboard control panel to "fix it." And they would feel just as strong about it as you do.

Frankly, I think neither side should continue to argue about this, because it's just a waste of time. No matter what Apple does, someone will be unhappy.

Accept the compromise, because it's a heck of a lot better than things used to be before.

[JLL]

Originally Posted by Madrag 

Maybe it doesn't to you, but if you came from the OS 9 and previous (which I don't know if you have), and were used to command-N to create a new folder, what a non-sense it is to learn a different shortcut just because we now have a "home"...

My first Mac came with System 7.1 and just because the Finder created a new folder with Cmd-N back then doesn't make it right.

Cmd-N isn't Home either as you seem to believe. Cmd-N opens a new window and you can set it to open whatever window you like as default.

[Madrag]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

(...)Face it: NEITHER side is right.(...)

I may have over reacted after reading your other post.
Now I understand your point

[CharlesS]

<ahem>

Yes, I know it's partially my fault that the "Command-N" stuff happened in this thread. I'm trying to right that wrong by asking everyone to please move Command-N related discussion here.

[brokenjago]

Yeah, seriously. Talk about derailing a thread!