Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

C.A.T.S. CEO · Jan 24, 2008, 05:38 PM

Declaration of war.

Is anybody else fallowing this?

Big Mac · Jan 24, 2008, 05:49 PM

More power to Anonymous.

Chuckit · Jan 24, 2008, 05:52 PM

I like how people always report on Anonymous as though it were an actual organization. Always happy to see the Scientologists ****ed with, though. Their practices are really bad.

chris v · Jan 24, 2008, 11:50 PM

scientology.org has been down for how many days now? At least 4 or 5. Strong work, whoever you are!

smacintush · Jan 25, 2008, 12:16 AM

You know, I enjoy making fun of Tom Cruise and his particular brand of wackiness, but just because I or you don't believe in Scientology doesn't mean it should be OK to harass them. Haven't we been down the road of harassing or oppressing (ok, it's hard to oppress a church with that much money and influence…) a group because of their beliefs?

Yeah, they seem to me to be a bit cultish, but they have a right to worship who and how they please.

C.A.T.S. CEO · Jan 25, 2008, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by smacintush

You know, I enjoy making fun of Tom Cruise and his particular brand of wackiness, but just because I or you don't believe in Scientology doesn't mean it should be OK to harass them. Haven't we been down the road of harassing or oppressing (ok, it's hard to oppress a church with that much money and influence…) a group because of their beliefs?

Yeah, they seem to me to be a bit cultish, but they have a right to worship who and how they please.

Its not about scientology as a religion, but what they do to people.

YTMND - The Un-Funny Truth About Scientology

chris v · Jan 25, 2008, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by smacintush

You know, I enjoy making fun of Tom Cruise and his particular brand of wackiness, but just because I or you don't believe in Scientology doesn't mean it should be OK to harass them. Haven't we been down the road of harassing or oppressing (ok, it's hard to oppress a church with that much money and influence…) a group because of their beliefs?

Yeah, they seem to me to be a bit cultish, but they have a right to worship who and how they please.

A bit cultish? Do some real reading. With a regular church, you might have a point, but Scientology was invented from whole cloth in the 1950's as a means of separating the gullible from ALL their money. This has been, and remains, its sole purpose. They're one group where the "freedom of religion" clause has really been abused to the extreme. They do real harm to people, up to and including murder, to keep their secrets safe. Bad, bad news, and they need to be stopped. If the gummint isn't up to the task, I for one, am grateful that the script kiddies are giving it a go.

C.A.T.S. CEO · Jan 25, 2008, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by chris v

A bit cultish? Do some real reading. With a regular church, you might have a point, but Scientology was invented from whole cloth in the 1950's as a means of separating the gullible from ALL their money. This has been, and remains, its sole purpose. They're one group where the "freedom of religion" clause has really been abused to the extreme. They do real harm to people, up to and including murder, to keep their secrets safe. Bad, bad news, and they need to be stopped. If the gummint isn't up to the task, I for one, am grateful that the script kiddies are giving it a go.

Agreed. Scientology is 'fair game'.

smacintush · Jan 25, 2008, 11:43 AM

Yeah, I don't know much about scientology except what I've read here at MacNN.

How do we separate fact from fiction? Sure some of it is obviously verifiable like the IRS problems, but what about the rest? How do we tie all of these things to the church itself rather than to individuals IN the church? I mean, we could condemn other religions too on the basis of the behavior of some of the people within the organization.

It's one thing to say that people in the church are using unethical or illegal tactics to take money from people, it's another to say that it is the purpose of the church itself to take all of people's money, and yet another thing to prove it.

Like I said, I haven't really read much and these are real questions.

Dork. · Jan 25, 2008, 11:58 AM

Go ahead and do some reading, then. You can start with the history of Scientology in Germany. IIRC, Scientology does not get recognition as a religion there because the government considers it more of a pyramid scheme than a religion

chris v · Jan 25, 2008, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

It's one thing to say that people in the church are using unethical or illegal tactics to take money from people, it's another to say that it is the purpose of the church itself to take all of people's money, and yet another thing to prove it.

It's been said, and it's been proven. Do some reading, really. They're hiding behind a constitutional amendment, and an extremely sturdy phalanx of lawyers.

Chuckit · Jan 25, 2008, 12:34 PM

It really doesn't have anything to do with believing or not believing. There are lots religions I (and probably most of the people who go by the name "Anonymous") don't believe in. But the official body of this religion, the Church of Scientology, seems like a pretty obviously malicious organization. What finally got these hackers to sit up and take notice was the Church's heavy-handed attempts to silence criticism through lawsuits — the Church of Scientology is famous for using this tactic against detractors with fewer resources than itself.

If you'd like to read more about it, Operation Clambake is a popular third-party site, and it includes a lot of primary and secondary sources. It's not involved in these attacks — it's actually opposed to them.

macintologist · Jan 25, 2008, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

You know, I enjoy making fun of Tom Cruise and his particular brand of wackiness, but just because I or you don't believe in Scientology doesn't mean it should be OK to harass them. Haven't we been down the road of harassing or oppressing (ok, it's hard to oppress a church with that much money and influence…) a group because of their beliefs?

Yeah, they seem to me to be a bit cultish, but they have a right to worship who and how they please.

Hear hear

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 25, 2008, 01:54 PM

Cool when they are done they should move on to Christianity as I don't see the difference.

lpkmckenna · Jan 25, 2008, 01:56 PM

While these attacks against the CoS website are illegal, I can't find it within myself to care.

smacintush · Jan 25, 2008, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Cool when they are done they should move on to Christianity as I don't see the difference.

Yeah, can we look into that past persecution, torture, murder, war etc. that the Christians are responsible for?

Chuckit · Jan 25, 2008, 02:15 PM

Only if you'd like to be punished for everything your ancestors ever did wrong.

Really, there's a big difference between attacking somebody to stop them from doing bad stuff and simply getting revenge for things that happened in the distant past.

olePigeon · Jan 25, 2008, 02:15 PM

As much as I enjoy making fun of Scientology, it's no less a valid religion than any other. I think the problem stems from Scientology not being so secretive about what the money is used for. Catholicism is a lot better at laundering than Scientology.

chris v · Jan 25, 2008, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

As much as I enjoy making fun of Scientology, it's no less a valid religion than any other. I think the problem stems from Scientology not being so secretive about what the money is used for. Catholicism is a lot better at laundering than Scientology.

It's not a mater of the validity of the tenets. We could ping-pong that till eternity. There is a serious difference in the thuggish tactics used by Scientology to extract ALL of the money from their victims. You're free to walk out of the Catholic church should you decide it's not for you.

The main difference between Scientology and, say, Heaven's Gate or Jim Jones, or the Branch Davidians is that the Scientologists had the smarts to not use a millennialist end-of-times scheme to draw in victims, and therefore the cult didn't necessarily self-destruct before it could mushroom into a major "religion." That was just shrewd thinking on ol' Elron's part.

olePigeon · Jan 25, 2008, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by chris v

It's not a mater of the validity of the tenets. We could ping-pong that till eternity. There is a serious difference in the thuggish tactics used by Scientology to extract ALL of the money from their victims. You're free to walk out of the Catholic church should you decide it's not for you.

Well, the Catholics used their money to hire lawyers to keep pedophiles out of prison. I think that's just as bad (if not worse.)

Eug · Jan 25, 2008, 02:29 PM

The question of a religion's validity is difficult to assess. Nonetheless I particularly dislike Scientology. They used to prey on people with mental problems downtown near where I lived, by constantly sending everyone pamphlets telling them to stop taking all medications, and to stop having anything to do with psychologists and psychiatrists. Not surprisingly, their Scientology church downtown was full of very, very odd people. While I'm not Christian either, I respect that the Christian organizations in that neighbourhood went around trying to get people off the streets, and didn't demand money from them.

ie. It's convenient that Scientology preys on psychiatric patients in particular, because they're easier targets. Yet they target only the ones who will have a bit of money. At least in my neighbourhood, they wouldn't touch anyone on the street for example that would need help.

P.S. I view the Falun Gong as similar in style in some ways as Scientology. And yeah, the canvassers here for Falun Gong are just as annoying.

The Mormon canvassers are also annoying, but at least they are well-dressed and often good-looking

and make an effort to learn about who they're trying to convert. It was impressive to see the Mormon canvassers working Chinatown - a bunch of Caucasian Canadian Mormons speaking fluent Chinese, trying to win over Chinese followers.

smacintush · Jan 25, 2008, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Only if you'd like to be punished for everything your ancestors ever did wrong.

Really, there's a big difference between attacking somebody to stop them from doing bad stuff and simply getting revenge for things that happened in the distant past.

Not that distant.

And it goes to the point of, did the behavior of the Christians in the past make them any less relevant as a religion? If we can justify eliminating the scientologists then the same could have been justified in the past.

And what exactly IS the statute of limitations on something like this? The old religions were oppressed, hunted down, tortured, murdered, lied about and discredited and for the most part are STILL viewed negatively. AFTER 1000 YEARS!

I mean, the word Pagan or Witch is STILL viewed as evil or degenerate, even in todays more informed world.

The fact that they were pretty successful at it makes it forgivable?

smacintush · Jan 25, 2008, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

The question of a religion's validity is difficult to assess. Nonetheless I particularly dislike Scientology. They used to prey on people with mental problems downtown near where I lived, by constantly sending everyone pamphlets telling them to stop taking all medications, and to stop having anything to do with psychologists and psychiatrists. Not surprisingly, their Scientology church downtown was full of very, very odd people. While I'm not Christian either, I respect that the Christian organizations in that neighbourhood went around trying to get people off the streets, and didn't demand money from them.

How long have the Christians been preying on the downtrodden? What do you think that the entire missionary effort is? When you go to a drug addict at a low point or a prisoner or a poor third-world country and tell them that the way out is to join OUR religion…what is that?

Of course most Christians don't oppose medicine the way scientologists do, but in the end it's almost the same. Using the downtrodden to swell your own ranks.

(and no, by you I don't mean you)

Chuckit · Jan 25, 2008, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

And it goes to the point of, did the behavior of the Christians in the past make them any less relevant as a religion?

In some cases, yes. In some cases Christianity was just a corrupt political organization — and it was treated as such.

Originally Posted by smacintush

And what exactly IS the statute of limitations on something like this?

The statute of limitations is this: If they are currently engaging in bad practices, they need to be stopped. If they have a spotty past but they've renounced it, no need.

Originally Posted by smacintush

The old religions were oppressed, hunted down, tortured, murdered, lied about and discredited and for the most part are STILL viewed negatively. AFTER 1000 YEARS!

As a follower of a religion that has about 2% presence in America, I feel fairly confident that I am not being oppressed, hunted down, tortured, murdered or lied about by Christianity in general.

smacintush · Jan 25, 2008, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

In some cases, yes. In some cases Christianity was just a corrupt political organization — and it was treated as such.

By whom? In case you didn't notice the Christians "won."

The statute of limitations is this: If they are currently engaging in bad practices, they need to be stopped. If they have a spotty past but they've renounced it, no need.

Great. I raped and murdered little girls when I was younger. I don't do that now and I'm REALLY sorry, so it's ok.

As a Buddhist, I feel fairly confident that I am not being oppressed, hunted down, tortured, murdered or lied about by Christianity in general.

As a Buddhist, you don't have a god or a deity for the Christians to oppose, but yes, these practices have for the most part died down to just lies and ignorance. A lot of Christians still think the Buddhists worship Buddha as a god.

Chuckit · Jan 25, 2008, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

Great. I raped and murdered little girls when I was younger. I don't do that now and I'm REALLY sorry, so it's ok.

People and religions are not exactly the same thing. It doesn't make any sense to punish a religion for past crimes. A person might become different enough that punishing them is no longer helpful, but the people in a religion will definitely change. It might make sense to go after the specific people who committed the crimes, perhaps, but holding a religion responsible for things that its past incarnations have done makes no sense at all. It's like shooting yourself because you once had lymphoma and your body needs to be punished.

Originally Posted by smacintush

A lot of Christians still think the Buddhists worship Buddha as a god.

That's more out of ethnocentrism than anything else, I think. Many people have trouble conceiving of a religion that isn't about God-worship.

chris v · Jan 25, 2008, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Well, the Catholics used their money to hire lawyers to keep pedophiles out of prison. I think that's just as bad (if not worse.)

I'm not excusing them for that. Why use institutionalized aberrant behavior on the part of an un-related organization to excuse Scientology of the crimes they are clearly committing? Have you got something at stake here?

smacintush · Jan 25, 2008, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

People and religions are not exactly the same thing. It doesn't make any sense to punish a religion for past crimes. A person might become different enough that punishing them is no longer helpful, but the people in a religion will definitely change. It might make sense to go after the specific people who committed the crimes, perhaps, but holding a religion responsible for things that its past incarnations have done makes no sense at all.

That actions of it's people may have changed, but the beliefs of the religion itself haven't changed all that much. They've just been watered down a little. They still believe that paganism is a cuss word and that sex is dirty and that gays are going to hell.

It's like shooting yourself because you once had lymphoma and your body needs to be punished.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 25, 2008, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

Yeah, can we look into that past persecution, torture, murder, war etc. that the Christians are responsible for?

Na but we can go after them for all the current horrible things they do as a religious institution.

I really don't see what Scientology does that is worse than Christianity. They might have goofy idea's about aliens but to me it is no stranger than woman being made from a mans rib and evil snakes making you eat apples.

Chuckit · 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

That actions of it's people may have changed, but the beliefs of the religion itself haven't changed all that much. They've just been watered down a little. They still believe that paganism is a cuss word and that sex is dirty and that gays are going to hell.

You're not wrong. Personally, I think it's a shame that they're so deluded, but they think the same about me. We all have our own opinions. As long as they aren't actively going out and trying to cause harm to people, I don't feel that's something we need to solve.

Like I said earlier, this isn't about disagreeing with Scientology. I disagree with a lot of people. I think the Church of Scientology needs to be brought down because it's an organization dedicated to harming people — not even accidentally, but intentionally — for its own benefit.

Chongo · Jan 25, 2008, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Well, the Catholics used their money to hire lawyers to keep pedophiles out of prison. I think that's just as bad (if not worse.)

Teachers are quickly out pacing priest as #1 pedophiles

Dakar the Fourth · Jan 25, 2008, 04:25 PM

This is ok if we're talking about hot 20 something female teachers with 16 year-old male teenagers.

Tyre MacAdmin · Jan 25, 2008, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by macintologist

Hear hear

Macintologist are you a scientologist?

Eug · 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

I really don't see what Scientology does that is worse than Christianity. They might have goofy idea's about aliens but to me it is no stranger than woman being made from a mans rib and evil snakes making you eat apples.

I don't know any Christians that actually believe that. Even the devout Catholics I know view that as just metaphorical.

Yes, there are fundamendalist Christians that believe that kind of stuff, but they represent the minority of Christians. This is in stark contrast to Scientology. Scientology's belief's are remarkably unified, and it seems to have a particular hatred for several aspects of modern medicine. I don't necessarily like everything in modern medicine either, but the goal should be to improve it, not to harm those genuinely in need of treatment for one's personal gain.

analogue SPRINKLES · 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

I don't know any Christians that actually believe that. Even the devout Catholics I know view that as just metaphorical.

Yes, there are fundamendalist Christians that believe that kind of stuff, but they represent the minority of Christians. This is in stark contrast to Scientology. Scientology's belief's are remarkably unified, and it seems to have a particular hatred for several aspects of modern medicine. I don't like several aspects of modern medicine either, but my goal is to improve it, not harm those in need of treatment for my own personal gain.

Silly stories aside such as Noah's arc and Jesus' dying and coming back Christianity is even worse than Scientology as Christianity's beliefs are directly mimicked by most governments.

Just look at all the fuss behind Gay rights for one. It gets even worse when Christian groups from the US started to run "no gay marrage" campains in Canadian papers trying to change the laws here.

ANY religion should stay far away from any government and especially not be the backbone to it like in the US.

C.A.T.S. CEO · Jan 25, 2008, 05:41 PM

For those who want to keep up with Anonymous' war, here is their site.

Eug · Jan 25, 2008, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by aS

Silly stories aside such as Noah's arch and Jesus' dying and coming back Christianity is even worse than Scientology as Christianity's beliefs are directly mimicked by most governments.

Just look at all the fuss behind Gay rights for one. It gets even worse when Christian groups from the US started to run "no gay marrage" campains in Canadian papers trying to change the laws here.

ANY religion should stay far away from any government and especially not be the backbone to it like in the US.

I don't share that view obviously, but anti-gay sentiment is not unique to Christians, or even religious people.

Fortunately, in Canada, the majority of people have no problems with gay marriage, and that includes a lot of Christians.

I'm all for the separation of religion and the state though. In fact, I was the first in my Grade 1 class to abstain from repeating the Lord's Prayer in school, cuz I thought it was dumb.

Mind you, I didn't raise a big stink about it either, cuz... well... I was only 5.

olePigeon · Jan 25, 2008, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by chris v

I'm not excusing them for that. Why use institutionalized aberrant behavior on the part of an un-related organization to excuse Scientology of the crimes they are clearly committing? Have you got something at stake here?

The economics are different. Christians don't have to worry about getting more money, there're always more people who will gladly give it to them. It's a Nazi Halo and everyone takes it at face value, so they give them more money despite their actions. Scientologists take the money, then go after you for more because don't want to lose you. That's also why they sue the crap out of anyone who criticizes them. If the member population were reversed, so would their roles in acquiring money.

olePigeon · Jan 25, 2008, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Chongo

Teachers are quickly out pacing priest as #1 pedophiles

Probably, but the Teachers Union isn't forking up millions of dollars in their defense, then just relocate them to a new school so they can continue porking little kids.

smacintush · Jan 25, 2008, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

I don't know any Christians that actually believe that. Even the devout Catholics I know view that as just metaphorical.

Yeah it only took 2000 years.

smacintush · Jan 25, 2008, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

I don't share that view obviously, but anti-gay sentiment is not unique to Christians, or even religious people.

No it's not, but surely you can see the danger in that view being reinforced by core beliefs of something as powerful as religion? It's one thing to hate gays, it's another to be told that your all-powerful omnipotent creator hates them too.

Eug · Jan 25, 2008, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by C.A.T.S. CEO

For those who want to keep up with Anonymous' war, here is their site.

That site makes baby Jesus' eyes bleed. And mine too.

iLikebeer · Jan 25, 2008, 06:15 PM

Jeez, some of you are really missing the point here. This isn't about religion. It's a lot of internet users pissed at an organization that has been misusing copyright law and the threat of expensive lawsuits to stifle free speech.

It's just a bonus that the organization is the bunch of loons known as the church of scientology, which has a recent history of misusing/abusing various laws and people.

smacintush · Jan 25, 2008, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Fortunately, in Canada, the majority of people have no problems with gay marriage, and that includes a lot of Christians.

And again, it only took 2000 years, and these people's beliefs are in contradiction to the scriptures. As long as the scripture says what it says it will be open to wacky fundamentalism.

Intolerance is a part of the religion.

Shaddim · Jan 25, 2008, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

Jeez, some of you are really missing the point here. This isn't about religion. It's a lot of internet users pissed at an organization that has been misusing copyright law and the threat of expensive lawsuits to stifle free speech.

It's just a bonus that the organization is the bunch of loons known as the church of scientology, which has a recent history of misusing/abusing various laws and people.

Hey you! Take your common sense and shove it up your tail pipe. We'll have none of that around here, dammit!

Shaddim · Jan 25, 2008, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

Intolerance is a part of the religion.

Blanket statements have poor coverage and leave your feet cold.

smacintush · Jan 25, 2008, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

Jeez, some of you are really missing the point here. This isn't about religion. It's a lot of internet users pissed at an organization that has been misusing copyright law and the threat of expensive lawsuits to stifle free speech.

Then why CoS instead of a corporation or a politician who is doing for worse in this regard?

smacintush · Jan 25, 2008, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Blanket statements have poor coverage and leave your feet cold.

It's in the scriptures, old and new testament.

Denial is not just the last name of a porn star…

Chuckit · Jan 25, 2008, 06:29 PM

Would you like to list these corporations and politicians regularly use litigation to stop people from expressing dissenting opinions?

iLikebeer · Jan 25, 2008, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Hey you! Take your common sense and shove it up your tail pipe. We'll have none of that around here, dammit!

Heh, just seeing some people use this as a springboard for fixing all the problems with religion is silly. Scientology is still new enough to be hurt, and of all the dangerous sects out there, CoS is one of the most powerful and reachable on the internet.

In a war like this, all of their bad practices will come out. It won't change the world, but it might help a few people.